*and* he uses this software instead of buying a copy from the local shop, how is this different than shoplifting a copy?
The whole software *piracy* issue is based on this very shaky assumption.
from www.m-w.com
Theft: 1 a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.
Notice that "taking and removing", is not "using and not using one you have to pay for." Notice also, the "deprive the rightful owner" part is != "deprive the rightful owner the potential income if you ever got around to actually purchasing it." Theft, as a definition, doesn't apply to software (outside of shoplifting it physically off a store shelf). Piracy is a loaded word used to help build FUD supporting IP. Software should obtain it's value *through* widespread distrubution, not by artificially controlling scarcity. (All IMHO, of course)
Honestly, I really don't think that 'game X is late' translates into 'game X is going to have less bugs than normal games'.
it very much does when those 4 months fall over the Christmas season. Blizzard releases good stuff, this was a decision for releasing a late product instead of a buggy one, which will most likely cost them some quick cash. I applaud their decision and wish more software developers were in a position (not desperately in need of income) and of a mindset to do the same.
I'm really glad my neurons defrag every night when I am asleep, because otherwise all the builds I've been checking out lately would really be fragmenting the filesystem in my head.
Is there a definition for this process? Empirical evidence suggests this is the case (Stay awake for six days and wait for the hallucinations, loss of memory and general whackiness) but is such a thing defined anywhere. I was reading somewhere that sleep also allows the brain to cool off (thinking causes excessive heat, notice the smoke:-O)
Just curious if anybody has ever seriously studied this stuff.
Texans drink sh*t beer (in Texas). I *loved* Lone Star in high school, but it does compare favorable,IMHO, to most schwag beers (MillCooBudLitDryIce).
Course, now I live in Fort Collins, CO with one of the highest concentrations of mircobrews in the country. I'm within walkin' distance to more than 100 different beers X-).
...id software. You might have heard of them. Games like Doom, Quake. Sometimes people play these games on "computers", over the "Internet", course, I'm from Texas so I'm obviously too stupid to comprehend anything outside the oil and cattle industry.
Jealousy is a dangerous thing, just because your state didn't have the balls to be it's own Nation doesn't mean you have to whine about it.;-)
I think the San Antonio Spurs are a basketball team, they might have recently spanked some hoodlum coach-choking yankees recently for some type of world championship, but I've learned to be distrustful of the media...
He can only benefit from being labeled, "the most hated figure in the hacker community."
Why be nice when saying "Yea I'm an a$$hole and fsck you!" will make you more money. I wish we had followed my original suggestion, and just ignored him. Which is what I'll do with this thread now that I haven't.
Radio Shack, sucks, IMHO, unless you want to build...radios. If they had partnered with Internet Shack it might be a worthy news item. FWIW, Headline News (Time/Warner) was also running 2 minute commerecials, err, news items on the partnership.
Hopefully this will start another trend. Every single good software company creates their own distro. Not good because of the confusion and compatibility problems, but really good because of the amount of competition that will be generated, new money pouring in, clueless newbies willing to pay 50$/hr for support (hint, hint), more exposure, more eyeballs, less bugs, more momentum, etc.
Quickly rereading this thread will help you understand that this...
What is important is that you somehow assume that communism must be an ideal society, whereas capitalism must not.
is the first mention of capitalism. You're reading in too much when you see the word Communism and think Anti-Capitalism. I live very comfortably off the knowledge in my head (doing things I enjoy) in America and I love it. I think capitalism works *better* than communism as a basis for social structure because it plays on our innate desire to have to a better life for ourselves and our children
However, like communism, it is not workable in the extremes because, well, very few things work in the extremes. Build an incredibly strong tall building that doesn't bend with the wind and you'll see what I mean.
That being said, I've never been to Sweden and don't know much about it, other than a tendency for tech and buxom blond lasses, which rather makes me want to visit and deal with any type of government the Swedes have found appropriate.
Keeping this as a discussion of software in general and Linux in particular (other threads have diverged...)
However, it occurs to me that basing your argument on the innate selfishness and laziness of humans on the whole is somewhat dubious.
this of course includes the situation of "given the chance to be so" without fear of loss of a continuing supply of food, shelter, and Oprah.
There is enough of this trait in humans (because of their animal roots) to make economies based on the strengths of the few impractical and ultimately unworkable. But that is given the "real world" where supply is limited and labor is finite. Enough labor is given out of the goodness of hearts and the need to be able to do THIS, that when multiplied by the peculiarly unworldly qualities of software, a workable situation is acheived and mankind as a whole (as far as software is concerned) can flourish.
So yes, I think the developement of Linux is very much like an idealized Communist community commune.com, but I also believe that such a community (at this point in human history) can only live long and prosper through the Internet. Techs like nanotech *might* change things, but think about nanotech + IP and you know it will take awhile, if ever.
