One more thing which I must add to my last post, something which I cannot let past.
Your quote "Now remember that scientific orthodoxy is a vicious and cruel tyrant" and "Look at the history of science - Pasteur was a victim of it" and finally "yet were drummed out of their professions by the tyranny of the orthodoxy" All true, all totally 100% true, I couldnt agree more with you. But to be fair, to be even handled, to be balanced, perhaps I should mention the tryanny of the christians. Can there be a greater tryanny that the world has seen (short of Hitler)? How many crusades were sent into the Muslim lands? How many innocents where slaughtered, men, woman and children, just for not believing in God? How many people were tortured in confessing they were heretics and then murdered for that confession?
Most of western history is a case of 'believe in God or be slaughtered and go to hell', it is only in recent years (last 200 maybe) that that attitude has been toned down somewhat. And thats only because we have been too busy slaughtering each other for geo-political reasons.
It seems to me that Pasteur got off lightly when we was drummed out of his profession. Leonardo Da Vinci was in fear for his life becuase of his scientific discoverys and inventions, but not from other scientists, from the church.
But, believe it or not, after everthing I have said I am still a christian, I am just not a fanatic believer, I am willing to belive more then one possibilty and consider more then one option.
Oh, and I am not afrid to post this under my own name either.
Hey, I am more then happy to consider the possiblities that life didn't start billions of years ago. Are you?
While I am happy to admit I may be "blindly" following a belief system based around science, are you not just as blindly following a belief system based around a being no one has ever proven exists?
Or can't you admit that since your version on the truth "must" be right?
"I'm glad you love it, but frankly it seems very clear to me that I'm the one fighting the textbooks" maybe this is true, but aren't you following your own textbook, which has been editted, censored and changed to suit popular taste (just like school text books are [see http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible1.html]) called the bible? Your entire belief system is based around one single book (technically one single collection of books I admit), how does that make your beliefs any more valid then my own?
I cannot comprehesibly (sp?) prove that life started billions of years ago, nor can you prove that it did not. To use your own words against you "open your mind - be willing to consider alternatives" The question is, can you take your own advise and consider alternatives also?
Fascinating, truly fascinating reading. Both sides of the argument have faults and seemling solid details, but lets just throw a wobbly into the equation.
If, according to the original equation, it was impossible for life to begin by chance, then how did it start? and more importantly when?
Lets go with the "Christian" theory of God creating man, great theory (no proof though, for proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing).
According to this theory life has not been on this planet long, God created the seas, the fish, the birds etc in 6 days. He must have found time to create fossils also, since that is the only way to explain all these fossilized bones that are being found everywhere. Nor does it explain the fact that life has been PROVEN to have been on earth longer then the Bible would have you believe.
Nor does it say that He created Dinosaurs, which since they have been proven to exist he must have done (lucky Adam wasn't eaten by a Raptor), something as big as Dinosaurs are hardly likely to be left out of the bible if God created them, I mean its not as if you would be able to miss them.
But hey we are getting of the topic somewhat aren't we. Lets just settle for the fact that nothing is impossible. Surely if it is possible for a surpreme being to control/alter/guide life on earth, it is equally possible for life on Earth to start all by itself. Either option is just as impossible and replies on the faith of the believer in a large part.
However science will never be able to prove there is a God, but it is pretty darn good at dating millions upon millions of year old fossils.
Have a look at the Kawa IDE for Java. The orginal versions (up to 4 I think) where great general purpose IDEs for Java, fast, minimalistic, and very non-intrusive. The lastest (maybe version 5, I havent kept upto date with the lastest ones) has moved away from being a general IDE and is specialising in sever side java development.
Kawa is basically a GUI wrapper for the Java SDK and has colour highlighting, workspaces, and a great help feature that lets you hit F1 on any java reserved word you type (ie String) and it brings up the correct Java Doco page. It also has file traversing so you can move between methods and classes of the same project by highlighting the name in a.java you typed.
I love it. The only thing it doesnt have is a GUI builder, which, to me is a plus as I do not like the code GUI builders produce (to large, not OO etc).
The thought of owning a brand new "eHeart" running "Microsoft Windows of the Heart" is scary
I would guess a reboot would be required every 5 to 10 days (including a 6 minute load up cycle)
Bollicks.
