With a few obvious exceptions, these policies are no different than the policies of many Fortune 500 companies. Breaking these policies is where people get into trouble.
I've had some experience in Government too (both state and federal) and it is not the same. A lot of government policy is enforceable by law because there is public money and reputation at stake. Private companies make policy only to protect their personal revenue (unless they are supplying to Govt and are then bound by their policies too). The Law still takes precedence over anything a private organisation tries to claim.
You've restored my faith in humanity:)
I don't want to argue each individual case, I simply don't have the time for it. And if I did I'd want to see court transcripts rather than sensationalist media reports.
I've heard of a couple of cases that I thought sounded terrible (ie teenage couple sharing pics among themselves and being charged), and when I dug deeper (ie outside the media version of events) the court result actually made sense. So this may or may not be the case here (can't say without lengthy research hours)
And I was lucky enough to catch an interview with a Federal Minister on the subject where he made complete sense. So I trust the system.
Maybe things are little more whacko where you live, but even then I will opt for reporting suspect crime than not. I can't see how not reporting can ever produce a net gain for society as a whole.
Just out of interest, what is an example of a photo where you think this could possibly happen?
Baby pictures, especially involving a bathtub. Or, for people from other cultures where it is usual for women to go topless and pre-pubescent to go naked, especially if there's water involved. Or nudists.
Wait, we already have these things and the sky hasn't fallen on anyone's head. In fact if you go to most school shows, gyms, parks, swimming pools they already have a no photography policy specifically for child protection. I've never heard of any of these people being fired for enforcing them.
How the fuck is a teenager taking naked selfies causing harm to others?
In some cases, the photos meant for one person have been passed on to others without permission. This is why we have courts and judges, because your one off examples are vastly oversimplified for the real world.
If *you* report a minor like that and thy wind up in prison because a judge does not use discretion, you are just as culpable as the judge.
We're all in this together buddy. One solution is a legal system that we try to make work, the other is you make it up as you go because you think you know everything. I know which one I support.
In which jurisdiction exactly is malpractice leading to death considered the same as deliberate murder?
What are you talking about?
Doctors have mandatory reporting requirements on suspected drug and domestic violence cases. Having a "PC Doctor" report on suspected kiddy sex cases would be the same principle.
Yeah, thought so...
You know, when you ask a question you should at least wait for an answer before making yourself look foolish...
By which time the defendant has likely used up all resources and funds;
Have they? So who are those people in the Appeals Court then?
we've reached the point where the process is the punishment
I've been to court, and spent a day in the cells because of it. Even then it wasn't as bad as you make it sound.
I still prefer this system to the one you have failed to offer as an alternative.
You know that kids have been prosecuted for producing child porn after taking naked selfies, right?
Yes, and I know of some cases where the punishment was a warning and a note on file. No prison term or burning at the stake...
"child porn" is a legal definition and casts a wide net.
And judges have this thing called discretion. Look it up.
Sure it encompasses the scum who should be jailed for life but it is wide enough to capture teenagers who have done no harm to anyone.
Sometimes yes sometimes no. That's why we have people called "Judges" who get to apply their brain to the problem (known as "Judgement")
Thousands of kids do this everyday, and I know of none in prison for it. Maybe the system is as bad as you think?
Yes, it looks like it just replaces the WPS button.
Also, I don't see how they can't use the wifi from outside the building once they have the password. Unless they expire, which you can do without any fruit at all.
I'm assuming the controller is on a timer, which is fairly standard these days. The banana is merely a supposedly more fun way of pressing a button (yes lame in my opinion, but that's all you need to make the front page these days - and because Raspberry Pi!)
What happens in a courtroom and what gets reported are usually two vastly different things.
And sometimes, you get the occasion to go and watch such a trial first hand, and you see that the reality is actually much worse.
... and even if the law is written with a modicum of balance, a judge may still ignore/disregard those parts of it that she doesn't like.
Which is why the appeals court exists.
We all know the system isn't perfect, and it's easy to knock the odd case that misses, but I can't see how not reporting crime improves this system?
and when she's a month from her 18th birthday she sends you a naughty picture and someone finds out and now you're in jail and a sexual offender.