That being said, the scenario of hackers all around the world, working hard into the wee hours of the morning, all without any hope of renumeration, would have appeared to me, had someone ten years ago put it to me, to be only slightly less implausible.
Implausible perhaps, but in retrospect it seems rather logical, given the peculiar aspects of the involved parties (and a good sign that someday we might really be so alturistic as to mine for the benefit of a fresh kernel. I know some people here would spend a day in hell for USB and DVD:-).
any "proof" I have is logical not concrete, but since this is/. it should suffice. We're sticking to theory and definitions, so I'll try to back up my simple 4 (thanks, mods)
socialsim: 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods also b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
communism: 1 a : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
Even from these it's very easy to see that the situation in Sweden is based on socialism (gov't control) vs communism (everything is owned by everyone). So your counter example is flawed.
Communism is Marx's ideal society (you should know this considering your nick) with socialism as a type of half-way point. Ideal societies rarely work in real life (I just said rarely cause it might have happened somewhere). Luckily we have a strange situation resulting from a feature of software (i.e. basically infinite supply) that makes it suited perfectly to the type of entirely altruistic ideals (and therefore socially unworkable) of communism. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Thanks to the collected hackers of the world who contributed their ability, I am fully able to service my need, so I give thanks to the collected hackers of the world who contibuted their ability.
But, unfortunately, this is NOT a good thing for Linux.
Why, please tell me how those horrible howling Chinese will taint your Linux. One of the things that drew me in was the total lack of PR needed to convince people that linux is a Good Thing. All the relations came from the public but that is a different beast. It stands on its own and it's only attitudes like this that will hurt.
How can anyone possible be negative about what are commonly referred to as repressed peasants embracing something as mind-expanding as an open-source OS? Even with national filters, some (out of a billion people there have to be a few) hardcore geeks who figure out how to get around it and show their friends. IWTBF, and so do people who figure out they aren't.
and this is why communism (in this sense) works, is the nature of the product. Infinite supply means you can be very altruistic and the many can indeed benefit from the hard work of the few. However it must be reiterated that communism does not work for models with limited supply, as humans on the whole are WAY too selfish and lazy.
Both Dvorak and I pointed out in the early 80s that copy protection was a quick way to sure death in the mass market.
Citing Dvorak as a like minded thinker is not good for credibility, IMHO.
Everything he takes exception to is based on the Rise of M$, not once it was in control. They used to be a good company, in that they didn't abuse their power, but at that point they didn't have that power. Later, when they did, they acted like any other corporation should act and capitalized on that dominance. How they got thier Monopoly is immaterial to the fact that they used it to harm the public, which leads us to my next exception for this rebuttall.
The real joke in this decision is the section on harm to consumers.
I'm sorry but there is no question that what I have experienced using M$ software has caused me EXTENSIVE MENTAL ANGUISH. And this is AFTER I learned how to use it. Were it not for the shackling EULA that I have clicked through sooo many times, they could be held liable (and no doubt some lawyer somewhere is thinking the same thing).
Last friday was a good day for everyone who ever has, but more importantly for everone who EVER WILL, use a Personal Computer.
(yes my grammer sucks, but then, I don't have an editor..)
Agreed, the danger of a forged digital signature is much greater than a normal one. Now the forger can have Total access to everything you own and all your info, all your cash, medical records, credit reports, transcripts, etc. AND they can all be accessed and stolen remotely, so even if they are "caught" you'll never see them face to face.
To put it in catastrophic terms: say Bob the Cracker figures out how to crack the sigs, and then loots thousands or even millions of people's life earnings from a desert island. All the while canceling insurance, selling your house, and basically making it look like somebody moving to a desert island.
The simple hassle of settling the whole thing increases greatly when you have the absolute remote access capability that a digital signature can offer.
sonique has some tripped out ones too (and way cooler skins). Great for that NT box at work or if your lava lamp is on the fritz and you need something to stare at.
also by far the easiest plugin scheme I've seen, very well done.
The camera's that is. I'm from Richardson, but now I live in Fort Collins, CO, where they now have cameras all throughout the city including parked, unmarked police vehicles that take snapshots of speeders and mail them tickets.
oh, and Disneyworld(TM,c,a,t) is very much it's own country. Walt got the state of florida to bend way over when he showed them how much money he was willing to invest and would eventually add to the states economy. IIRC they even have the right to build their own nuclear reactor. here's a quick link
Slashdot Mirror
*and* he uses this software instead of buying a copy from the local shop, how is this different than shoplifting a copy?
The whole software *piracy* issue is based on this very shaky assumption.
from www.m-w.com
Theft: 1 a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.
Notice that "taking and removing", is not "using and not using one you have to pay for." Notice also, the "deprive the rightful owner" part is != "deprive the rightful owner the potential income if you ever got around to actually purchasing it."
