> Just stay away from UnixWare, that stuff is just plain evil
What, and OpenServer is a fluffy bunny? No, I've worked long enough with the f**ing thing to know it's a dog of an OS. Probably not too bad for an ancient UNIX, but still pretty poor given the amount of devel and testing time involved.
scohttp crashes out after a few days/weeks ; printing gets stopped up and the entire print system must be restarted ; changing hardware is a matter of extreme tip-toes, since if drivers are not removed at the right time etc they may be IMPOSSIBLE to remove later... not pretty. The 'scoadmin' tools are nice, but can be fragile - and once broken, seem nigh-impossible to fix.
I touch our two OpenServer boxes here as little as possible. They run great, so long as nothing EVER has to be changed.
Fair. I wouldn't use it for colour prepress work yet, not unless the print shop accepted RGB jobs (maybe some smaller ones do - don't know). Please 's/Prepress/Newspaper Prepress/g' .
Alas, I'm not such a fan of InDesign's UI. Quark got that one right. Perhaps InDesign's is better to new DTP users, but for those who started in the days of cut'n'paste, Quark 'just makes sense' and InDesign seems like a lot of work to do anything. Perhaps more time on it will change the perception.
As for the XML format - it's nice to be able to manually fix in a text editor or (ideally) something that can verify the XML against it's DTD and allow you to edit it with problem areas highlighted. However, it'd be important for the app to recognise errors and fail to load the file gracefully, rather than the more traditional behaviour of 'die horribly'. An error message saying "Unclosed tag, line 99" or even just "document is not well formed XML, validate and fix" is a world of good in telling you where you need to start - and anything is better than 'An unrecoverable error has ocurred.' followed by the app summarily exiting. Many times one isn't lucky enough to even get an error.
GIMP would still need to understand the CMYK conversion tables and such for output, however. You don't want to have to send all your RGB image data via the X server to output it to a CMYK image, especially if client and server are not on the same host. You may also be dealing with multiple different CMYK output devices. It would be good to have X understand at least ICC colour profiles so that it could do display correction, but I'm not sure CMYK windows would really be all that useful. I'd like to see good system-wide CMS libraries for that - and from what I hear, that's on the way.
Then again, I seem to remember a keithp white paper involving ICC and XFree86, so perhaps that's not so far off either. Wow - XFree86/Linux coming close to real UNIX workstation colour, or even better modern Windows/MacOSX colour. Nice....
if you're really concerned about compatability with old documents from another app, you may have workflow issues.
We're finding that an EPS/PDF based workflow allows us to do ads in one app and happily place them on a page in a different app. What app was used to create the ad? Don't know, don't care. This is how it should be.
Document compatability was once very important, but can be considered much less so now that so many places are on a PDF or EPS based workflow.
Seriously, who cares. It's DTP - good quality, precision, and reliability matter. File compatabilty doesn't. Sure, it used to - but now we have PDF.
File format compatability would be nice, but isn't really important now.
Most places can just re-create their templates and go on as if little has happened. If they need to access old content, they'll usually be loading (say) ads saved as PDFs or EPSs for easy management - so that's a non issue.
We're currently happily mixing InDesign and Quark (Indesign for ad creation, Quark for page layout) with no issues, and we never open Quark docs in InDesign - we just don't need to.
Quark is not that cheap, alas. How many publishing houses need ONE copy of Quark? We have six, and we'd have more like eight but for the cost. Upgrading from Quark 4 to Quark 6 is currently on special at AU$1500/copy (~US$1000). This is not cheap.
Quark does appear to be much cheaper in the US. In Australia, unfortunately, there's an exclusive distributor arrangement kept in force by both parties refusing to provide upgrades or support for the US version when used in Australia. So we pay more than twice the US price for Quark. *sigh*.
They're aso total assholes about upgrades and such, they require so much information I'm amazed they don't just demand your credit history for the entire year and your business's accounting records, just for good measure.
Sorry man - find a better printer. The printer we deal with used to (reluctantly) accept Quark docs, but now won't talk to you unless you subit a PDF. Formats accepted: PDF, PDF, or PDF.
