Because it all has to do with power flow through the grid and load profile management. Taking a national average load profile is meaningless when it comes to management at the local level. Its not just having 'enough' power, its having enough, where and when you need it. The author misses out on the 'where' part.
So, that is your point? I am a climate change denier? I suppose you can back up, or is that what folks resort to when they don't really have a point.
Its irrelevant. I want an energy future where we have clean air, supply when we want it, while balancing feasibility, reasonable cost and acceptable environmental impact. I actually believe solar can and should be part of that mix, I am just not a solar cultist who ignores the real challenges. Ignorance to the many challenges, and the unwillingness to admit they exist, do nothing for any 'side' of the debate.
Spreading crap from agenda driven organizations that have little credibility is not my idea of how to achieve success. Discussing the real issues, including cost and practicality, and even basic engineering principles, is. Have a pleasant evening.
Your contribution to Slashdot is posting links to crap that fits your agenda, but without making a point yourself. And its becoming clearer as time goes on to most here.
Nobody is proposing we instantaneously divert megawatts halfway across the country on a moment's notice
Actually, from what he presented, that is pretty much what would be required. Also, large power stations are located along strategically designed/placed transmission corridors and still generally only serve a regional load based on years of growth and demand. And don't confuse the marketing of power with the actual transmission. Market is a total sum game and the buyers and sellers don't really control where the power comes from or goes, they just ensure enough is available regionally. The power generated closest to the user is what is used, even if it is credited for sale in a different area.
RE: load averaging: Unless you are ready to cut AC off for hours on a hot day, this will not work, hence the HVAC will have to run during that time and as the author proposed a simple matter of shifting would be enough to handle the situation, because somewhere far away, there would be energy (predictable, in his words) that would be available. But you can't just get that power flow to happen the way he describes, as the grid isn't close to being built in a way to handle power that way. So, once of the costs would be complete rebuilding of the entire power transmission system, not a simple task, and would require significant imminent domain land confiscation in addition to the basic material and construction costs. Just to name a few.
I don't expect you to believe me, and I really don't care if you do. If you trust this guy and believe him without skepticism, then fine as well. If you want to process my points, and his, and decide for yourself, that would be the wise choice. Maybe find a friend or someone that works in the transmission/distribution area, a power engineer, or similar, to help you make a more informed choice.
But, the point is, even if you try to move their starts, they still average out. Not only that, but if you then decide to start a bunch when the peak is gone, you still have to stagger them over a period that could be longer than the valley to avoid being hit by a huge inrush peak. Inrush current is seen at motor start and is 7 times normal operating current.
I would suspect many people don't understand what it takes to get power from the power plant to your house
They don't, and we shouldn't expect them to. That's why these irresponsible articles tick me off, because they play to that ignorance. Even so called knowledgeable people consistently seem to not realize that the distribution part of the grid cannot handle the power transfers that the transmission portion can, and that power flow & management across the grid has a cost.
This guy is clearly no energy expert. He should have consulted an electrical engineer familiar with grid behavior and transmission & distribution engineering before creating this over-simplified explanation. He completely ignores the importance of local load differences, and seems to assume there is a loss-less, instantaneous transfer of energy across the national grid, both transmission and distribution channels, with no limitations.
He also doesn't get that even at a local level things like AC compressors are already averaged out and that delaying the timing of starts really makes almost no difference at the neighborhood level, much less a town level.
Its nice to completely ignore realities like overall cost. Its nice to not realize that industrial areas have a significantly different profile than urban areas, and that rural areas are vastly different. Its nice to call yourself and energy expert and get submitted to slashdot by those that believe you just because they want to, or because you fall in line with their agenda.
Credible experts are people who understand what they know, and what they don't know.
Pushing the limits and crossing the limits are two different things. Again, its situational sensitivity that is considered a positive trait. Those that don't get it, aren't going to display that trait.
