Well yes and no. Basically from what I can tell, this sounds like automation of ORM. Basically you take ORM, build functionality to automatically handle joins and then add in functionality like notes which is nothing more than another table.
It has it's use like Access has it's use but this goes back to the same old argument of ORM not scaling as well as perhaps an SQL layer in your application. Some small scale websites might make use of this and find it useful but running anything medium to large would be a bad idea. Enterprise would be completely out of the question.
But automation IS the future and this will be the way we eventually go. It's just going to be a while before running businesses off something like this is viable.
When a company like Microsoft 9 out of 10 times makes hostile gestures towards the open source community, are we supposed to run towards them with flowers and candy every time they screw up now and say 'we forgive you darling. lets go have buttsex on the veranda!'?
I dunno about you but I get screwed in the ass enough and I'm duct taping my shorts and sitting on the porch with a shotgun.
Ruby wasn't dumped by Twitter (and a ton of other developers and companies) because 'the UI part of the application essentially gets an insignificant amount of use'. It was dumped because they were using Ruby for a significant amount of BACKEND use. Have you not seen benchmark after benchmark after benchmark of comparison? It actually CAPS OUT!!! It has a plateau! While other spike and go up and down and scale with demand, Ruby plateau's and cannot accomplish more unless (as every Ruby develop explains) you throw more hardware at it. And again, it requires 2-3 times the number of machines (and with that extra sys admins and maintenance) to do in Ruby what you can do in any other language.
And for the record, my brother is a military contractor in Virginia and has offered me many a job with Pentagon contractors; I can build million dollar apps in Perl/Python/PHP too. The dollar amount means nothing. We are talking about the ability to scale with growth and demand and Ruby has never been able to do that.
That is the one thing you have been avoiding this entire time. Sure you can build small apps for the backend that don't get much usage. Small websites for mom-n-pops that don't get much traffic. You can build apps that hardly anyone uses in Ruby. That's neat. It's a fun toy. I build apps that millions of people use. And for that I need a real language that can scale with the business and application demands.
Yes. Exactly. Small mom-n-pop. And thats what Ruby is good at. I on the other hand am a real developer and have to plan for uncontrolled spikes in traffic and growth over time. We can build an app small to begin and add more and more functionality but we have to plan for how that app will scale with the architecture. Otherwise we are just building a throwaway app and the companies investment in that app is money lost since they (like Twitter) will just end up recoding in some other language.
Ruby shows promise and is a good language but by obfuscating so much, it does alot more backend processing that the developer could be deciding how to do. This of course may take SLIGHTLY more development time but you get more speed and scalability. Effectively, for every 1 minute of development time you save, you lose 1 second on every page load which is why you keep having to throw more servers at Ruby (and more sys admins at those servers), etc etc.
It's a scalability nightmare. So yes, Ruby is wonderful for mom-n-pops but I'd never use it for anything that I wanted to grow.
You've never worked in mixed shops before apparently. You've also never worked in shops where people have changed architectures EVER. You also apparentl;y only work for small mom and pops where purchasing is done by the same guy who does administration and nothing ever changes hands. Must be nice to work in such a small shop with a heterogenous environment. The rest of the world envies you.
You seem to be missing what is being said and helping to prove my point at the same time. People who do purchasing are often not the same people doing the maintenance and will often replace Windows installs. And as you pointed out, servers do not always come with OS's. Bu people who report high Windows numbers on servers vs Linux are usually reporting SALES numbers (Windows server sales vs Redhat server sales) which means nothing because when you actually look at the number of server installs of Linux/BSD, they far outnumber Windows.
I had a lowend shared server running PHPulse, the fastest framework for PHP (whose benchmarks also beat Ruby on Rails by a factor of 5-8). Anyway, I used to get 3 million hits a month on that shared server and it never broke a sweat and the pages loaded instantly. I didn't need extra servers, I didn't need a dedicated server and we didn't need extra memory. The company that maintained the server did bitch that I got alot of traffic and tried to get me to move to another server because of the bandwidth but I was still within my bandwidth limit so I wasn't gonna move.
My point being, PHP, Perl and Python grow with your site and your company. You don't want to have to recode everything because the language cant keep up. While you have worked for alot of mom and pops, I have worked for alot of companies that have grown and need to have their architecture grow with them without hitting a brick wall. Thats the inherent problem with RUBY and the one they HAVE to solve before they achieve mass adoption within mid-to-enterprise. Otherwise it is just for mom-n-pop shops.