Is this very logical?
No, which is why it doesn't happen outside your imagination..
The real point of the law is to strengthen the idea that people in non-law enforcement professions can be forced into acting as police.
Um, "Police" comes from the word policy, ie In the civil and criminal security model, the politicians, create policy, the police enforce it, and the courts are used to decide if policy has been broken or not. In this system, most crime is "reported" by civilians, nothing changes here. This is exactly what already happens with doctors and domestic violence and drug cases.
Next, teachers who hear students talk about violence are forced to report the student to the authorities. Librarians who lend out books about Islamic extremism must notify DHS.
That already happens, because if regular people don't get involved, the system breaks.
It's a path to curtail civil liberties, and of course it starts with child pornography.
Take off the tinfoil hat dude, you're going full retard...
I once had a job that involved me working in people's homes and my general rule was mind my own business and get the job done. I think most workers feel the same way.
Speak for yourself. Everyone I know who worked as Sysadmin used to sniff through other people's stuff just for kicks. We've also had a few cases of baggage handlers (freight monkeys, not security) at the airports rummaging through people's bags. So I disagree. You're less likely to sniff through someone's stuff in *their* house, but when their property is at your place, and you're bored, a different set of rules apply.
Where's the training course where we're taught to identify people 15 years old compared to 16 years old?
Just like when you see a dude running into a bank with a gun, how do you know if he's a crook or a cop?
What about a suitcase left at an airport?
You don't have to know, make a phone call and let the people who can find out, do their job.
Imagine you're an IT professional, and you report your client for having what turns out to be (after the court case) harmless pictures of his children,
Just out of interest, what is an example of a photo where you think this could possibly happen?
I don't know too many parents that put their dick in their children's mouths...
I would think about the guy who spent a couple of months in jail amd nearly spent years in prison over a DVD with 19-year old Lupe Fuentes.
This has been mentioned a few times in this thread so I did a quick Google (the very thing everyone is accusing the prosecutors of this case of not doing). A few things to note:
Nowhere reputable says this guy spent time in jail (Never trust newspapers with court stories). The court docs say he was given bail, which means he's not in jail while the trail is being prepared. There's even a mention that he breached bail and the court let him off with a warning. And the case got dismissed, so there's no official record of jail time.
He was arrested for possessing what looks like kiddy porn. Google Little Lupe Fuentes, she looked like a kid in this video even if she wasn't. What should an LEO do in this case, just ignore a possible CP case based on...??? Arrest is the reasonable course of action and let the court decide. That's how the legal system works.
Even if Lupe wasn't under age, what is this guy doing with material that *looks* like kiddy porn? Did he actually know himself, or did he buy it thinking she was a kid? We can't know, but as a common porn user, I won't go anywhere near anything that looks illegal, so makes me suspect when others do.
The summary of the event is a guy with porn that looked like kiddy porn got arrested. The court found out through due process that she wasn't a kid and he got off. Ignoring all kiddy porn because of this one example seems to be a strange course of action IMO. It seems reasonable to me that any suspect cases should be reported, and let the people who decide, do their job.
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With a few obvious exceptions, these policies are no different than the policies of many Fortune 500 companies. Breaking these policies is where people get into trouble.
I've had some experience in Government too (both state and federal) and it is not the same. A lot of government policy is enforceable by law because there is public money and reputation at stake. Private companies make policy only to protect their personal revenue (unless they are supplying to Govt and are then bound by their policies too). The Law still takes precedence over anything a private organisation tries to claim.
Sorry for doing the research...
You've restored my faith in humanity :)
I don't want to argue each individual case, I simply don't have the time for it. And if I did I'd want to see court transcripts rather than sensationalist media reports.
I've heard of a couple of cases that I thought sounded terrible (ie teenage couple sharing pics among themselves and being charged), and when I dug deeper (ie outside the media version of events) the court result actually made sense. So this may or may not be the case here (can't say without lengthy research hours)
And I was lucky enough to catch an interview with a Federal Minister on the subject where he made complete sense. So I trust the system.