Its not about preconceptions based on attire. Its about perceptions based on the wisdom of choosing ones attire that puts the business environment ahead of one's personal need to express himself through dress. That is a statement in itself. Some get it, others don't. The accepted dress in most companies today is much more casual and varied than it was even 10 years ago. It will continue to evolve. Having the capacity to know where the standards of the day are, and what may be pushing the limits, is one that you can demonstrate through your choice of dress. Trying to prove something is fine, just don't blame others for the result it brings. Business leaders don't like complainers.
China sources much of their reactor equipment locally. There is a lot more to the supply chain than just the primary system components, which Westinghouse supplies. The large modular sections for the Chinese reactors are not produced in the US, they are produced in China. The large modular sections for the US plants are produced in the US.
Just to name a few of the blatantly obvious. Those chemicals are ubiquitous. Every flood of a modern habituated area is an 'environmental disaster", you just don't hear about it.
There in Georgia, you have been paying lower than national average electric rates for many years, largely due to the existing nuclear fleet that was also paid for by "the people", as any source is in one way or another.
Part of the problem is that the infrastructure and supply paths for constructing nuclear plants has to be re-constituted as no plants have been built for quite some time. In the case of the Westinghouse plants, their 'modular' assembly facilities had to be built as well and put into production. Nuclear plants require large metal components on a scale that isn't commonly needed. It also requires meticulous tracking of materials and manufacturing activities for quality assurance. Once the supply lines are re-established, it all gets a lot easier and more predictable. Its not a technology issue, its an infrastructure one. We just need to start building more.
Even with higher than predicted costs, its still quite economic. Like any large capital project, getting it going is the hard part.
The tsunami caused all kinds of tank overflows, spilled over storage buildings with chemicals, etc. You just don't hear about that part of the environmental impact, so I'm not surprised you asked.
Slashdot Mirror
Because it all has to do with power flow through the grid and load profile management. Taking a national average load profile is meaningless when it comes to management at the local level. Its not just having 'enough' power, its having enough, where and when you need it. The author misses out on the 'where' part.
^Not surprising. Linkslingers don't bother doing their homework.
So, that is your point? I am a climate change denier? I suppose you can back up, or is that what folks resort to when they don't really have a point.
Its irrelevant. I want an energy future where we have clean air, supply when we want it, while balancing feasibility, reasonable cost and acceptable environmental impact. I actually believe solar can and should be part of that mix, I am just not a solar cultist who ignores the real challenges. Ignorance to the many challenges, and the unwillingness to admit they exist, do nothing for any 'side' of the debate.
Spreading crap from agenda driven organizations that have little credibility is not my idea of how to achieve success. Discussing the real issues, including cost and practicality, and even basic engineering principles, is. Have a pleasant evening.
Your contribution to Slashdot is posting links to crap that fits your agenda, but without making a point yourself. And its becoming clearer as time goes on to most here.
More wisdom from the Rocky Mountain Institute. Call yourself a scientist or an expert, call your tribe an institute, and someone will follow.
Nobody is proposing we instantaneously divert megawatts halfway across the country on a moment's notice
Actually, from what he presented, that is pretty much what would be required. Also, large power stations are located along strategically designed/placed transmission corridors and still generally only serve a regional load based on years of growth and demand. And don't confuse the marketing of power with the actual transmission. Market is a total sum game and the buyers and sellers don't really control where the power comes from or goes, they just ensure enough is available regionally. The power generated closest to the user is what is used, even if it is credited for sale in a different area.
Oooh, nice chart.
RE: load averaging: Unless you are ready to cut AC off for hours on a hot day, this will not work, hence the HVAC will have to run during that time and as the author proposed a simple matter of shifting would be enough to handle the situation, because somewhere far away, there would be energy (predictable, in his words) that would be available. But you can't just get that power flow to happen the way he describes, as the grid isn't close to being built in a way to handle power that way. So, once of the costs would be complete rebuilding of the entire power transmission system, not a simple task, and would require significant imminent domain land confiscation in addition to the basic material and construction costs. Just to name a few.
I don't expect you to believe me, and I really don't care if you do. If you trust this guy and believe him without skepticism, then fine as well. If you want to process my points, and his, and decide for yourself, that would be the wise choice. Maybe find a friend or someone that works in the transmission/distribution area, a power engineer, or similar, to help you make a more informed choice.
