Who said it was a technological issue? This technology has been around forever, there is nothing new. Charging cars is easy. That is irrelevant. Maybe you did not realize that this conversation is about charging time and wait time, not technology, and in that sense you were clueless.
Let me spell it out, again, as clear as I can..... The number of charging spaces at any given spot is limited by the amount of area you have available. The number of charging stations chosen for a given facility will be a factor of space available and expected number of customers (per hour/day, etc).... It takes 5 to 20 times longer to charge a car than to refuel with gas, so for the same amount of customers to be able to charge with no wait, you will need many times more charging spaces as compared to pumping spaces. There are many places where the need for these huge lots will be a problem, and therefore the number of charging station will not be enough to prevent anybody for waiting.
It has nothing to do with cost, technology, or difficulty of installation. It has to do with time to charge, number of customers, and available space. Presently at gas stations it is somewhat acceptable for customers to wait a turn for pumping, it will not be for charging as the duration is way too long.
As for the best 'setup' for charging cars. You can dream up all the cool stuff, in the end the market will figure out the most optimum that meets industrial and safety standards and is customer friendly, so it really doesn't matter which one we think could be employed.
No problem, my numbers are off here and there. Don't forget, those PV output numbers don't include losses for the charger circuit, which can be significant but I don't know exactly what they are.
I enjoyed the back and forth. I learned a bit from you. Thanks.
Thanks for the response. I live in the southeast, 30 miles each way combined freeway and secondary roads, but I also need to drive to other offices quite often, 200 mile round trip. I might sit in stop and go traffic some days for up to 45 minutes, some of those days are 95 degrees and so I need AC! I have 2 kids we run all over the place, adding to my round trip and need for reliability and availability. I drive a used Camry. I have a truck for various needs.My wife drives a mid sized SUV, which we utilize heavily as my Camry can't carry the family, the dog, or friends etc. My decision to drive an EV would be financial and functional, not looking for green points or feel goodness. I don't want tax credits taking other peoples hard earned money to pay for my car. No way would an EV compete with my Camry on either front, your description confirms that for me. I am quite tall and subcompacts are usually uncomfortable, or have zero rear leg room if I am driving. The Camry is small for me but I manage even though my head hits the ceiling if I don't lean back.
I will be the part of the market that waits until the product is proven before I move. That is the smartest approach for me and my family.
They teach us that good science involves both trying to prove theories as well as trying to disprove them. Both are equally important. Both should be applied to climate change theories. Unfortunately, one of those approaches is not politically acceptable, and that is bad no matter what you believe.
You said you use 10 Kwh for a commute. 10,000 wh / 100 w/m2 = 100 m2. Even if you use the exotic highest end PV cells @150w/m2, it would still be a lot more than 4 m2.
BostonPilot... thanks for that great summary. I never meant to imply there is NO market for EV's today. There certainly is. I am saying is that the product is clearly not ready for mass adoption. If your driving situation fits, and you have a gas vehicle to drive when needed, and you can afford it, then its a neat way to go. I still am curious how the air conditioning affects range and performance. Can you give us some real world experience on that?
Total cost of ownership, including fuel cost, still looks high. You did a lease which makes it harder to see the total ownership cycle cost (purchase, use, fuel, maintain, sell) to compare. It also likely includes some federal tax offsets or similar (either for you and/or the dealer), which hides the true cost unless you specifically account for them. In general, total cost still appears to be much higher that a comparable gas vehicle. I know that cost keeps some people away that might otherwise try the EVs.
The charging time of 90 minutes is interesting. There is a discussion elsewhere that was claiming 20 minute charging time
Batteries will improve. Hopefully in the next 5 to 10 years we can get them lighter, faster charging, and higher energy density. Among all the other stuff, that is the real key to mass market appeal.
Thanks again for that summary. It paints a good picture of a real use scenario.
I used the averages in three different charts for what appeared to be mid sized passenger vehicles under average driving conditions. I'll take your number for a subcompact car. I assume that is your optimal mileage, no passengers, no air conditioning or cargo, no traffic jams, etc. Take a realistic PV rating and you may get more like 10-15 miles on a good full sun-day of charging. My point is still valid.
That's good, but say if we were switching from electrical cars to gasoline powered ones. Would you be equally "realistic"
Absolutely. If we had an embedded electrical infrastructure and electric cars were serving the needs of the market, and we tried to move to gas cars that weren't yet ready for that market and without the infrastructure, I'd be saying the exact same thing.
I see you like the words "simple" and "trivial". Unfortunately, changing over isn't either one of those. You think it is about resistance to the concept when folks talk about the challenges. You are 100% wrong. It is the people that recognize the challenges before they present themselves that are key to success. And folks that trivialize those problems and ignore those that do, are simply clueless cheerleaders.
