I'm just trying to figure out how they are going to make anything of Open Solaris in the face of Linux. Few other markets unite HP, IBM, and a lot of other big names against a one-company product. Without an intellectual property attack from them, or from their new buddies MS, the product would not be successful.
We don't know for sure yet. They may be required to assign the copyright or relicensing rights to Sun. It may be specific to Solaris. We know that it is CDDL-specific because they announced and confirmed it.
We're not bothered that they held something back. We're bothered that they lied about it. They said they were giving all of the Open Source developers access to their patent, and that wasn't the case, the Linux developers were cut out.
I am on enough boards, thank you. If Sun chooses an outsider it would probably be Brian Behlendorf, who has been their contractor through collab.net for a long time. Or they could choose Danise Cooper from inside.
I am aware of what has been happening with the Harry Potter clones. But the audience here is having enough trouble understanding copyright as applied to software that I would put that topic off to a later stage of their education.
I confirmed with Sun's representative that the patents were only licensed for the CDDL and the OpenSolaris process. The legal text does not yet exist.
Sun has been posturing about Linux in a hostile way for about two years. I think that what we are seeing is the prelude to a patent lawsuit against Linux developers.
There is a fundamental difference between patents and copyright. Copyright covers the literal embodiment of someone else's work. Patents really cover ideas. They aren't supposed to, they are supposed to cover concrete implementations of ideas, but the computer has blurred that distinction.
Even if you never look at the other side's code, if you use a similar algorithm to theirs, and they've patented it, they can sue you for infringement. Even if you invented it independently. Indeed, some patents are so vaguely written that they can be used to sue people regarding ideas that were not yet invented when the patent was filed.
Supose that someone sued you and you knew you were right. Would you have the funds to prove that in court? Probably not. You'd have to admit they were right and settle for whatever terms they wish.
I can't overemphasize how badly the system stinks. It rewards bad actions at every level.
What are the odds that, of those 1,600 patents, NONE of them are violated by Linux in its current form?
OSRM has a list of patents they found that Linux might infringe upon. No court has ruled whether or not any of those patents are valid. My attorney can look at the list and answer some questions, but I can't look at it. If I did, it would contaminate my work on Linux and I might have to pay triple damages for knowing infringement rather than unknowing. The law is set up so that you get penalized if you look. This is just one of the many very bad things about the software patent system.
My fear is that without a direct patent attack on Linux, Sun has no hope of making further headway with Solaris. Give the Linux folks just two years and there will be no value left to Solaris, Linux will have far overtaken it.
Some folks with law degrees understand pieces better than I. I specialize in being a bridge between different groups, like law and engineering. Somebody's got to be able to explain one side to the other.
The point of my statement is that you can lie in a press release and most readers, even highly educated ones, won't realize. They don't have the specialized knowledge. So, it's up to people like us to point out details that others might miss.
This is a case where using an idea from the code you read can hurt you. Cut and paste is necessary to infringe on copyright, only use of a similar algorithm is necessary to infringe a patent.
I think the difference between IBM and Sun in this case is that IBM did not give us everything, but did not attempt to tell us that they were. Sun attempted to promote that they were giving more than they actually did.
If they offer it to all Open Source projects under all currently-accepted Open Source licenses, I'll sing it from the rooftops for them.
Specifically, the grant is promoted as being to the community of Open Source developers, but its terms restrict it to software that is under a license that is unique to Solaris. The Linux developers, who use a different license, can be sued for using the same patents. And Sun attempts to tell us how charitable a community member they are for doing this. It has a deceptive flavor that sticks in the craw of many Open Source developers.
You mean that Sun does not clearly state that they are not opening their portfolio to all Open Source developers. Indeed, I think they deceptively state that they are. When you read the fine print ("under the CDDL license and the OpenSolaris developer process") you only realize that they are not offering it to all Open Source projects if you understand Open Source licensing issues.
This is the second time that someone attempting to do PR for Sun in this thread has mentoned a magazine award as proof of the quality of the OpenOffice community. Although in this case it's not even a magazine, just a weblog. And like the last time, the award did not attempt to judge the quality of the community and so does not back up your assertion. And in any case you should know that magazine awards are made to get publicity for the magazine, and there's no sense reading much deep meaning into them.
Is this really all you folks can come up with?
I believe that there are lots of reviewers and testers. I believe that there are non-technical project leads who don't work for Sun. But these are not developers.
I think there is a non-Sun technical project lead who works for Red Hat, and maybe a few others who work for Sun contractors. Show me the volunteer developers. List their names and recent contributions. Explain things like the dead Mac port.
Actually, it's the need to encourage innovation. Protection is the means, to encourage innovation is the end. And there are deep and serious questions regarding whether software patenting promotes or retards innovation in general.
I really don't think Sun intends to be misleading.
I wish I could believe that. I was careful to confirm that the patent grant was CDDL-specific. We already know that. It may indeed be Solaris-specific or specific to folks who assign their copyrights to Sun, that is the sort of detail we have yet to find out.
If Sun folks did not wish to be deceptive, they would not have promoted it as a bigger deal than the IBM grant, which really does apply to almost all Open Source projects.
If you are, I cannot believe I used to respect you.
Don't say stuff like that before you even understand what I am talking about.
My point is that Sun has not been successful in building much of an outside developer community, for what should be the second most important software program in all of Open Source software, behind only the kernel. Of the people participating, a good many are Sun contractors, etc. And it's difficult to find very many volunteers.
I serve on the board of Open Source Risk Management and collect no salary. The company has graciously paid for some airline tickets in order for me to lobby against European software patenting, etc. They have never attempted to set my agenda. They are useful to the Free Software community as an aggregator of defense services. They have an incentive to protect Open Source developers from legal claims that could effect OSRM's customers. In other words, they are one of the few companies that we can really count as being on our side in the software patent fight. Why wouldn't I help them?
