Ada's other very big problem IMO was that as a language it was just too large. I always thought it had too many ways of doing the same thing - I prefer simplicity, which is why C and Java are my two favourite languages (and maybe Scheme).
Java solves these problems and is the right tool for many large software projects. C/C++ is the right tool for drivers, kernel modules and CLI binaries which need swift execution (where JVM start up time is not acceptable)
As someone who has coded in C and C++ for decades, as well as Java and Lisp for a long time, recently Delphi and C#, I really can't understand the/. mentality regarding Java.
IMO for 99% of large programming tasks, Java is the best bet. It is well designed, secure, quick to develop with and runs fast. For small programming tasks, Python is probably a better options, but I usally program 'in the large' - systems which are highly complex and which benefit from Java's strictness regarding types and exception checking.
Sepak for yourself. I hate C#, whereas I like Java for most programming (drivers and kernel modules excluded)
This is due to buggy tools and a crap API mainly. But there are some ***stupid*** things in C# which it got from it's Delphi inheirtence - like properties. E.g.: this won't work in C# if b and c are properties:
a.b.c = xyz;
But it will if they're ordinary members.
That's just one example, I have lots of other bugbears about that steaming pile of shit (security, language 'features'), but suffice to say, Java and C# are anything but 'neck and neck'.
Well, there are several projects available which make OpenGL available for Java programmers.
Lightweight Java Game Library
Open GL for Java
Don't think the second one is still being developed, but I think Sun is working on something more up to date.
Java3D is typically about half the speed of using Jogl (the Java OpenGL bindings).
Jogl runs at about 80-100% of the speed of equivallent c++ / openGL depending on how much batching of data you do.
Of course, Jogl is very low level (it's just openGL) whereas J3D is a whole scenegraph implementation. J3D is also not designed for high performance - it sacrifices speed for ease of use. People wanting a scenegraph in Jave oriented towards games programming should look at Xith3D
Self modifying code takes a performance hit on modern processors because you have to flush the instruction cache.
Additionaly, you can get a somewhat similar feature in Java by compiling and loading code at runtime (not trivial with C++)
The fact that Carmack isn't writing Doom 3 in Java probably means that his tools are better for what he wants to do, not that Java is slow. Additionally, how many games dev tools and pipelines are written in Java? None, it's only an option now (it has been too slow before) and so it's new on the block when C/C++ have long established tool sets and libraries for them. Noone will throw away their investment in tools for a new language unless it offers significant advantages over what they already use - which Java probably doesn't do, even if it has similar performance.
You say proper design-time optimisation is better than compile-time optimisation. This is true, but it is just as true for Java as it is for C++. Smart java code is faster than dumb java code just as the same holds for C++.
Right, so you're saying that every language other than C++ is irrellevant?
Re:Can I have an infinite budget to write the code
on
Java Faster Than C++?
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· Score: 1
Pascal and C are about as similar as are C# and Java. In many regards, they are the same class of language, but there are still features that may be must haves or must-not-haves in deciding between them.
That's a single branch - true / false - so you can take two paths at once. That's not what I'm talking about (and it's not a differentiator between Java / non-java code anyway).
Runtime constants are things a user-supplied value you multiply each cell in a large array by - instead of loading the value from memory, you could use an immediate value.
Re:Can I have an infinite budget to write the code
on
Java Faster Than C++?
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· Score: 2, Interesting
Almost exactly the same?
C# doesn't have checked exceptions. C# allows the use of pointers. C# has pass by reference. C# has one major IDE (Visual Studio) which has a RAD philosophy which *does* prevent some valid C# code being written. C# has properties a-la Delphi C# isn't portable. C# has a bitmap class which is as slow as hell compared to the Java equivallent. C# has operator overloading C# doesn't have inner classes that can access the members of their container clases C# doesn't have anonymous classes C# has delegates
There's just the differences I could pick off the top of my head.
A lot of the really significant differences aren't in the core language (though there are a few of those, which mainly strip back the safety and simplicity that Java provides) but in the libraries and IDE.
The IDE is really buggy and it forces RAD concepts on the programmer (shades of Delphi) which is a pain in the ass if you want to concentrate on code.