More and more people are going that way. It doesn't matter what app produced the PDF so long as it's valid and compliant with your printer's specs. Services like QuickCut help clients submitting ads confirm this, and apps like PitStop are good for prepress houses sending jobs to their printers.
I for one appreciate what you guys are doing, too. I'm syadmin at a Quark house, and we've got extensive experience with the "pitfalls" in PDF workflow with quark. Especially Quark 4, where it's PDF import is apallingly unreliable and quirky.
Scribus looks interesting, and I'll definitely be keeping an eye on it. Helping out if I can (mostly a non-programmer) and testing. What many people don't realise is that you don't have to pick ONE DTP platform. We're considering buing some win2k boxes with InDesign for ad design and layout. They'll just save PDFs or EPSs that'll be imported into pages being prepared on MacOS 9 machines with Quark. Maybe Scribus will be suitable for the same role someday:-) since this is the best way to test adoption of a new DTP package.
I'll second your sentiments on GIMP and CMYK support, and add a "please please please please" into the bargain. GIMP is not really comparable to Photoshop for prepress uses, but good CMYK support is the last major hurdle in that direction IMHO. Of course, we'd need some CMS support in XFree86 too for it to be really useful under Linux.
I might do up a small house ad in Scribus, slip it into our workflow, and see what happens:-)
OH, just one question. You mention that the Scribus format is XML - would that happen to be loaded with verification + good error checking? A DTP app that didn't just crash on damaged documents would be a godsend. "EPS Element 'bobsyouruncle.eps' is damaged and cannot be loaded" not "*blurk*The application QuarkXPress unexpectedly quit with an Error Type 2".
Craig Ringer
*cough*Colour Management*cough*
on
Scribus 1.0 Released
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
I'm sorry, but until the GIMP gets good CMYK suppport with at least ICC profiles and CMYK conversion tables, it won't be a contender for prepress. CMYK preview in RGB working space is also mandatory.
RGB->CMYK is not a simple file format conversion. The colour space changes, so your colour gamut does too. Colours that can be represented in RGB might not be possible in CMYK. You absolutely need to see this on screen as you're doing your colour correction.
GIMP also needs more real-time previews before it's a practical photoshop-replacement. In many ways it's amazing how close it is, but until it gets solid CMYK and colour management support it's nowhere there in one CRITICAL area at least.
Remember, when a single print ad costs more than an entire computer and all the expensive software on it, a grand or two can fall in between the cracks. It does actually matter, but everything is on a larger scale.
First: using Quark is not a privelege, it's a royal pain in the ass. Nice UI, too bad about the rest of the app. It has NO document verification or error checking so it just dies if there's anything wrong with the document. (Admittedly this is v4, maybe v5/6 have helped this - but I doubt it). I called Quark support and mentioned some document corruption problems we were having when working on files stored on network volumes - their answer: "Don't use Quark on a network." It's so scary it's funny.
Second: Try buying it in Australia. One grand US is ~AU$1500... but we pay $3500/copy because of an exclusive distributor arrangement. Quark won't support US copies in Australia, neither will Modulo Systems, the local distributor. Result: ripoff, consider InDesign. *sigh*.
What do you think of the behaviour of companies that (appear to) see themselves as entitled to enforce the law as they see it?
This is an increasingly common perception of organisations like the RIAA, BSA (ARIA and the BSAA in Australia, where I'm from) - that they are able to "punish" people directly. "The RIAA fined me...".
Are they actually able in some way to enforce their own "laws", and if so how is this possible?
2D support has been availble for some time AFAIK. It's hight-performance 3D drivers that are lacking - and the XFree86 team can't engineer those w/o a great deal of technical info, and probably a team of full time experts.
Ha! That's the great thing about LTSP (and thin clients in general) - "oh, it's not working?" [drop workstation on floor, stamp, throw into bin] "Don't worry, I'll have a replacement installed in 2 minutes and you can work on this machine here (with all your files etc) in the mean time."
I'll give my friendly local PC dealer a yell and see what they can do. I'm interested in small (micro-ATX or smaller) and cheap (small cases seem to be pricey as hell).