Maybe things are little more whacko where you live, but even then I will opt for reporting suspect crime than not. I can't see how not reporting can ever produce a net gain for society as a whole.
Just out of interest, what is an example of a photo where you think this could possibly happen?
Baby pictures, especially involving a bathtub. Or, for people from other cultures where it is usual for women to go topless and pre-pubescent to go naked, especially if there's water involved. Or nudists.
Wait, we already have these things and the sky hasn't fallen on anyone's head. In fact if you go to most school shows, gyms, parks, swimming pools they already have a no photography policy specifically for child protection. I've never heard of any of these people being fired for enforcing them.
Yeah, but I don't make nearly enough money to afford the liability insurance that's pretty much mandatory for doctors today.
If it's mandatory, the costs get passed onto your customers. Just like your doctor/lawyer/pilot/bus driver does.
YOU have to prove that the verdict is faulty.
Good luck there.
Some people win appeals, so the system seems to be working. You're alternative is to not report suspected crime? Good luck with that strategy...
How the fuck is a teenager taking naked selfies causing harm to others?
In some cases, the photos meant for one person have been passed on to others without permission. This is why we have courts and judges, because your one off examples are vastly oversimplified for the real world.
If *you* report a minor like that and thy wind up in prison because a judge does not use discretion, you are just as culpable as the judge.
We're all in this together buddy. One solution is a legal system that we try to make work, the other is you make it up as you go because you think you know everything. I know which one I support.
In which jurisdiction exactly is malpractice leading to death considered the same as deliberate murder?
What are you talking about?
Doctors have mandatory reporting requirements on suspected drug and domestic violence cases. Having a "PC Doctor" report on suspected kiddy sex cases would be the same principle.
Yeah, thought so...
You know, when you ask a question you should at least wait for an answer before making yourself look foolish...
By which time the defendant has likely used up all resources and funds;
Have they? So who are those people in the Appeals Court then?
we've reached the point where the process is the punishment
I've been to court, and spent a day in the cells because of it. Even then it wasn't as bad as you make it sound. I still prefer this system to the one you have failed to offer as an alternative.
You know that kids have been prosecuted for producing child porn after taking naked selfies, right?
Yes, and I know of some cases where the punishment was a warning and a note on file. No prison term or burning at the stake...
"child porn" is a legal definition and casts a wide net.
And judges have this thing called discretion. Look it up.
Sure it encompasses the scum who should be jailed for life but it is wide enough to capture teenagers who have done no harm to anyone.
Sometimes yes sometimes no. That's why we have people called "Judges" who get to apply their brain to the problem (known as "Judgement") Thousands of kids do this everyday, and I know of none in prison for it. Maybe the system is as bad as you think?
If the crime is just "being a computer professional", then yes, best is to not give in to the madness.
Like just being a doctor? They have these same laws already, and the sky hasn't fallen on anyone's head...
Well, many consider those laws to be retarded for a reason...
That's because there's no such thing as a witch or magic. How this relates to pedos is beyond me...
Very relevant, indeed. Think about it.
I did and still came up empty.
So the banana's just a switch?
Yes, it looks like it just replaces the WPS button.
Also, I don't see how they can't use the wifi from outside the building once they have the password. Unless they expire, which you can do without any fruit at all.
I'm assuming the controller is on a timer, which is fairly standard these days. The banana is merely a supposedly more fun way of pressing a button (yes lame in my opinion, but that's all you need to make the front page these days - and because Raspberry Pi!)
What happens in a courtroom and what gets reported are usually two vastly different things.
And sometimes, you get the occasion to go and watch such a trial first hand, and you see that the reality is actually much worse.
Which is why the appeals court exists.
We all know the system isn't perfect, and it's easy to knock the odd case that misses, but I can't see how not reporting crime improves this system?
So, just don't brag about it.
It sounds so simple right? You'd be surprised how many people get caught by their own mouth...
In Italy? In 1716? Because that's relevant to this discussion...
and when she's a month from her 18th birthday she sends you a naughty picture and someone finds out and now you're in jail and a sexual offender. Is this very logical?