There are *plenty* of reasons to like Java and not C# - they are *not* "exactly the same"
Re:Java is not faster than optimized c++
on
Java Faster Than C++?
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· Score: 1, Insightful
Yeah,.NET is buggy as all hell and the tools have a real "beta" feel to them. I keep on getting prevented from doing perfectly legal things in the language (inheirance of panels or abstract classes) by the IDE because the %$#*$*!! GUI builder gets confused by them.
Not to mention the fact that the language is poorly designed. It has keywords like out and ref which do almost exactly the same thing. C# was designed by one of the guys behind Delphi AND IT SHOWS. The C# RAD environment is a PITA for people who want to concentrate on code, not pretty boxes.
Re:Can I have an infinite budget to write the code
on
Java Faster Than C++?
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· Score: 2, Interesting
I have two decades worth of programming experience, using most of the languages out there.
I'm currently coding in C# (which sucks arse) and Java for object tracking in video. The Java code rocks - it's simple to write, it works and it's really fast. Video processing uses lots of loops with runtime constants which the hotspot JVMs seem to generate extremely fast code for.
What? Because I gave Java another chance when it had matured and discovered that it's quite quiick these days?
That makes me a language bigot?
Rather than the typical/. post which is that Java is slow no matter what, or if it's not slow, then its ugly no matter what (ignoring the multiple GUI options like AWT / Swing / SWT or the skinnable options)?
Excuse me if I'm not especially polite about it, but I'm sick of hearing this crap from/. I don't care if you want to stick to C/C++ - I use those languages still for somethings (small CLI programs are a good example) I don't care if people stick to what they know, but this endless uninformed bigotry that's displayed on/. is just pathetic.
Slashdot Mirror
Ada's other very big problem IMO was that as a language it was just too large. I always thought it had too many ways of doing the same thing - I prefer simplicity, which is why C and Java are my two favourite languages (and maybe Scheme).
I prefer "pick the right tool for the job"
Java solves these problems and is the right tool for many large software projects. C/C++ is the right tool for drivers, kernel modules and CLI binaries which need swift execution (where JVM start up time is not acceptable)
As someone who has coded in C and C++ for decades, as well as Java and Lisp for a long time, recently Delphi and C#, I really can't understand the /. mentality regarding Java.
IMO for 99% of large programming tasks, Java is the best bet. It is well designed, secure, quick to develop with and runs fast. For small programming tasks, Python is probably a better options, but I usally program 'in the large' - systems which are highly complex and which benefit from Java's strictness regarding types and exception checking.
Sepak for yourself. I hate C#, whereas I like Java for most programming (drivers and kernel modules excluded)
This is due to buggy tools and a crap API mainly. But there are some ***stupid*** things in C# which it got from it's Delphi inheirtence - like properties. E.g.: this won't work in C# if b and c are properties:
a.b.c = xyz;
But it will if they're ordinary members.
That's just one example, I have lots of other bugbears about that steaming pile of shit (security, language 'features'), but suffice to say, Java and C# are anything but 'neck and neck'.
Here's one:
http://www.tribaltrouble.com/
Here's another:
http://www.wurmonline.com/
Troll elsewhere.
That's pretty much exactly what JOGL is (a thin wrapper over OpenGL using JNI)
Yup, check out Jogl: https://jogl.dev.java.net/
That's funny. I did a benchmark of floating point ops in M$ Visual Studio 6.0 versus Sun's old 1.4 JVM and found the performance was identical.
I suspect that getting the code to run 100 times slower required some real effort.
I'd agree. J3D has been compared to Java/OpenGL and found to be about half the speed.
If you're looking for high performance in 3D in Java, Jogl is a much better bet (being a thin OpenGL wrapper)
Java3D is typically about half the speed of using Jogl (the Java OpenGL bindings).
Jogl runs at about 80-100% of the speed of equivallent c++ / openGL depending on how much batching of data you do.
Of course, Jogl is very low level (it's just openGL) whereas J3D is a whole scenegraph implementation. J3D is also not designed for high performance - it sacrifices speed for ease of use. People wanting a scenegraph in Jave oriented towards games programming should look at Xith3D
Self modifying code takes a performance hit on modern processors because you have to flush the instruction cache.