The VIA EPIA boards might be OK if you could get cheap case/PSU combos for them. Fanless or near so, nice and quiet...
You can pick up P100s with 32MB of RAM and a decent PCI NIC very cheap now. These make very good LTSP thin clients - trust me. I'm presently deploying a set of such machines, and the results are good so far.
The point: you don't have to have/new/ hardware to make intelligent new deployments. We're buying machines, but the vendors will never count it because they're second hand. Now, if I could get reasonable systems (say, a slow diskless VIA C3 with 64mb of RAM in a little box with PXE capability) for reasonable prices (no DVD decoder, thanks - I want AU$300 each), new would be an option.
Unfortunately, new computers seem to be in two categories - stupidly fast, cheap and crap, and insanely ridiculously fast, expensive, and somewhat less crap. I'm looking for slow, basic, quiet, VERY CHEAP, and not crap - and it's proving hard to come by.
Hence, we resort to old hardware like OEM P100s that fit our needs better than anything being made now.
It's not just the line, you know. The DSLAM on the other end of the line is Telstra, the authentication servers are often Telstra (depends on ISP), Telstra controls the exchange's internal routing, etc. They hide a lot of this from you by tunneling your connection to your ISP, but trust me it matters.
The more of your service is Telstra based, the less reliable your service. Personal experience only, of course (if I didn't say so, Telstra might disconnect me, after all...)
As for linux support - Westnet are quite good about it. I've often called them and quickly explained the problem, plus the things that make me think it's not on my end, and they'll say "yeah, cool, we'll look into it". Words like "linux," "syslog," and even "tcpdump" and "ethereal" tend to result in relief rather than rejection often. As in, phew, not another 'doze user where we can't actually debug the problem.
I've been known to say something like: "something is broken here, I'm getting line sync but PPPoE PADI requests don't get any answering PADO. I'd say it's telstra's PPPoE servers or the ATM links to your auth servers." and I don't get the response *blink**blink* "Umm... click start, run..." - ever. More commonly, it's "Oh?... clickety click... yeah, your're right, first we heard of it. I'll get someone to go and yell at Telstra now, we'll call you back when it's up." Y'know what? They call me back:-) . Need I say more?
Do you have 1 - 3 second pings when you're doing nothing, absolutely nothing, on your link except a ping?
If so - yeah, something is FUBAR. Consider a traceroute to watch where the holdup actually it. It's quite likely a Telstra problem (remember, your ADSL is mostly Telstra no matter who you sign up with).
Here's what I see:
$ traceroute dns.iinet.net.au 1 i014-016.nv.iinet.net.au (203.59.14.16) 14.049 ms 15.993 ms 16.342 ms 2 per-qv1-core3.iinet.net.au (203.59.49.175) 19.481 ms 17.817 ms 17.362 ms 3 203.59.49.170 (203.59.49.170) 19.041 ms 17.928 ms 17.354 ms 4 vlan1.core-sw1.wa.iinet.net.au (203.59.24.126) 17.643 ms 17.875 ms 17.060 ms 5 * * *
Hey! What bastard wrote a Windows virtual machine in java just for popups.... oh.
Windows users running IE might get tricked, but Mozilla is pretty good about ignoring offensive javascript like "don't even show a window border or close box" so it can be pretty hard to trick the user then. Especially on linux with a window manager where the window border is/always/ drawn, seeing a 'doze dialog within a dialog looks more than slightly suspcicious.
Senator Kate Lundy is trying to do something, but she's in opposition and the gov't telecoms senator is a drooling moron. You may have heard of him - senatator Alston, "the luddite".
The Gov't has a 51% interest in Telstra and rather likes the profits it gets. People aren't fine with being screwed around, but there's honestly not much to be done. After all, when your "representitives" ignore you...
How do they survive? Usually they'll sign up for web hosting or access to a co-lo. Unfortunately, co-los tend to follow similar traffic charging models, and can get very expensive very fast.
Small businesses with high internet access demands have a really hard time.