No, which is why it doesn't happen outside your imagination..
Yes, a high school couple (at least one of whom is 17) sexting each other is definitely causing harm to innocent victims!
Most legislations have provisions for these types of cases, or did you seriously think you were smarter than everyone else?
The child porn laws are broken, very badly. There's no room in them for taking the actual situation into consideration.
Yes there is. Instead of getting your legal advice from the back of a cornflake packet, maybe do some research so you won't sound so foolish...
I foresee an uptick in cases of children being ripped from their parents because Mummy or Daddy took a picture of their child playing in the pool.
Do you? How will you measure this 'uptick' to work out if you were right, or just a crackpot?
The real point of the law is to strengthen the idea that people in non-law enforcement professions can be forced into acting as police.
Um, "Police" comes from the word policy, ie In the civil and criminal security model, the politicians, create policy, the police enforce it, and the courts are used to decide if policy has been broken or not. In this system, most crime is "reported" by civilians, nothing changes here. This is exactly what already happens with doctors and domestic violence and drug cases.
Next, teachers who hear students talk about violence are forced to report the student to the authorities. Librarians who lend out books about Islamic extremism must notify DHS.
That already happens, because if regular people don't get involved, the system breaks.
It's a path to curtail civil liberties, and of course it starts with child pornography.
Take off the tinfoil hat dude, you're going full retard...
HIPAA can send you to jail. Classified data can get you the death penalty. As long as I follow policies, I don't have a problem.
Following policies also can get you in jail. Good luck with that strategy...
You're overlooking the fact that my coworkers and I were following hospital policy by informing and cooperating with security.
WTF?
The law trumps your employer's employment policy. Where do you live? Do you realise you have just admitted your guilt in aiding a felony?
I once had a job that involved me working in people's homes and my general rule was mind my own business and get the job done. I think most workers feel the same way.
Speak for yourself. Everyone I know who worked as Sysadmin used to sniff through other people's stuff just for kicks. We've also had a few cases of baggage handlers (freight monkeys, not security) at the airports rummaging through people's bags. So I disagree. You're less likely to sniff through someone's stuff in *their* house, but when their property is at your place, and you're bored, a different set of rules apply.
Where's the training course where we're taught to identify people 15 years old compared to 16 years old?
Just like when you see a dude running into a bank with a gun, how do you know if he's a crook or a cop?
What about a suitcase left at an airport?
You don't have to know, make a phone call and let the people who can find out, do their job.
Imagine you're an IT professional, and you report your client for having what turns out to be (after the court case) harmless pictures of his children,
Just out of interest, what is an example of a photo where you think this could possibly happen?
I don't know too many parents that put their dick in their children's mouths...
I would think about the guy who spent a couple of months in jail amd nearly spent years in prison over a DVD with 19-year old Lupe Fuentes.
This has been mentioned a few times in this thread so I did a quick Google (the very thing everyone is accusing the prosecutors of this case of not doing). A few things to note:
Nowhere reputable says this guy spent time in jail (Never trust newspapers with court stories). The court docs say he was given bail, which means he's not in jail while the trail is being prepared. There's even a mention that he breached bail and the court let him off with a warning. And the case got dismissed, so there's no official record of jail time.
He was arrested for possessing what looks like kiddy porn. Google Little Lupe Fuentes, she looked like a kid in this video even if she wasn't. What should an LEO do in this case, just ignore a possible CP case based on...??? Arrest is the reasonable course of action and let the court decide. That's how the legal system works.
Even if Lupe wasn't under age, what is this guy doing with material that *looks* like kiddy porn? Did he actually know himself, or did he buy it thinking she was a kid? We can't know, but as a common porn user, I won't go anywhere near anything that looks illegal, so makes me suspect when others do.
The summary of the event is a guy with porn that looked like kiddy porn got arrested. The court found out through due process that she wasn't a kid and he got off. Ignoring all kiddy porn because of this one example seems to be a strange course of action IMO. It seems reasonable to me that any suspect cases should be reported, and let the people who decide, do their job.