Theft, as a definition, doesn't apply to software (outside of shoplifting it physically off a store shelf).
Piracy is a loaded word used to help build FUD supporting IP.
Software should obtain it's value *through* widespread distrubution, not by artificially controlling scarcity. (All IMHO, of course)
They are at least as happy with their OS as you are with yours. It sounds like you're interested in denying them that position.
If you've never seen the light of day, the insides of a jail cell can be a most beautiful place.
Hi, I'm a taiwanese, i know you guys don't care about what my opinion is, but i'm going to give it anyway.
Honestly, I really don't think that 'game X is late' translates into 'game X is going to have less bugs than normal games'.
it very much does when those 4 months fall over the Christmas season. Blizzard releases good stuff, this was a decision for releasing a late product instead of a buggy one, which will most likely cost them some quick cash. I applaud their decision and wish more software developers were in a position (not desperately in need of income) and of a mindset to do the same.
I'm really glad my neurons defrag every night when I am asleep, because otherwise all the builds I've been checking out lately would really be fragmenting the filesystem in my head.
:-O)
Is there a definition for this process? Empirical evidence suggests this is the case (Stay awake for six days and wait for the hallucinations, loss of memory and general whackiness) but is such a thing defined anywhere. I was reading somewhere that sleep also allows the brain to cool off (thinking causes excessive heat, notice the smoke
Just curious if anybody has ever seriously studied this stuff.
Texans drink sh*t beer (in Texas). I *loved* Lone Star in high school, but it does compare favorable,IMHO, to most schwag beers (MillCooBudLitDryIce).
Course, now I live in Fort Collins, CO with one of the highest concentrations of mircobrews in the country. I'm within walkin' distance to more than 100 different beers X-).
dunno, if I should share this, but well, try not to LOL
...id software. You might have heard of them. Games like Doom, Quake. Sometimes people play these games on "computers", over the "Internet", course, I'm from Texas so I'm obviously too stupid to comprehend anything outside the oil and cattle industry.
;-)
Jealousy is a dangerous thing, just because your state didn't have the balls to be it's own Nation doesn't mean you have to whine about it.
I think the San Antonio Spurs are a basketball team, they might have recently spanked some hoodlum coach-choking yankees recently for some type of world championship, but I've learned to be distrustful of the media...
from an earlier post...
He can only benefit from being labeled, "the most hated figure in the hacker community."
Why be nice when saying "Yea I'm an a$$hole and fsck you!" will make you more money. I wish we had followed my original suggestion, and just ignored him. Which is what I'll do with this thread now that I haven't.
Radio Shack, sucks, IMHO, unless you want to build...radios. If they had partnered with Internet Shack it might be a worthy news item. FWIW, Headline News (Time/Warner) was also running 2 minute commerecials, err, news items on the partnership.
Hopefully this will start another trend. Every single good software company creates their own distro. Not good because of the confusion and compatibility problems, but really good because of the amount of competition that will be generated, new money pouring in, clueless newbies willing to pay 50$/hr for support (hint, hint), more exposure, more eyeballs, less bugs, more momentum, etc.
it'll give us a chance to escape...
:-s
is what you put on sand witches with honey and mustard. Mustard!? Don't let's be silly!
"trivial shit" might actually be the official definition of Microsoft Windows by 2005.
Quickly rereading this thread will help you understand that this...
What is important is that you somehow assume that communism must be an ideal society, whereas capitalism must not.
is the first mention of capitalism. You're reading in too much when you see the word Communism and think Anti-Capitalism. I live very comfortably off the knowledge in my head (doing things I enjoy) in America and I love it. I think capitalism works *better* than communism as a basis for social structure because it plays on our innate desire to have to a better life for ourselves and our children
However, like communism, it is not workable in the extremes because, well, very few things work in the extremes. Build an incredibly strong tall building that doesn't bend with the wind and you'll see what I mean.
That being said, I've never been to Sweden and don't know much about it, other than a tendency for tech and buxom blond lasses, which rather makes me want to visit and deal with any type of government the Swedes have found appropriate.
Keeping this as a discussion of software in general and Linux in particular (other threads have diverged...)
.com, but I also believe that such a community (at this point in human history) can only live long and prosper through the Internet. Techs like nanotech *might* change things, but think about nanotech + IP and you know it will take awhile, if ever.
:-).
However, it occurs to me that basing your argument on the innate selfishness and laziness of humans on the whole is somewhat dubious.
this of course includes the situation of "given the chance to be so" without fear of loss of a continuing supply of food, shelter, and Oprah.
There is enough of this trait in humans (because of their animal roots) to make economies based on the strengths of the few impractical and ultimately unworkable. But that is given the "real world" where supply is limited and labor is finite. Enough labor is given out of the goodness of hearts and the need to be able to do THIS, that when multiplied by the peculiarly unworldly qualities of software, a workable situation is acheived and mankind as a whole (as far as software is concerned) can flourish.