Essentially, yes. We have many ISPs who do ADSL, but unfortunately the LINES are controlled by Telstra, as are the exchanges. Telstra refuse to allow other ISPs to install network hardware in the exchanges, so the legal requirement to make the lines available to others doesn't really make a difference.
Essentially, if you want ADSL, you have to use Telstra's DSLAMs. There are a few exceptions, ISPs who managed to force Telstra to budge and let them install DSLAMs in capital CBDs, but they're expensive business-only services - their selling point is that they guarantee uptime.
Telstra also refuse to provide any QoS guarantee - they can be down for a month, and it doesn't really matter. They recently announced "voluntary compensation" for downtime, but its partial and they don't/have/ to do it.
What this all comes down to is that it doesn't matter who you sign up with, you go through Telstra's network services.
Here in Australia the usual dl limit is 3 gig! You can now get better services for 6 or 9 but anything above that tends to be on a pay-per-mb basis. The problem is that "per mb" is what it sounds like - about 10c/megabyte, which is insane.
Bytes (in terms of ISP infrastructure upgrade requirements) sure as hell don't cost 10c/mb.
The scary thing is that I have one of the better connections available.
> Wonder why you're being bytecharged That's the way its done here in Australia, alas, due to the successful marketing campaign of our main telco. They managed to convince people that "bytes cost money" and its been all downhill from there. As for using a "commercial" connection - we are, at work. There's actually bugger all difference in australia - the commercial ones charge you per megabyte and the home ones cut you off or rate limit you once you reach x mb downloaded instead. I don't really see what point you're trying to make, since they're all as bad as each other. What I really need is native ISP ipv6 support so I can route across WAIX (my local internet exchange) w/o hitting the byte-charged upstream links at all.
The only thing holding me back from a wider deployment is the need to tunnel ipv6 through my ISP, who doesn't route it. Due the braindead pricing of broadband services in Australia, where we get byte-charged heavily, there are local free-traffic "internet exchanges" (http://www.waia.asn.au/) to get around the problem.
If I have to make a tunnel outside my ISP, I get bytecharged even for traffic between work & home, for example, despite both being on WAIX.
As a result, the practical utility of ipv6 for me is quite limited until the ISPs here grow brains.
Slashdot Mirror
> Just stay away from UnixWare, that stuff is just plain evil
What, and OpenServer is a fluffy bunny? No, I've worked long enough with the f**ing thing to know it's a dog of an OS. Probably not too bad for an ancient UNIX, but still pretty poor given the amount of devel and testing time involved.
scohttp crashes out after a few days/weeks ; printing gets stopped up and the entire print system must be restarted ; changing hardware is a matter of extreme tip-toes, since if drivers are not removed at the right time etc they may be IMPOSSIBLE to remove later... not pretty. The 'scoadmin' tools are nice, but can be fragile - and once broken, seem nigh-impossible to fix.
I touch our two OpenServer boxes here as little as possible. They run great, so long as nothing EVER has to be changed.
Craig Ringer
Fair. I wouldn't use it for colour prepress work yet, not unless the print shop accepted RGB jobs (maybe some smaller ones do - don't know). Please 's/Prepress/Newspaper Prepress/g' .
Alas, I'm not such a fan of InDesign's UI. Quark got that one right. Perhaps InDesign's is better to new DTP users, but for those who started in the days of cut'n'paste, Quark 'just makes sense' and InDesign seems like a lot of work to do anything. Perhaps more time on it will change the perception.
As for the XML format - it's nice to be able to manually fix in a text editor or (ideally) something that can verify the XML against it's DTD and allow you to edit it with problem areas highlighted. However, it'd be important for the app to recognise errors and fail to load the file gracefully, rather than the more traditional behaviour of 'die horribly'. An error message saying "Unclosed tag, line 99" or even just "document is not well formed XML, validate and fix" is a world of good in telling you where you need to start - and anything is better than 'An unrecoverable error has ocurred.' followed by the app summarily exiting. Many times one isn't lucky enough to even get an error.
I'll have a look over the docs you mentioned.