Additionaly, you can get a somewhat similar feature in Java by compiling and loading code at runtime (not trivial with C++)
The fact that Carmack isn't writing Doom 3 in Java probably means that his tools are better for what he wants to do, not that Java is slow. Additionally, how many games dev tools and pipelines are written in Java? None, it's only an option now (it has been too slow before) and so it's new on the block when C/C++ have long established tool sets and libraries for them. Noone will throw away their investment in tools for a new language unless it offers significant advantages over what they already use - which Java probably doesn't do, even if it has similar performance.
You say proper design-time optimisation is better than compile-time optimisation. This is true, but it is just as true for Java as it is for C++. Smart java code is faster than dumb java code just as the same holds for C++.
Right, so you're saying that every language other than C++ is irrellevant?
Pascal and C are about as similar as are C# and Java. In many regards, they are the same class of language, but there are still features that may be must haves or must-not-haves in deciding between them.
That's a single branch - true / false - so you can take two paths at once. That's not what I'm talking about (and it's not a differentiator between Java / non-java code anyway).
Runtime constants are things a user-supplied value you multiply each cell in a large array by - instead of loading the value from memory, you could use an immediate value.
Hotspot JVMs have been out for years.
Some optimisations can only be done at runtime.
Almost exactly the same?
C# doesn't have checked exceptions.
C# allows the use of pointers.
C# has pass by reference.
C# has one major IDE (Visual Studio) which has a RAD philosophy which *does* prevent some valid C# code being written.
C# has properties a-la Delphi
C# isn't portable.
C# has a bitmap class which is as slow as hell compared to the Java equivallent.
C# has operator overloading
C# doesn't have inner classes that can access the members of their container clases
C# doesn't have anonymous classes
C# has delegates
There's just the differences I could pick off the top of my head.
A lot of the really significant differences aren't in the core language (though there are a few of those, which mainly strip back the safety and simplicity that Java provides) but in the libraries and IDE.
The IDE is really buggy and it forces RAD concepts on the programmer (shades of Delphi) which is a pain in the ass if you want to concentrate on code.
There are *plenty* of reasons to like Java and not C# - they are *not* "exactly the same"
(1) Do a google for "runtime optimisation"
(2) Get a clue
Yeah, .NET is buggy as all hell and the tools have a real "beta" feel to them. I keep on getting prevented from doing perfectly legal things in the language (inheirance of panels or abstract classes) by the IDE because the %$#*$*!! GUI builder gets confused by them.
Not to mention the fact that the language is poorly designed. It has keywords like out and ref which do almost exactly the same thing. C# was designed by one of the guys behind Delphi AND IT SHOWS. The C# RAD environment is a PITA for people who want to concentrate on code, not pretty boxes.
I have two decades worth of programming experience, using most of the languages out there.
I'm currently coding in C# (which sucks arse) and Java for object tracking in video. The Java code rocks - it's simple to write, it works and it's really fast. Video processing uses lots of loops with runtime constants which the hotspot JVMs seem to generate extremely fast code for.
Runtime optimisation. You can optimise some things at run time which cannot be optimised ahead of time (e.g. runtime constants)
This is a great example of how clueless the /. language bigots are regarding Java. Your lead point is wrong now and always has been.
For years it was "Java is too slow" Now it's too ugly??
Sheesh.
I'm sure one of Swing (with it's several different look and feels and skinnable interface) or SWT or AWT will fit the bill.
The OpenGL bindings for Java work just fine and there's no reason why any individual couldn't write a wrapper for DX for Java if they so wished.
What? Because I gave Java another chance when it had matured and discovered that it's quite quiick these days?
/. post which is that Java is slow no matter what, or if it's not slow, then its ugly no matter what (ignoring the multiple GUI options like AWT / Swing / SWT or the skinnable options)?
/. I don't care if you want to stick to C/C++ - I use those languages still for somethings (small CLI programs are a good example) I don't care if people stick to what they know, but this endless uninformed bigotry that's displayed on /. is just pathetic.
That makes me a language bigot?
Rather than the typical
Excuse me if I'm not especially polite about it, but I'm sick of hearing this crap from