Bottom line is, if the product is ready, the market will make it happen. If it is artificially forced ahead of its time, those that are forcing it better be ready to deal with the realities.
The solar challenge did not have passenger vehicles, they had glorified go-karts. I don't think anybody is gonna drive to work lying down in a fiberglass foam death trap with no safety features traveling at 25 mph max, even if they have the luxury of a flat road with no potholes the whole way. There are real numbers out there for what practical electric passenger vehicles require, we don't need to use some overpriced, impractical research vehicles as the comparative case, that would be plain stupid. And I didn't even get to the cost of those solar challenge carts.
Don't be afraid to acknowledge the challenges. I never said they could not be overcome. But they exist. It amazes me how hard some folks work to ignore them.
Your misconceptions are showing themselves. First of all, the cost of gas pumps is irrelevant, the number of pumps at a given station is usually driven by expected traffic and available space. I am sure you knew this, right?
You don't just simply have a power outlet. That is the simplistic view many have. You have a charging station which included control electronics, breakers, transformers, and payment electronics. For a large station with many outlets, you will need some pretty hefty electrical switchgear with arc-fault protection. All of this stuff, when built to safety and reliability standards for commercial rather than home use, gets pricey. But here again, the amount of stations will be limited by space more than anything.. For electric cars, which take 5 times as long to charge, you will need 5 times as many "refueling stations" to get an equal amount of service. To ensure there is never a wait, you probably need 15 or more times the number of stations and in many places that space does not exist, even when you take in to account that charging stations probably don't require as much area. Save room for that electrical switchgear too, it needs to be safely separated from the rest of the service area. Underground distribution will likely make the most sense, so adding new stations means digging up the pavement, etc.
I am all for electric cars, and hope they become practical. I won't let that stop be from being realistic about the challenges.
I have this radical idea. Add more charging stations. I figure if we have a really big reseqarch program, just like Fusion power, in twenty years or so, we'll come up with a way to wire in more charging stations.
Just like they do now, by always adding enough pumps so there is never a wait.....brilliant thinking.
Electric cars still look quite unattractive to me. The primary problem is the weight, cost, and limited life of the batteries. But long charging times are also still a problem, and even 20 minutes is rather long.
Actually, they LOOK attractive to me at first glance, but get up close and get to know them better and they get uglier. Weight and cost of keeping them happy, I mean running, is too much, plus you just can't depend on them to be there for you when you need them. Then you are always waiting on them to get ready.
at some locations a 20 minute gas stop is normal even for gasoline cars. Last time I took I-80 westbound we had to wait for 15 minutes to get to a pump, then 5 minutes to pump with another 10 minutes to wait for traffic to get out of my way so we can get back on the highway. Instead, if there was a charging station at the oasis I would plug in, go inside to use the bathroom, get a coffee, and walk back out in those 20 minutes
So, we should set our standards and expectations based on the existing worst case scenarios? Not me. I typically gas up and am out of there in 5 minutes. The credit card reader at the pump is a truly great thing.
And that efficiency also applies to electrical usage in the production of.... batteries and electric cars and windmills, and mining the raw materials, etc. In fact, I think refineries use more natural gas, oil, or other direct heat rather than electrical heat. Of course, electrical usage is still required.
But your point is good. You have to look at the whole system. You get it, many don't seem to.
I was just pointing out the losses that many people overlook. That total efficiency is less than that of a gasoline engine. As for electric cars, I am all for them. I hope they evolve to become practical for the mass market. A lot of progress has been made, still a long way to go. But it would be beautiful to drive a quiet car with electrical motor performance. Electrical cars and hybrids can take advantage of regenerative breaking, something gassers can't do.
With that said, they are not the clean air, environmental beauties many make them out to be. Based on technologies available, or expected to be available in the foreseeable future, the best clean air scenario is increased nuclear generation coupled with the appropriate amount of wind power, and with natural gas for load balancing. It will be very expensive due to the cost of the cars and the wind power, but I would be willing to go that route. Unfortunately, we'll see coal and natural gas as the bigger players if we say on the path we are on.
Thanks for our smart ass response, although I am struggling to determine what it added to the conversation.
A quick check shows common electric vehicles today are actually using about 400 Wh/km. That can be improved under optimal condition (perfect temperature, no stopping/starting, no air conditioning, everything maintained perfectly, flat terrain)
What reference car are you using?.
You know you are quoting power output in optimal test conditions of the most expensive and exotic type of PV panels, right?
Oh, and on hot days, you might need to choose between Air Conditioning and getting home.