GIMP would still need to understand the CMYK conversion tables and such for output, however. You don't want to have to send all your RGB image data via the X server to output it to a CMYK image, especially if client and server are not on the same host. You may also be dealing with multiple different CMYK output devices. It would be good to have X understand at least ICC colour profiles so that it could do display correction, but I'm not sure CMYK windows would really be all that useful. I'd like to see good system-wide CMS libraries for that - and from what I hear, that's on the way.
Then again, I seem to remember a keithp white paper involving ICC and XFree86, so perhaps that's not so far off either. Wow - XFree86/Linux coming close to real UNIX workstation colour, or even better modern Windows/MacOSX colour. Nice....
if you're really concerned about compatability with old documents from another app, you may have workflow issues.
We're finding that an EPS/PDF based workflow allows us to do ads in one app and happily place them on a page in a different app. What app was used to create the ad? Don't know, don't care. This is how it should be.
Document compatability was once very important, but can be considered much less so now that so many places are on a PDF or EPS based workflow.
Seriously, who cares. It's DTP - good quality, precision, and reliability matter. File compatabilty doesn't. Sure, it used to - but now we have PDF.
File format compatability would be nice, but isn't really important now.
Most places can just re-create their templates and go on as if little has happened. If they need to access old content, they'll usually be loading (say) ads saved as PDFs or EPSs for easy management - so that's a non issue.
We're currently happily mixing InDesign and Quark (Indesign for ad creation, Quark for page layout) with no issues, and we never open Quark docs in InDesign - we just don't need to.
Craig Ringer
Quark is not that cheap, alas. How many publishing houses need ONE copy of Quark? We have six, and we'd have more like eight but for the cost. Upgrading from Quark 4 to Quark 6 is currently on special at AU$1500/copy (~US$1000). This is not cheap.
Quark does appear to be much cheaper in the US. In Australia, unfortunately, there's an exclusive distributor arrangement kept in force by both parties refusing to provide upgrades or support for the US version when used in Australia. So we pay more than twice the US price for Quark. *sigh*.
They're aso total assholes about upgrades and such, they require so much information I'm amazed they don't just demand your credit history for the entire year and your business's accounting records, just for good measure.
Sorry man - find a better printer. The printer we deal with used to (reluctantly) accept Quark docs, but now won't talk to you unless you subit a PDF. Formats accepted: PDF, PDF, or PDF.
More and more people are going that way. It doesn't matter what app produced the PDF so long as it's valid and compliant with your printer's specs. Services like QuickCut help clients submitting ads confirm this, and apps like PitStop are good for prepress houses sending jobs to their printers.
... is what's most important.
:-) since this is the best way to test adoption of a new DTP package.
:-)
I for one appreciate what you guys are doing, too. I'm syadmin at a Quark house, and we've got extensive experience with the "pitfalls" in PDF workflow with quark. Especially Quark 4, where it's PDF import is apallingly unreliable and quirky.
Scribus looks interesting, and I'll definitely be keeping an eye on it. Helping out if I can (mostly a non-programmer) and testing. What many people don't realise is that you don't have to pick ONE DTP platform. We're considering buing some win2k boxes with InDesign for ad design and layout. They'll just save PDFs or EPSs that'll be imported into pages being prepared on MacOS 9 machines with Quark. Maybe Scribus will be suitable for the same role someday
I'll second your sentiments on GIMP and CMYK support, and add a "please please please please" into the bargain. GIMP is not really comparable to Photoshop for prepress uses, but good CMYK support is the last major hurdle in that direction IMHO. Of course, we'd need some CMS support in XFree86 too for it to be really useful under Linux.
I might do up a small house ad in Scribus, slip it into our workflow, and see what happens
OH, just one question. You mention that the Scribus format is XML - would that happen to be loaded with verification + good error checking? A DTP app that didn't just crash on damaged documents would be a godsend. "EPS Element 'bobsyouruncle.eps' is damaged and cannot be loaded" not "*blurk*The application QuarkXPress unexpectedly quit with an Error Type 2".
Craig Ringer
I'm sorry, but until the GIMP gets good CMYK suppport with at least ICC profiles and CMYK conversion tables, it won't be a contender for prepress. CMYK preview in RGB working space is also mandatory.
