Preamble: This thread strays a trifle off topic. Just to provide a new view point for the obviously myopic.I apologise.
Boy! that has been a lot of men (and thankfully there were representatives from both factions of feminism) ranting about this topic. Here is my tuppence as a young woman.
I am unmarried, but I do have an idea on the subject. The man who wrote that women should stay at home and rear children must indeed be pretty short-sighted. Let me show you why a working woman can very well manage her children.
Granted that babies need mummy around for a few months. There are solutions such as telecommuting for that these days. And many companies are very understanding as far as maternity leave is concerned, I understand. They apparently put up with a lot of telecommutable hours.
After that, daycares are really ok. I agree that daycares are 'a mixed bag'. But opinion of friends can help choose a healthy daycare centre. In anycase, most big companies have a daycare of sorts right in their basement! So mummies can be around even during office hours (feeding time etc.), lunch hour, tea-time etc.That is sufficient.
After 3yrs it is school-time. It is of course nice, if you have mum at home ready with your tea and some freshly made snack, curious to know what transpired in school that day. (I have had that luxury for a while.) But then, it is not psychologically shattering or demoralising or any such disasterous consequence if no one is home when you come back from school. Most of my life has been that way. Big deal.I seem to have turned out normal enough.;-) . Psychologists exaggerate problems a great deal. Take it at 70% of face-value only.:) You simply learn to take things from the refrigerator and microwave and eat and go to play. When you come back from play, your parents are probably home already. That is fine. Only that atleast one parent should be responsible enough to leave things in the fridge for the kids to eat when they come home; and preferably they are fresh enough too.:-) And when they meet their children, they should take time off to share their day's worth with each other and maybe help with homework.. This is important.
My example of food is just an illustration. These are things that affect in small but significant ways in the growing up process. It is not so important that parents are home ALL the time. What is necessary is that they should be around when the shild has a problem. And of course, they should be able to build a trust relationship with their children so strong that the first person the child thinks of when encountering trouble is either mum or dad. And parents should be receptive to their children's woes, however small or trivial.
Who says working parents can't manage kids? They definitely can and do a good job of it too. And examples abound. You may want to look around and be pleasantly surprised.:)
First some rebuttal.;) (snip) Also, I notice that girls who profess to be interested in computers rarely are in the same way that most linux users are. (/snip)
Beg to differ, gentlem[a/e]n.
It is indeed a fact that few women use Linux. but remember that those that use came to it 'cos it attracted and appealed and more often than not, struggled against horrible odds to do so succesfully. So they literally swear by it!
That is not the case with men. I can show you any number of men who have picked up and mastered Linux to exploit its open-sourceness to create trade-marked stuff! It is possible given the looseness of GPL. And many of them don't give a damn about Linux itself. They churn out documents in WORD, dammit!
(snip) most girls do not have the personalities to be into computers (/snip)
ok, you said 'most', so you escape;) haha:)) Sincerely, I agree with you. Girls can get so bloody smug! That was the case with me too a few years back...until this man came along and challenged. And it sparked a whole new 'personality', as you call it.
Lady-Linuxian MINI-HOWTO ;)
It is all in the environment. Women need the trust, encouragement and the acceptance. You want more geek-girls? I'll tell you what to do! Pick up the most proud-peahen in the group and tell her in your most dismissing tone, "Linux is not for girls" and watch her go! haha. serious. Just remember to throw in a few "good going, my lady" remarks and she'll be so good you'll start!
There are two things that prevent girls from growing up into computer freaks.
Different pshychology and focus from childhood.
Face it, peer-pressure matters
As the previous person said, girls are expected to be worried about manners, societal behaviour and presentation more than anything else. Family is numero uno. Career, they are told, is just secondary. (except in rare cases).
Extensive discussions with women in technology tell me that family and such are even today a big hurdle to women's progress in these fields. Most people (incuding women) believe that technology and stuff are part of a man's world. Psychology, pharmacy, nursing, fine arts, homescience etc. are women's fields.
More importantly, even if a girl decides to do it differently and actually try to penetrate that forbidden territory, one has to face it that most men _just_ _dont_ _accept_. For one, there is a sheer lack of female peer-group; two, the male group, not only does not help, but chides! You need tremendous amount of weill power to get over it initially. The blatant discouragement later turns into cautious acceptance; and finally taken to be 'a cheery exception'!
And the solution? Well, you just have to be very lucky to have someone constantly encouraging you. And for your own part, you have to be extremely self-willed. I got lucky with both the above.:))
Experience speaks, guys. Exclusively using Linux for a year now, trust me, I know!