Java GUI runs like a 3 legged lame pig in mud, but java sever side code (which obviously does not need GUI in it) runs comparable in speed (if not fast in some cases) to c++ server side code.
Plus it is easier/faster to code and maintain.
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One more thing which I must add to my last post, something which I cannot let past.
Your quote "Now remember that scientific orthodoxy is a vicious and cruel tyrant" and "Look at the history of science - Pasteur was a victim of it" and finally "yet were drummed out of their professions by the tyranny of the orthodoxy" All true, all totally 100% true, I couldnt agree more with you. But to be fair, to be even handled, to be balanced, perhaps I should mention the tryanny of the christians. Can there be a greater tryanny that the world has seen (short of Hitler)? How many crusades were sent into the Muslim lands? How many innocents where slaughtered, men, woman and children, just for not believing in God? How many people were tortured in confessing they were heretics and then murdered for that confession?
Most of western history is a case of 'believe in God or be slaughtered and go to hell', it is only in recent years (last 200 maybe) that that attitude has been toned down somewhat. And thats only because we have been too busy slaughtering each other for geo-political reasons.
It seems to me that Pasteur got off lightly when we was drummed out of his profession. Leonardo Da Vinci was in fear for his life becuase of his scientific discoverys and inventions, but not from other scientists, from the church.
But, believe it or not, after everthing I have said I am still a christian, I am just not a fanatic believer, I am willing to belive more then one possibilty and consider more then one option.
Oh, and I am not afrid to post this under my own name either.
While I am happy to admit I may be "blindly" following a belief system based around science, are you not just as blindly following a belief system based around a being no one has ever proven exists?
Or can't you admit that since your version on the truth "must" be right?
"I'm glad you love it, but frankly it seems very clear to me that I'm the one fighting the textbooks" maybe this is true, but aren't you following your own textbook, which has been editted, censored and changed to suit popular taste (just like school text books are [see http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible1.html]
I cannot comprehesibly (sp?) prove that life started billions of years ago, nor can you prove that it did not. To use your own words against you "open your mind - be willing to consider alternatives" The question is, can you take your own advise and consider alternatives also?
If, according to the original equation, it was impossible for life to begin by chance, then how did it start? and more importantly when?
Lets go with the "Christian" theory of God creating man, great theory (no proof though, for proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing).
According to this theory life has not been on this planet long, God created the seas, the fish, the birds etc in 6 days. He must have found time to create fossils also, since that is the only way to explain all these fossilized bones that are being found everywhere. Nor does it explain the fact that life has been PROVEN to have been on earth longer then the Bible would have you believe.
Nor does it say that He created Dinosaurs, which since they have been proven to exist he must have done (lucky Adam wasn't eaten by a Raptor), something as big as Dinosaurs are hardly likely to be left out of the bible if God created them, I mean its not as if you would be able to miss them.
But hey we are getting of the topic somewhat aren't we. Lets just settle for the fact that nothing is impossible. Surely if it is possible for a surpreme being to control/alter/guide life on earth, it is equally possible for life on Earth to start all by itself. Either option is just as impossible and replies on the faith of the believer in a large part.
However science will never be able to prove there is a God, but it is pretty darn good at dating millions upon millions of year old fossils.
Who do you think has the upper hand there?
Have a look at the Kawa IDE for Java. The orginal versions (up to 4 I think) where great general purpose IDEs for Java, fast, minimalistic, and very non-intrusive. The lastest (maybe version 5, I havent kept upto date with the lastest ones) has moved away from being a general IDE and is specialising in sever side java development.
.java you typed.
Kawa is basically a GUI wrapper for the Java SDK and has colour highlighting, workspaces, and a great help feature that lets you hit F1 on any java reserved word you type (ie String) and it brings up the correct Java Doco page. It also has file traversing so you can move between methods and classes of the same project by highlighting the name in a
I love it. The only thing it doesnt have is a GUI builder, which, to me is a plus as I do not like the code GUI builders produce (to large, not OO etc).
Oh and it has a built in debugger.
The thought of owning a brand new "eHeart" running "Microsoft Windows of the Heart" is scary I would guess a reboot would be required every 5 to 10 days (including a 6 minute load up cycle)
Bollicks. Java GUI runs like a 3 legged lame pig in mud, but java sever side code (which obviously does not need GUI in it) runs comparable in speed (if not fast in some cases) to c++ server side code. Plus it is easier/faster to code and maintain.