RGB->CMYK is not a simple file format conversion. The colour space changes, so your colour gamut does too. Colours that can be represented in RGB might not be possible in CMYK. You absolutely need to see this on screen as you're doing your colour correction.
GIMP also needs more real-time previews before it's a practical photoshop-replacement. In many ways it's amazing how close it is, but until it gets solid CMYK and colour management support it's nowhere there in one CRITICAL area at least.
Remember, when a single print ad costs more than an entire computer and all the expensive software on it, a grand or two can fall in between the cracks. It does actually matter, but everything is on a larger scale.
First: using Quark is not a privelege, it's a royal pain in the ass. Nice UI, too bad about the rest of the app. It has NO document verification or error checking so it just dies if there's anything wrong with the document. (Admittedly this is v4, maybe v5/6 have helped this - but I doubt it). I called Quark support and mentioned some document corruption problems we were having when working on files stored on network volumes - their answer: "Don't use Quark on a network." It's so scary it's funny.
... but we pay $3500/copy because of an exclusive distributor arrangement. Quark won't support US copies in Australia, neither will Modulo Systems, the local distributor. Result: ripoff, consider InDesign. *sigh*.
Second: Try buying it in Australia. One grand US is ~AU$1500
What do you think of the behaviour of companies that (appear to) see themselves as entitled to enforce the law as they see it?
...".
This is an increasingly common perception of organisations like the RIAA, BSA (ARIA and the BSAA in Australia, where I'm from) - that they are able to "punish" people directly. "The RIAA fined me
Are they actually able in some way to enforce their own "laws", and if so how is this possible?
2D support has been availble for some time AFAIK. It's hight-performance 3D drivers that are lacking - and the XFree86 team can't engineer those w/o a great deal of technical info, and probably a team of full time experts.
> Be prepared to have some spares
Ha! That's the great thing about LTSP (and thin clients in general) - "oh, it's not working?" [drop workstation on floor, stamp, throw into bin] "Don't worry, I'll have a replacement installed in 2 minutes and you can work on this machine here (with all your files etc) in the mean time."
I'll give my friendly local PC dealer a yell and see what they can do. I'm interested in small (micro-ATX or smaller) and cheap (small cases seem to be pricey as hell).
The VIA EPIA boards might be OK if you could get cheap case/PSU combos for them. Fanless or near so, nice and quiet...
Thanks for the tip.
Craig Ringer
You can pick up P100s with 32MB of RAM and a decent PCI NIC very cheap now. These make very good LTSP thin clients - trust me. I'm presently deploying a set of such machines, and the results are good so far.
/new/ hardware to make intelligent new deployments. We're buying machines, but the vendors will never count it because they're second hand. Now, if I could get reasonable systems (say, a slow diskless VIA C3 with 64mb of RAM in a little box with PXE capability) for reasonable prices (no DVD decoder, thanks - I want AU$300 each), new would be an option.
The point: you don't have to have
Unfortunately, new computers seem to be in two categories - stupidly fast, cheap and crap, and insanely ridiculously fast, expensive, and somewhat less crap. I'm looking for slow, basic, quiet, VERY CHEAP, and not crap - and it's proving hard to come by.
Hence, we resort to old hardware like OEM P100s that fit our needs better than anything being made now.
It's not just the line, you know. The DSLAM on the other end of the line is Telstra, the authentication servers are often Telstra (depends on ISP), Telstra controls the exchange's internal routing, etc. They hide a lot of this from you by tunneling your connection to your ISP, but trust me it matters.
The more of your service is Telstra based, the less reliable your service. Personal experience only, of course (if I didn't say so, Telstra might disconnect me, after all...)
As for linux support - Westnet are quite good about it. I've often called them and quickly explained the problem, plus the things that make me think it's not on my end, and they'll say "yeah, cool, we'll look into it". Words like "linux," "syslog," and even "tcpdump" and "ethereal" tend to result in relief rather than rejection often. As in, phew, not another 'doze user where we can't actually debug the problem.