P.S. 'guys' is a uni-gender term. So ladies, do not take offence.;)
Slashdot Mirror
Boy! that has been a lot of men (and thankfully there were representatives from both factions of feminism) ranting about this topic. Here is my tuppence as a young woman.
I am unmarried, but I do have an idea on the subject. The man who wrote that women should stay at home and rear children must indeed be pretty short-sighted. Let me show you why a working woman can very well manage her children.
Granted that babies need mummy around for a few months. There are solutions such as telecommuting for that these days. And many companies are very understanding as far as maternity leave is concerned, I understand. They apparently put up with a lot of telecommutable hours.
After that, daycares are really ok. I agree that daycares are 'a mixed bag'. But opinion of friends can help choose a healthy daycare centre. In anycase, most big companies have a daycare of sorts right in their basement! So mummies can be around even during office hours (feeding time etc.), lunch hour, tea-time etc.That is sufficient.
After 3yrs it is school-time. It is of course nice, if you have mum at home ready with your tea and some freshly made snack, curious to know what transpired in school that day. (I have had that luxury for a while.) But then, it is not psychologically shattering or demoralising or any such disasterous consequence if no one is home when you come back from school. Most of my life has been that way. Big deal.I seem to have turned out normal enough. ;-) . Psychologists exaggerate problems a great deal. Take it at 70% of face-value only. :) You simply learn to take things from the refrigerator and microwave and eat and go to play. When you come back from play, your parents are probably home already. That is fine. Only that atleast one parent should be responsible enough to leave things in the fridge for the kids to eat when they come home; and preferably they are fresh enough too. :-) And when they meet their children, they should take time off to share their day's worth with each other and maybe help with homework.. This is important.
My example of food is just an illustration. These are things that affect in small but significant ways in the growing up process. It is not so important that parents are home ALL the time. What is necessary is that they should be around when the shild has a problem. And of course, they should be able to build a trust relationship with their children so strong that the first person the child thinks of when encountering trouble is either mum or dad. And parents should be receptive to their children's woes, however small or trivial.
Who says working parents can't manage kids? They definitely can and do a good job of it too. And examples abound. You may want to look around and be pleasantly surprised.:)
--gND.http://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~sujathan
(snip) Also, I notice that girls who profess to be interested in computers rarely are in the same way that most linux users are. (/snip)
Beg to differ, gentlem[a/e]n.
It is indeed a fact that few women use Linux. but remember that those that use came to it 'cos it attracted and appealed and more often than not, struggled against horrible odds to do so succesfully. So they literally swear by it!
That is not the case with men. I can show you any number of men who have picked up and mastered Linux to exploit its open-sourceness to create trade-marked stuff! It is possible given the looseness of GPL. And many of them don't give a damn about Linux itself. They churn out documents in WORD, dammit!
(snip) most girls do not have the personalities to be into computers (/snip)ok, you said 'most', so you escape ;) haha :)) Sincerely, I agree with you. Girls can get so bloody smug! That was the case with me too a few years back...until this man came along and challenged. And it sparked a whole new 'personality', as you call it.
Lady-Linuxian MINI-HOWTOIt is all in the environment. Women need the trust, encouragement and the acceptance. You want more geek-girls? I'll tell you what to do! Pick up the most proud-peahen in the group and tell her in your most dismissing tone, "Linux is not for girls" and watch her go! haha. serious. Just remember to throw in a few "good going, my lady" remarks and she'll be so good you'll start!
There are two things that prevent girls from growing up into computer freaks.
As the previous person said, girls are expected to be worried about manners, societal behaviour and presentation more than anything else. Family is numero uno. Career, they are told, is just secondary. (except in rare cases).
Extensive discussions with women in technology tell me that family and such are even today a big hurdle to women's progress in these fields. Most people (incuding women) believe that technology and stuff are part of a man's world. Psychology, pharmacy, nursing, fine arts, homescience etc. are women's fields.
More importantly, even if a girl decides to do it differently and actually try to penetrate that forbidden territory, one has to face it that most men _just_ _dont_ _accept_. For one, there is a sheer lack of female peer-group; two, the male group, not only does not help, but chides! You need tremendous amount of weill power to get over it initially. The blatant discouragement later turns into cautious acceptance; and finally taken to be 'a cheery exception'!
And the solution? Well, you just have to be very lucky to have someone constantly encouraging you. And for your own part, you have to be extremely self-willed. I got lucky with both the above. :))
Experience speaks, guys. Exclusively using Linux for a year now, trust me, I know!
P.S. 'guys' is a uni-gender term. So ladies, do not take offence.