Efficiency losses in the electric car chain, from fuel source to motor, include -
1) Heat transfer losses at the boiler or gas turbine
2) Power heat cycle system losses
3) Generator losses (Gen efficiency)
4) Step up transformer losses
5) transmission line losses
6) Step down transformer losses
7) Charger losses
8) Battery storage/efficiency losses
Charge all day long from a photovoltaic panel the size of a parking space. On a sunny day, that energy might get you a few miles, on a cloudy day, it might not get you out of a big parking lot. And that is being generous.
I'm thinking more along the lines of entire buildings' rooves decked with PV cells; so the building is mostly powered using solar, and the reduced building power consumption serves to offset additional capacity demand being pulled by the charger during the day.
Huh? The solar panels won't even offset the power demands of the building. So what you are saying is solar PV has not use for car charging......that was my point. Thanks for validating it.
Charge all day long from a photovoltaic panel the size of a parking space. On a sunny day, that energy might get you a few miles, on a cloudy day, it might not get you out of a big parking lot. And that is being generous.
Very few people, even those who enjoy driving, enjoy more than a tiny fraction of the driving they do. In these situations, I find that the best touchstone is asking what very, very wealthy people do. They have essentially unlimited options, and what they do is reflective of human desire not limited by constraints.
Overwhelmingly, they choose to be driven..
Your image of the very rich must have been painted for you. Reality is that you drive by a lot of very rich folks every day and just don't know it because they drive regular cars and look a lot like regular people. Just because a small fraction of the extremely wealthy prefer arranged transportation and decide to use their time for other means doesn't translate to anyone else at all. And even those folks that do use chauffeurs don't use them all the time, its often more when working. There are a lot of people that could afford chauffeurs that choose to drive on a regular basis. My guess is that is a very large majority.
I love driving. Not every minute of it, but most of it. I take pride in my driving skills. I hate being driven by someone else. I'm not rich by US standards.
Great, now I'll be stuck behind some cyclist for 20 minutes since the auto-car is too much of a wuss to pass, and won't do it until I get to a passing lane which might not even exist on some roads.
You could burn the boxes they are shipped in for heat. You could rip out the wiring and use it for tourniquets. You could pile them up to make shelter walls.
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Who said it was a technological issue? This technology has been around forever, there is nothing new. Charging cars is easy. That is irrelevant. Maybe you did not realize that this conversation is about charging time and wait time, not technology, and in that sense you were clueless.
Let me spell it out, again, as clear as I can..... The number of charging spaces at any given spot is limited by the amount of area you have available. The number of charging stations chosen for a given facility will be a factor of space available and expected number of customers (per hour/day, etc).... It takes 5 to 20 times longer to charge a car than to refuel with gas, so for the same amount of customers to be able to charge with no wait, you will need many times more charging spaces as compared to pumping spaces. There are many places where the need for these huge lots will be a problem, and therefore the number of charging station will not be enough to prevent anybody for waiting.
It has nothing to do with cost, technology, or difficulty of installation. It has to do with time to charge, number of customers, and available space. Presently at gas stations it is somewhat acceptable for customers to wait a turn for pumping, it will not be for charging as the duration is way too long.
As for the best 'setup' for charging cars. You can dream up all the cool stuff, in the end the market will figure out the most optimum that meets industrial and safety standards and is customer friendly, so it really doesn't matter which one we think could be employed.
No problem, my numbers are off here and there. Don't forget, those PV output numbers don't include losses for the charger circuit, which can be significant but I don't know exactly what they are.
I enjoyed the back and forth. I learned a bit from you. Thanks.
Thanks for the response. I live in the southeast, 30 miles each way combined freeway and secondary roads, but I also need to drive to other offices quite often, 200 mile round trip. I might sit in stop and go traffic some days for up to 45 minutes, some of those days are 95 degrees and so I need AC! I have 2 kids we run all over the place, adding to my round trip and need for reliability and availability. I drive a used Camry. I have a truck for various needs.My wife drives a mid sized SUV, which we utilize heavily as my Camry can't carry the family, the dog, or friends etc. My decision to drive an EV would be financial and functional, not looking for green points or feel goodness. I don't want tax credits taking other peoples hard earned money to pay for my car. No way would an EV compete with my Camry on either front, your description confirms that for me. I am quite tall and subcompacts are usually uncomfortable, or have zero rear leg room if I am driving. The Camry is small for me but I manage even though my head hits the ceiling if I don't lean back.
I will be the part of the market that waits until the product is proven before I move. That is the smartest approach for me and my family.