I've been known to say something like: "something is broken here, I'm getting line sync but PPPoE PADI requests don't get any answering PADO. I'd say it's telstra's PPPoE servers or the ATM links to your auth servers." and I don't get the response *blink* *blink* "Umm... click start, run..." - ever. More commonly, it's "Oh? ... clickety click ... yeah, your're right, first we heard of it. I'll get someone to go and yell at Telstra now, we'll call you back when it's up." Y'know what? They call me back :-) . Need I say more?
Do you have 1 - 3 second pings when you're doing nothing, absolutely nothing, on your link except a ping?
If so - yeah, something is FUBAR. Consider a traceroute to watch where the holdup actually it. It's quite likely a Telstra problem (remember, your ADSL is mostly Telstra no matter who you sign up with).
Here's what I see:
Hey! What bastard wrote a Windows virtual machine in java just for popups.... oh.
/always/ drawn, seeing a 'doze dialog within a dialog looks more than slightly suspcicious.
Windows users running IE might get tricked, but Mozilla is pretty good about ignoring offensive javascript like "don't even show a window border or close box" so it can be pretty hard to trick the user then. Especially on linux with a window manager where the window border is
Senator Kate Lundy is trying to do something, but she's in opposition and the gov't telecoms senator is a drooling moron. You may have heard of him - senatator Alston, "the luddite".
The Gov't has a 51% interest in Telstra and rather likes the profits it gets. People aren't fine with being screwed around, but there's honestly not much to be done. After all, when your "representitives" ignore you...
How do they survive? Usually they'll sign up for web hosting or access to a co-lo. Unfortunately, co-los tend to follow similar traffic charging models, and can get very expensive very fast.
Small businesses with high internet access demands have a really hard time.
Actually, for more info have a look at
http://www.whirlpool.net.au/
Its a broadband news site, and has some real doozies in the archives.
Essentially, yes. We have many ISPs who do ADSL, but unfortunately the LINES are controlled by Telstra, as are the exchanges. Telstra refuse to allow other ISPs to install network hardware in the exchanges, so the legal requirement to make the lines available to others doesn't really make a difference.
/have/ to do it.
Essentially, if you want ADSL, you have to use Telstra's DSLAMs. There are a few exceptions, ISPs who managed to force Telstra to budge and let them install DSLAMs in capital CBDs, but they're expensive business-only services - their selling point is that they guarantee uptime.
Telstra also refuse to provide any QoS guarantee - they can be down for a month, and it doesn't really matter. They recently announced "voluntary compensation" for downtime, but its partial and they don't
What this all comes down to is that it doesn't matter who you sign up with, you go through Telstra's network services.
*sigh*
Here in Australia the usual dl limit is 3 gig! You can now get better services for 6 or 9 but anything above that tends to be on a pay-per-mb basis. The problem is that "per mb" is what it sounds like - about 10c/megabyte, which is insane.
Bytes (in terms of ISP infrastructure upgrade requirements) sure as hell don't cost 10c/mb.
The scary thing is that I have one of the better connections available.
> Wonder why you're being bytecharged
That's the way its done here in Australia, alas, due to the successful marketing campaign of our main telco. They managed to convince people that "bytes cost money" and its been all downhill from there.
As for using a "commercial" connection - we are, at work. There's actually bugger all difference in australia - the commercial ones charge you per megabyte and the home ones cut you off or rate limit you once you reach x mb downloaded instead. I don't really see what point you're trying to make, since they're all as bad as each other.
What I really need is native ISP ipv6 support so I can route across WAIX (my local internet exchange) w/o hitting the byte-charged upstream links at all.
The only thing holding me back from a wider deployment is the need to tunnel ipv6 through my ISP, who doesn't route it. Due the braindead pricing of broadband services in Australia, where we get byte-charged heavily, there are local free-traffic "internet exchanges" (http://www.waia.asn.au/) to get around the problem.
If I have to make a tunnel outside my ISP, I get bytecharged even for traffic between work & home, for example, despite both being on WAIX.
As a result, the practical utility of ipv6 for me is quite limited until the ISPs here grow brains.
Craig Ringer