It's remotely possible that I could make some money from OSRM stock someday, but that's never worked before. I own about 8% of Progeny Linux Inc., and haven't made a cent from that. All of my money is coming from speaking and consulting. Nobody pays for my work on Open Source, which takes up about half my time, so I have to pay for it myself.
You're the one to pick the welfare system as a metaphor of another legal thing you don't approve of. If I were out to criticize you personally, I'd use the ad-hominem fallacy, etc. Instead, I criticized your argument. And I used the word "you" because you're responsible for your argument.
Well, you compared them to poor people on public assistance, which is even more absurd.
They are threatening me, and my friends. That's generally going to get them called thugs.IBM presents patent problems too, and if you look back in a press archive, you can see I've been very vocal about the IBM problem too.
SunFan, no amount of your repetition will convince anyone that this is about the CDDL. It's about the patent grant that is actually a threat. It's deceptive. If that word is too long for you, how about "lie". Its publicity certainly was a lie. Most companies haven't told similar lies. Most companies are smart enough not to make similar threats to the one that Sun's just made.
I do what I can to fight software patents. I logged 50,000 air miles last year because the battle is on both sides of the Atlantic. Throwing the dialogue of patent blackmailers back in their face is part of that.
Slashdot Mirror
Bruce
Bruce
Bruce
We're not bothered that they held something back. We're bothered that they lied about it. They said they were giving all of the Open Source developers access to their patent, and that wasn't the case, the Linux developers were cut out.
Bruce
Bruce
Bruce
Bruce
Sun has been posturing about Linux in a hostile way for about two years. I think that what we are seeing is the prelude to a patent lawsuit against Linux developers.
Bruce
Even if you never look at the other side's code, if you use a similar algorithm to theirs, and they've patented it, they can sue you for infringement. Even if you invented it independently. Indeed, some patents are so vaguely written that they can be used to sue people regarding ideas that were not yet invented when the patent was filed.
Supose that someone sued you and you knew you were right. Would you have the funds to prove that in court? Probably not. You'd have to admit they were right and settle for whatever terms they wish.
I can't overemphasize how badly the system stinks. It rewards bad actions at every level.
Bruce
OSRM has a list of patents they found that Linux might infringe upon. No court has ruled whether or not any of those patents are valid. My attorney can look at the list and answer some questions, but I can't look at it. If I did, it would contaminate my work on Linux and I might have to pay triple damages for knowing infringement rather than unknowing. The law is set up so that you get penalized if you look. This is just one of the many very bad things about the software patent system.
My fear is that without a direct patent attack on Linux, Sun has no hope of making further headway with Solaris. Give the Linux folks just two years and there will be no value left to Solaris, Linux will have far overtaken it.
Bruce
The point of my statement is that you can lie in a press release and most readers, even highly educated ones, won't realize. They don't have the specialized knowledge. So, it's up to people like us to point out details that others might miss.
Bruce
This is a case where using an idea from the code you read can hurt you. Cut and paste is necessary to infringe on copyright, only use of a similar algorithm is necessary to infringe a patent.
Bruce
Thanks
Bruce
Specifically, the grant is promoted as being to the community of Open Source developers, but its terms restrict it to software that is under a license that is unique to Solaris. The Linux developers, who use a different license, can be sued for using the same patents. And Sun attempts to tell us how charitable a community member they are for doing this. It has a deceptive flavor that sticks in the craw of many Open Source developers.
Bruce
Bruce
Is this really all you folks can come up with?
I believe that there are lots of reviewers and testers. I believe that there are non-technical project leads who don't work for Sun. But these are not developers.
I think there is a non-Sun technical project lead who works for Red Hat, and maybe a few others who work for Sun contractors. Show me the volunteer developers. List their names and recent contributions. Explain things like the dead Mac port.
Bruce
Actually, it's the need to encourage innovation. Protection is the means, to encourage innovation is the end. And there are deep and serious questions regarding whether software patenting promotes or retards innovation in general.
Bruce
I wish I could believe that. I was careful to confirm that the patent grant was CDDL-specific. We already know that. It may indeed be Solaris-specific or specific to folks who assign their copyrights to Sun, that is the sort of detail we have yet to find out.
If Sun folks did not wish to be deceptive, they would not have promoted it as a bigger deal than the IBM grant, which really does apply to almost all Open Source projects.
Bruce
Don't say stuff like that before you even understand what I am talking about.
My point is that Sun has not been successful in building much of an outside developer community, for what should be the second most important software program in all of Open Source software, behind only the kernel. Of the people participating, a good many are Sun contractors, etc. And it's difficult to find very many volunteers.
Bruce
It's remotely possible that I could make some money from OSRM stock someday, but that's never worked before. I own about 8% of Progeny Linux Inc., and haven't made a cent from that. All of my money is coming from speaking and consulting. Nobody pays for my work on Open Source, which takes up about half my time, so I have to pay for it myself.
Bruce
I spoke with a vice-president.
You're the one to pick the welfare system as a metaphor of another legal thing you don't approve of. If I were out to criticize you personally, I'd use the ad-hominem fallacy, etc. Instead, I criticized your argument. And I used the word "you" because you're responsible for your argument.
Bruce
In my experience, Sun listens best when you write and publish things about them.Bruce
Well, you compared them to poor people on public assistance, which is even more absurd.
They are threatening me, and my friends. That's generally going to get them called thugs.IBM presents patent problems too, and if you look back in a press archive, you can see I've been very vocal about the IBM problem too.
Bruce
I do what I can to fight software patents. I logged 50,000 air miles last year because the battle is on both sides of the Atlantic. Throwing the dialogue of patent blackmailers back in their face is part of that.
Bruce