Those that do still get reported and confused for installs. So when people quote Windows server numbers, they are usually quoting sales figures and not actual install numbers. That is the point I am making.
You are thinking SERVER SALES... I'm quoting INSTALLS. Alot of servers that are sold with Windows on it get it removed to get BSD or another flavor of Linux installed; BSD/Debian/Slackware are not options from Dell after all and yet they are still within the top ten of server installs.
90% of WHAT market? 80% of server installs are BSD/Linux. 25% of browsers are Firefox. 30% of the databases are MySQL and another 40% are Oracle. 35% of laptop sales go to Apple. They only have %45 of the mobile phone market using their product. So are you talking in generalizations or where you speaking about any specific market that they are supposed to dominate?
Did you also want to point out all those markets that are shrinking. Laptop sales, windows mobile sales (and contracts), government contracts, web browser usage, server usage, corporate sales, office sales, etc etc. Their sales and market share in just about every sector EXCEPT games is shrinking. You can still use your Microsoft computer to play games.:)
The phrase has meaning that you fail to perceive because you are not taking it in the correct context. But your logic has never been your strong suit or else you might have become a developer instead of a sys admin.
Yeah and your vehement defense of RUBY in the face of clear denial defines you as a RUBY fanatic. Amazing how your own logic works on you as well. if thats what you call it.
Oh and as a self professed sys admin, you know jack shit about development. Why don't you go write a BASH script or something and leave development to people who know what they are talking about? Sheesh. It's like getting preached to on rocket science by a car mechanic.
And I never said I was a PHP dev. You did. I happen to work in C and Java and PHP. And you fail to see that what you are explaining is only one tiny aspect of the puzzle. Much like your brain. You rant about JRuby (while better because it is based on Java) is still crap because it is an interpretted LAYER. See? You THINK you are explaining things but understand VERY LITTLE. Thats why those benchmarks for JRUBY show it still being worse than PHP, PYTHON and PERL.
I love it when people who have been programming for a year decided to flame on slashdot because it shows them for the tards they are.
Uh huh. Ininformed bullshit. Riiiight. I spout what everyone else 'spouts', what the development community 'spouts', what enterprises 'spout', what benchmarks 'spout' and like all RUBY fanatics, you throw a tantrum?
Did I expect anything less than a tantrum from someone using a toy language?
Thats the funny thing. Whe Twitter was using Ruby, the Ruby community said 'Look at Twitter'. When Twitter dumped Ruby and said it didn't scaled along with everyone else, the Twitter community said 'ignore Twitter, they don't understand anything'.
You can't have you cake and eat it too. Either the company you touted as a prime example of Ruby's capabilities showed that Ruby couldn't scale or you effectively showed that the Ruby community is a bunch of blowhards who cannot accept cold hard facts.
Either way, the honeymoon and hype are over. Ruby's market share will not ebb and wane like all other languages based upon it capabilities rather than insane speculation.
Funny, isn't this what Twitter thought too before dumping RUBY entirely? Wasn't this what Twitter thought as they threw more and more hardware at the problem and still could not solve the problem? Didn't Twitter end up spending more on IT to administer 2-3 times the numbers of servers that it would take to do the same thing in Python, PHP or Java?
Yeah, throw hardware at it. That's a viable solution for a company. As long as you aren't thinking about who has to maintain all those servers and the fact that RUBY STILL DOESN"T SCALE.
EEEH! Try again. Development speed is lost as complexity increases. Development speed is again attained through a framework (as all languages can also attain). Ruby has no inherent speed advantages for development. This is an amazing con by RAILS people and anyone can develop well and fast who understands and knows a framework well. I myself use the PHPulse framework and can crank out new CRUD functionality in about 30 minutes to an hour.
Why can't they make a language, or extend a language like Ruby, such that one can program it as a scripting language, but then add verbosity optionally
They did. It's called PHP. Notice how much better it scales in that benchmark.
Slashdot Mirror
Exactly. He's 'sci-fi' in the loosest sense of the word.
Yeah well, he's no Asimov, that's for sure.