They teach us that good science involves both trying to prove theories as well as trying to disprove them. Both are equally important. Both should be applied to climate change theories. Unfortunately, one of those approaches is not politically acceptable, and that is bad no matter what you believe.
You said you use 10 Kwh for a commute. 10,000 wh / 100 w/m2 = 100 m2. Even if you use the exotic highest end PV cells @150w/m2, it would still be a lot more than 4 m2.
BostonPilot... thanks for that great summary. I never meant to imply there is NO market for EV's today. There certainly is. I am saying is that the product is clearly not ready for mass adoption. If your driving situation fits, and you have a gas vehicle to drive when needed, and you can afford it, then its a neat way to go. I still am curious how the air conditioning affects range and performance. Can you give us some real world experience on that?
Total cost of ownership, including fuel cost, still looks high. You did a lease which makes it harder to see the total ownership cycle cost (purchase, use, fuel, maintain, sell) to compare. It also likely includes some federal tax offsets or similar (either for you and/or the dealer), which hides the true cost unless you specifically account for them. In general, total cost still appears to be much higher that a comparable gas vehicle. I know that cost keeps some people away that might otherwise try the EVs.
The charging time of 90 minutes is interesting. There is a discussion elsewhere that was claiming 20 minute charging time
Batteries will improve. Hopefully in the next 5 to 10 years we can get them lighter, faster charging, and higher energy density. Among all the other stuff, that is the real key to mass market appeal.
Thanks again for that summary. It paints a good picture of a real use scenario.
I used the averages in three different charts for what appeared to be mid sized passenger vehicles under average driving conditions. I'll take your number for a subcompact car. I assume that is your optimal mileage, no passengers, no air conditioning or cargo, no traffic jams, etc. Take a realistic PV rating and you may get more like 10-15 miles on a good full sun-day of charging. My point is still valid.
That's good, but say if we were switching from electrical cars to gasoline powered ones. Would you be equally "realistic"
Absolutely. If we had an embedded electrical infrastructure and electric cars were serving the needs of the market, and we tried to move to gas cars that weren't yet ready for that market and without the infrastructure, I'd be saying the exact same thing.
I see you like the words "simple" and "trivial". Unfortunately, changing over isn't either one of those. You think it is about resistance to the concept when folks talk about the challenges. You are 100% wrong. It is the people that recognize the challenges before they present themselves that are key to success. And folks that trivialize those problems and ignore those that do, are simply clueless cheerleaders.
Bottom line is, if the product is ready, the market will make it happen. If it is artificially forced ahead of its time, those that are forcing it better be ready to deal with the realities.
The solar challenge did not have passenger vehicles, they had glorified go-karts. I don't think anybody is gonna drive to work lying down in a fiberglass foam death trap with no safety features traveling at 25 mph max, even if they have the luxury of a flat road with no potholes the whole way. There are real numbers out there for what practical electric passenger vehicles require, we don't need to use some overpriced, impractical research vehicles as the comparative case, that would be plain stupid. And I didn't even get to the cost of those solar challenge carts.
Don't be afraid to acknowledge the challenges. I never said they could not be overcome. But they exist. It amazes me how hard some folks work to ignore them.
Your misconceptions are showing themselves. First of all, the cost of gas pumps is irrelevant, the number of pumps at a given station is usually driven by expected traffic and available space. I am sure you knew this, right?
You don't just simply have a power outlet. That is the simplistic view many have. You have a charging station which included control electronics, breakers, transformers, and payment electronics. For a large station with many outlets, you will need some pretty hefty electrical switchgear with arc-fault protection. All of this stuff, when built to safety and reliability standards for commercial rather than home use, gets pricey. But here again, the amount of stations will be limited by space more than anything.. For electric cars, which take 5 times as long to charge, you will need 5 times as many "refueling stations" to get an equal amount of service. To ensure there is never a wait, you probably need 15 or more times the number of stations and in many places that space does not exist, even when you take in to account that charging stations probably don't require as much area. Save room for that electrical switchgear too, it needs to be safely separated from the rest of the service area. Underground distribution will likely make the most sense, so adding new stations means digging up the pavement, etc.
I am all for electric cars, and hope they become practical. I won't let that stop be from being realistic about the challenges.
I have this radical idea. Add more charging stations. I figure if we have a really big reseqarch program, just like Fusion power, in twenty years or so, we'll come up with a way to wire in more charging stations.
Just like they do now, by always adding enough pumps so there is never a wait.....brilliant thinking.
Electric cars still look quite unattractive to me. The primary problem is the weight, cost, and limited life of the batteries. But long charging times are also still a problem, and even 20 minutes is rather long.