So yes, I think the developement of Linux is very much like an idealized Communist community commune
That being said, the scenario of hackers all around the world, working hard into the wee hours of the morning, all without any hope of renumeration, would have appeared to me, had someone ten years ago put it to me, to be only slightly less implausible.
Implausible perhaps, but in retrospect it seems rather logical, given the peculiar aspects of the involved parties (and a good sign that someday we might really be so alturistic as to mine for the benefit of a fresh kernel. I know some people here would spend a day in hell for USB and DVD
any "proof" I have is logical not concrete, but since this is /. it should suffice. We're sticking to theory and definitions, so I'll try to back up my simple 4 (thanks, mods)
from www.m-w.com
socialsim: 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods also b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
communism: 1 a : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
Even from these it's very easy to see that the situation in Sweden is based on socialism (gov't control) vs communism (everything is owned by everyone). So your counter example is flawed.
Communism is Marx's ideal society (you should know this considering your nick) with socialism as a type of half-way point. Ideal societies rarely work in real life (I just said rarely cause it might have happened somewhere). Luckily we have a strange situation resulting from a feature of software (i.e. basically infinite supply) that makes it suited perfectly to the type of entirely altruistic ideals (and therefore socially unworkable) of communism. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Thanks to the collected hackers of the world who contributed their ability, I am fully able to service my need, so I give thanks to the collected hackers of the world who contibuted their ability.
The fact that the US will trade with China but won't with Cuba
:)
U.S = capitalist pig dogs
China = 1 billion potential consumers
I could draw a chart if you like....
How do communist governments (in general or specific) deal with IP and copyright?
But, unfortunately, this is NOT a good thing for Linux.
Why, please tell me how those horrible howling Chinese will taint your Linux. One of the things that drew me in was the total lack of PR needed to convince people that linux is a Good Thing. All the relations came from the public but that is a different beast. It stands on its own and it's only attitudes like this that will hurt.
How can anyone possible be negative about what are commonly referred to as repressed peasants embracing something as mind-expanding as an open-source OS? Even with national filters, some (out of a billion people there have to be a few) hardcore geeks who figure out how to get around it and show their friends. IWTBF, and so do people who figure out they aren't.
and this is why communism (in this sense) works, is the nature of the product. Infinite supply means you can be very altruistic and the many can indeed benefit from the hard work of the few. However it must be reiterated that communism does not work for models with limited supply, as humans on the whole are WAY too selfish and lazy.
along with this guy
Both Dvorak and I pointed out in the early 80s that copy protection was a quick way to sure death in the mass market.
Citing Dvorak as a like minded thinker is not good for credibility, IMHO.
Everything he takes exception to is based on the Rise of M$, not once it was in control. They used to be a good company, in that they didn't abuse their power, but at that point they didn't have that power. Later, when they did, they acted like any other corporation should act and capitalized on that dominance. How they got thier Monopoly is immaterial to the fact that they used it to harm the public, which leads us to my next exception for this rebuttall.
The real joke in this decision is the section on harm to consumers.
I'm sorry but there is no question that what I have experienced using M$ software has caused me EXTENSIVE MENTAL ANGUISH. And this is AFTER I learned how to use it. Were it not for the shackling EULA that I have clicked through sooo many times, they could be held liable (and no doubt some lawyer somewhere is thinking the same thing).
Last friday was a good day for everyone who ever has, but more importantly for everone who EVER WILL, use a Personal Computer.
(yes my grammer sucks, but then, I don't have an editor..)
Agreed, the danger of a forged digital signature is much greater than a normal one. Now the forger can have Total access to everything you own and all your info, all your cash, medical records, credit reports, transcripts, etc. AND they can all be accessed and stolen remotely, so even if they are "caught" you'll never see them face to face.
To put it in catastrophic terms: say Bob the Cracker figures out how to crack the sigs, and then loots thousands or even millions of people's life earnings from a desert island. All the while canceling insurance, selling your house, and basically making it look like somebody moving to a desert island.
The simple hassle of settling the whole thing increases greatly when you have the absolute remote access capability that a digital signature can offer.
sonique has some tripped out ones too (and way cooler skins). Great for that NT box at work or if your lava lamp is on the fritz and you need something to stare at.
also by far the easiest plugin scheme I've seen, very well done.
The camera's that is. I'm from Richardson, but now I live in Fort Collins, CO, where they now have cameras all throughout the city including parked, unmarked police vehicles that take snapshots of speeders and mail them tickets.
oh, and Disneyworld(TM,c,a,t) is very much it's own country. Walt got the state of florida to bend way over when he showed them how much money he was willing to invest and would eventually add to the states economy. IIRC they even have the right to build their own nuclear reactor. here's a quick link