Well yes and no. Basically from what I can tell, this sounds like automation of ORM. Basically you take ORM, build functionality to automatically handle joins and then add in functionality like notes which is nothing more than another table.
It has it's use like Access has it's use but this goes back to the same old argument of ORM not scaling as well as perhaps an SQL layer in your application. Some small scale websites might make use of this and find it useful but running anything medium to large would be a bad idea. Enterprise would be completely out of the question.
But automation IS the future and this will be the way we eventually go. It's just going to be a while before running businesses off something like this is viable.
When a company like Microsoft 9 out of 10 times makes hostile gestures towards the open source community, are we supposed to run towards them with flowers and candy every time they screw up now and say 'we forgive you darling. lets go have buttsex on the veranda!'?
I dunno about you but I get screwed in the ass enough and I'm duct taping my shorts and sitting on the porch with a shotgun.
Ruby wasn't dumped by Twitter (and a ton of other developers and companies) because 'the UI part of the application essentially gets an insignificant amount of use'. It was dumped because they were using Ruby for a significant amount of BACKEND use. Have you not seen benchmark after benchmark after benchmark of comparison? It actually CAPS OUT!!! It has a plateau! While other spike and go up and down and scale with demand, Ruby plateau's and cannot accomplish more unless (as every Ruby develop explains) you throw more hardware at it. And again, it requires 2-3 times the number of machines (and with that extra sys admins and maintenance) to do in Ruby what you can do in any other language.
And for the record, my brother is a military contractor in Virginia and has offered me many a job with Pentagon contractors; I can build million dollar apps in Perl/Python/PHP too. The dollar amount means nothing. We are talking about the ability to scale with growth and demand and Ruby has never been able to do that.
That is the one thing you have been avoiding this entire time. Sure you can build small apps for the backend that don't get much usage. Small websites for mom-n-pops that don't get much traffic. You can build apps that hardly anyone uses in Ruby. That's neat. It's a fun toy. I build apps that millions of people use. And for that I need a real language that can scale with the business and application demands.
Yes. Exactly. Small mom-n-pop. And thats what Ruby is good at. I on the other hand am a real developer and have to plan for uncontrolled spikes in traffic and growth over time. We can build an app small to begin and add more and more functionality but we have to plan for how that app will scale with the architecture. Otherwise we are just building a throwaway app and the companies investment in that app is money lost since they (like Twitter) will just end up recoding in some other language.
Ruby shows promise and is a good language but by obfuscating so much, it does alot more backend processing that the developer could be deciding how to do. This of course may take SLIGHTLY more development time but you get more speed and scalability. Effectively, for every 1 minute of development time you save, you lose 1 second on every page load which is why you keep having to throw more servers at Ruby (and more sys admins at those servers), etc etc.
It's a scalability nightmare. So yes, Ruby is wonderful for mom-n-pops but I'd never use it for anything that I wanted to grow.
You've never worked in mixed shops before apparently. You've also never worked in shops where people have changed architectures EVER. You also apparentl;y only work for small mom and pops where purchasing is done by the same guy who does administration and nothing ever changes hands. Must be nice to work in such a small shop with a heterogenous environment. The rest of the world envies you.
You seem to be missing what is being said and helping to prove my point at the same time. People who do purchasing are often not the same people doing the maintenance and will often replace Windows installs. And as you pointed out, servers do not always come with OS's. Bu people who report high Windows numbers on servers vs Linux are usually reporting SALES numbers (Windows server sales vs Redhat server sales) which means nothing because when you actually look at the number of server installs of Linux/BSD, they far outnumber Windows.
That was my original point and still is.
I had a lowend shared server running PHPulse, the fastest framework for PHP (whose benchmarks also beat Ruby on Rails by a factor of 5-8). Anyway, I used to get 3 million hits a month on that shared server and it never broke a sweat and the pages loaded instantly. I didn't need extra servers, I didn't need a dedicated server and we didn't need extra memory. The company that maintained the server did bitch that I got alot of traffic and tried to get me to move to another server because of the bandwidth but I was still within my bandwidth limit so I wasn't gonna move.
My point being, PHP, Perl and Python grow with your site and your company. You don't want to have to recode everything because the language cant keep up. While you have worked for alot of mom and pops, I have worked for alot of companies that have grown and need to have their architecture grow with them without hitting a brick wall. Thats the inherent problem with RUBY and the one they HAVE to solve before they achieve mass adoption within mid-to-enterprise. Otherwise it is just for mom-n-pop shops.