Actually, they LOOK attractive to me at first glance, but get up close and get to know them better and they get uglier. Weight and cost of keeping them happy, I mean running, is too much, plus you just can't depend on them to be there for you when you need them. Then you are always waiting on them to get ready.
How long is the wait if all the chargers are being used?
at some locations a 20 minute gas stop is normal even for gasoline cars. Last time I took I-80 westbound we had to wait for 15 minutes to get to a pump, then 5 minutes to pump with another 10 minutes to wait for traffic to get out of my way so we can get back on the highway. Instead, if there was a charging station at the oasis I would plug in, go inside to use the bathroom, get a coffee, and walk back out in those 20 minutes
So, we should set our standards and expectations based on the existing worst case scenarios? Not me. I typically gas up and am out of there in 5 minutes. The credit card reader at the pump is a truly great thing.
And that efficiency also applies to electrical usage in the production of.... batteries and electric cars and windmills, and mining the raw materials, etc. In fact, I think refineries use more natural gas, oil, or other direct heat rather than electrical heat. Of course, electrical usage is still required.
But your point is good. You have to look at the whole system. You get it, many don't seem to.
I was just pointing out the losses that many people overlook. That total efficiency is less than that of a gasoline engine. As for electric cars, I am all for them. I hope they evolve to become practical for the mass market. A lot of progress has been made, still a long way to go. But it would be beautiful to drive a quiet car with electrical motor performance. Electrical cars and hybrids can take advantage of regenerative breaking, something gassers can't do.
With that said, they are not the clean air, environmental beauties many make them out to be. Based on technologies available, or expected to be available in the foreseeable future, the best clean air scenario is increased nuclear generation coupled with the appropriate amount of wind power, and with natural gas for load balancing. It will be very expensive due to the cost of the cars and the wind power, but I would be willing to go that route. Unfortunately, we'll see coal and natural gas as the bigger players if we say on the path we are on.
Thanks for our smart ass response, although I am struggling to determine what it added to the conversation.
A quick check shows common electric vehicles today are actually using about 400 Wh/km. That can be improved under optimal condition (perfect temperature, no stopping/starting, no air conditioning, everything maintained perfectly, flat terrain)
What reference car are you using?.
You know you are quoting power output in optimal test conditions of the most expensive and exotic type of PV panels, right?
Oh, and on hot days, you might need to choose between Air Conditioning and getting home.
There is already a vast and lucrative market for safer, better, cheaper, environmentally friendly batteries. There has been for quite some time.
Efficiency losses in the electric car chain, from fuel source to motor, include -
1) Heat transfer losses at the boiler or gas turbine
2) Power heat cycle system losses
3) Generator losses (Gen efficiency)
4) Step up transformer losses
5) transmission line losses
6) Step down transformer losses
7) Charger losses
8) Battery storage/efficiency losses
Charge all day long from a photovoltaic panel the size of a parking space. On a sunny day, that energy might get you a few miles, on a cloudy day, it might not get you out of a big parking lot. And that is being generous.
I'm thinking more along the lines of entire buildings' rooves decked with PV cells; so the building is mostly powered using solar, and the reduced building power consumption serves to offset additional capacity demand being pulled by the charger during the day.
Huh? The solar panels won't even offset the power demands of the building. So what you are saying is solar PV has not use for car charging......that was my point. Thanks for validating it.
Charge all day long from a photovoltaic panel the size of a parking space. On a sunny day, that energy might get you a few miles, on a cloudy day, it might not get you out of a big parking lot. And that is being generous.
Very few people, even those who enjoy driving, enjoy more than a tiny fraction of the driving they do. In these situations, I find that the best touchstone is asking what very, very wealthy people do. They have essentially unlimited options, and what they do is reflective of human desire not limited by constraints. Overwhelmingly, they choose to be driven. .
Your image of the very rich must have been painted for you. Reality is that you drive by a lot of very rich folks every day and just don't know it because they drive regular cars and look a lot like regular people. Just because a small fraction of the extremely wealthy prefer arranged transportation and decide to use their time for other means doesn't translate to anyone else at all. And even those folks that do use chauffeurs don't use them all the time, its often more when working. There are a lot of people that could afford chauffeurs that choose to drive on a regular basis. My guess is that is a very large majority.
I love driving. Not every minute of it, but most of it. I take pride in my driving skills. I hate being driven by someone else. I'm not rich by US standards.
Great, now I'll be stuck behind some cyclist for 20 minutes since the auto-car is too much of a wuss to pass, and won't do it until I get to a passing lane which might not even exist on some roads.
You could burn the boxes they are shipped in for heat. You could rip out the wiring and use it for tourniquets. You could pile them up to make shelter walls.
Lots of uses.