But, the point is, even if you try to move their starts, they still average out. Not only that, but if you then decide to start a bunch when the peak is gone, you still have to stagger them over a period that could be longer than the valley to avoid being hit by a huge inrush peak. Inrush current is seen at motor start and is 7 times normal operating current.
True. Good Point. Still, at least some of those articles give decent hints at the level of speculation uncertainty they involve.
Those are all quite different from the submission, and their titles are full of "maybe's and coulds".
I would suspect many people don't understand what it takes to get power from the power plant to your house
They don't, and we shouldn't expect them to. That's why these irresponsible articles tick me off, because they play to that ignorance. Even so called knowledgeable people consistently seem to not realize that the distribution part of the grid cannot handle the power transfers that the transmission portion can, and that power flow & management across the grid has a cost.
Re-posting the same item in a seperate blog post is not a "different source". Its a copy of the same damn thing.
^LOL. That qualifies him for authoring mdsolar submissions, but not much else.
^and your forgot to mention that the wealthy will continue to use energy however they want and let the poor do the adjusting.
This guy is clearly no energy expert. He should have consulted an electrical engineer familiar with grid behavior and transmission & distribution engineering before creating this over-simplified explanation. He completely ignores the importance of local load differences, and seems to assume there is a loss-less, instantaneous transfer of energy across the national grid, both transmission and distribution channels, with no limitations.
He also doesn't get that even at a local level things like AC compressors are already averaged out and that delaying the timing of starts really makes almost no difference at the neighborhood level, much less a town level.
Its nice to completely ignore realities like overall cost. Its nice to not realize that industrial areas have a significantly different profile than urban areas, and that rural areas are vastly different. Its nice to call yourself and energy expert and get submitted to slashdot by those that believe you just because they want to, or because you fall in line with their agenda.
Credible experts are people who understand what they know, and what they don't know.
Pushing the limits and crossing the limits are two different things. Again, its situational sensitivity that is considered a positive trait. Those that don't get it, aren't going to display that trait.
Its not about preconceptions based on attire. Its about perceptions based on the wisdom of choosing ones attire that puts the business environment ahead of one's personal need to express himself through dress. That is a statement in itself. Some get it, others don't. The accepted dress in most companies today is much more casual and varied than it was even 10 years ago. It will continue to evolve. Having the capacity to know where the standards of the day are, and what may be pushing the limits, is one that you can demonstrate through your choice of dress. Trying to prove something is fine, just don't blame others for the result it brings. Business leaders don't like complainers.
Real engineers don't size databases.
China sources much of their reactor equipment locally. There is a lot more to the supply chain than just the primary system components, which Westinghouse supplies. The large modular sections for the Chinese reactors are not produced in the US, they are produced in China. The large modular sections for the US plants are produced in the US.
Gas tanks. Oil Tanks. Diesel tanks. Cleaning supplies. Light industrial supplies.
Just to name a few of the blatantly obvious. Those chemicals are ubiquitous. Every flood of a modern habituated area is an 'environmental disaster", you just don't hear about it.
The infrastructure in China is actually further ahead than that in the US. You can 'assume' it is something else if you want.
There in Georgia, you have been paying lower than national average electric rates for many years, largely due to the existing nuclear fleet that was also paid for by "the people", as any source is in one way or another.
Part of the problem is that the infrastructure and supply paths for constructing nuclear plants has to be re-constituted as no plants have been built for quite some time. In the case of the Westinghouse plants, their 'modular' assembly facilities had to be built as well and put into production. Nuclear plants require large metal components on a scale that isn't commonly needed. It also requires meticulous tracking of materials and manufacturing activities for quality assurance. Once the supply lines are re-established, it all gets a lot easier and more predictable. Its not a technology issue, its an infrastructure one. We just need to start building more.
Even with higher than predicted costs, its still quite economic. Like any large capital project, getting it going is the hard part.
The tsunami caused all kinds of tank overflows, spilled over storage buildings with chemicals, etc. You just don't hear about that part of the environmental impact, so I'm not surprised you asked.