Those that do still get reported and confused for installs. So when people quote Windows server numbers, they are usually quoting sales figures and not actual install numbers. That is the point I am making.
You are thinking SERVER SALES... I'm quoting INSTALLS. Alot of servers that are sold with Windows on it get it removed to get BSD or another flavor of Linux installed; BSD/Debian/Slackware are not options from Dell after all and yet they are still within the top ten of server installs.
90% of WHAT market? 80% of server installs are BSD/Linux. 25% of browsers are Firefox. 30% of the databases are MySQL and another 40% are Oracle. 35% of laptop sales go to Apple. They only have %45 of the mobile phone market using their product. So are you talking in generalizations or where you speaking about any specific market that they are supposed to dominate?
:)
Did you also want to point out all those markets that are shrinking. Laptop sales, windows mobile sales (and contracts), government contracts, web browser usage, server usage, corporate sales, office sales, etc etc. Their sales and market share in just about every sector EXCEPT games is shrinking. You can still use your Microsoft computer to play games.
The phrase has meaning that you fail to perceive because you are not taking it in the correct context. But your logic has never been your strong suit or else you might have become a developer instead of a sys admin.
Shouldn't you be setting up a cronjob somewhere?
Yeah and your vehement defense of RUBY in the face of clear denial defines you as a RUBY fanatic. Amazing how your own logic works on you as well. if thats what you call it.
Oh and as a self professed sys admin, you know jack shit about development. Why don't you go write a BASH script or something and leave development to people who know what they are talking about? Sheesh. It's like getting preached to on rocket science by a car mechanic.
And I never said I was a PHP dev. You did. I happen to work in C and Java and PHP. And you fail to see that what you are explaining is only one tiny aspect of the puzzle. Much like your brain. You rant about JRuby (while better because it is based on Java) is still crap because it is an interpretted LAYER. See? You THINK you are explaining things but understand VERY LITTLE. Thats why those benchmarks for JRUBY show it still being worse than PHP, PYTHON and PERL.
I love it when people who have been programming for a year decided to flame on slashdot because it shows them for the tards they are.
You fail to entertain me. Please try again.
Uh huh. Ininformed bullshit. Riiiight. I spout what everyone else 'spouts', what the development community 'spouts', what enterprises 'spout', what benchmarks 'spout' and like all RUBY fanatics, you throw a tantrum?
Did I expect anything less than a tantrum from someone using a toy language?
Yeah. You're not in denial at all. You call me 'rabid'? All I saw in your comments was 'ruby ruby ruby ruby'. Talk about denial.
Thats the funny thing. Whe Twitter was using Ruby, the Ruby community said 'Look at Twitter'. When Twitter dumped Ruby and said it didn't scaled along with everyone else, the Twitter community said 'ignore Twitter, they don't understand anything'.
You can't have you cake and eat it too. Either the company you touted as a prime example of Ruby's capabilities showed that Ruby couldn't scale or you effectively showed that the Ruby community is a bunch of blowhards who cannot accept cold hard facts.
Either way, the honeymoon and hype are over. Ruby's market share will not ebb and wane like all other languages based upon it capabilities rather than insane speculation.
Funny, isn't this what Twitter thought too before dumping RUBY entirely? Wasn't this what Twitter thought as they threw more and more hardware at the problem and still could not solve the problem? Didn't Twitter end up spending more on IT to administer 2-3 times the numbers of servers that it would take to do the same thing in Python, PHP or Java?
Yeah, throw hardware at it. That's a viable solution for a company. As long as you aren't thinking about who has to maintain all those servers and the fact that RUBY STILL DOESN"T SCALE.
EEEH! Try again. Development speed is lost as complexity increases. Development speed is again attained through a framework (as all languages can also attain). Ruby has no inherent speed advantages for development. This is an amazing con by RAILS people and anyone can develop well and fast who understands and knows a framework well. I myself use the PHPulse framework and can crank out new CRUD functionality in about 30 minutes to an hour.
They did. It's called PHP. Notice how much better it scales in that benchmark.
You failed to insult me. Please try again.
You fail to comprehend logic. Please try again.