"Think about it, would it benefit the people of your state more if you had a congressman who is chairman of the powerful Approprations Commitee or just another freshman who is a junior member on the National Flower Day committee?"
It all depends on whether you see yourself as an American or not. If you are an American you should expect your congress critter to do what is right for America, not what is right for the people living their district.
Even if your critter is bringing home the bacon you should still throw them out if as a result they are harming people in other states.
"No, I'm properly measuring whether or not our security system is working with the proper data set."
Actually you are merely guessing. You presume that the fact that no attacks have taken place is because of patriot or some other nonsense. This of course completely ignores the fact news organizations are able to routinely sneak in radioactive materials, weapons and all kinds of nasty things on to airplanes and into this country.
As for the shoe bomber he actually got on the plane he was just inept. I have no idea what you mean by the dirty bomb scare.
"You may be trying to argue that we're spending more than necessary on security-"
I wasn't arguing that but it's a good point. The extra expenditures on security by US corporations will most likely erode some of their competitive advantage.
"Uhm, the security alert being Orange is the system in action, not a failure of a system. When's the last time you saw a terrorist attack on American soil? 9/11/01? Well, then, the system's working as far as anyone can measure."
Yes but you are attributing this effect to the wrong cause. You see on 9/11 I found a weird shaped coin on the street. I then said to myself "as long as I have this coin in my pocket no further terrorist attacks will occur on US soil". As you well know since that time there have been no attacks on US soil so it's working as far as anyone can measure.
Why don't we tag all incoming people with RFIDs. It would be easy to implant the tags under their skin and track all their movements as they move about the country. I bet that will catch even more then doing nothing or fingerprinting.
It's made from my experience in the military. Granted it's not scientific but it's based on first hand experience.
"The people that volunteer for the US military by and large do not do so to "kill people"."
They know full well that that might very well have to kill people or be killed. Of course anybody who volunteers to serve after a conflict has already started knows full well that there is a high probability they will be asked to kill.
"I don't see any but the super hard line Orthodox people thinking that an OT style purge would be of any benefit for the very reasons you listed."
Yes. The hard liners have a few seats in parliment but not a lot. OTOH they are a crucial force to be reckoned with when forming coalitions.
"Having influence does not mean they are the puppet of the US or vice versa."
the relationship is complex to be sure. One would expect a country a country which receives billions of dollars from US taxpayers to be a little more respectful of our president though.
"Your definition of a democracy doesn't jive with Webster's or the reality in Israel. "
Isreal is a Jewish state. As long as it remains a jawish state it can't be called a true democracy no matter what websters says.
"There are over 1 million muslims in Israel proper (not the disputed territories) that are full blown citizens."
Yes. They are small minority. They are subject to slightly different laws and it's legal to discriminate against them when it comes to housing and such.
"Since Lebanon fell to Syrian control,"
When did that happen?
"t's one of the few places in the Middle East where muslim women can vote in real elections."
This is confusing as hell. Are you saying that women in syria are one of few places where they can vote? That seems like an odd statement.
Muslim women can vote in Turkey, India pakistan. egypt, lebanon, syria, iran, indonesia, java, and in the vast majority of other countries in the world. In fact Pakistan had a muslim women prime minister.
" I guess you should inform them, they aren't a "real" democracy."
Once again. Israel is a jewish nation. It's for the jews. The main reason the arabs in the occupied terratories are not allowed to be citizens is because there are too many of them. If they became israeli citizens israel would no longer be a jewish state.
Israel can not simultaneously be a jewish state and a true democracy. They are simply contradicting principles. Democracies are not supposed to favor one race or religion over another.
What worked for railroads will not work for IT because the players have no interest in playing nice with each other. Each company wants to make their own proprietary version of everything and lock it up with patents and DRM.
Why do we have umpteen different voice and movie recording codecs? Why do we need so many DVD formats? Why didn't MS just use ldap and kerberos instead of rolling their own versions of it?
In what way are they relevant? As I said their charter was to prevent war. To prevent stonger nations from attacking weaker ones. To find diplomatic solutions to the problems of the world such as ethnic strife, starvation, disease etc.
On any account they have been collasal failures. Strong nations routinely violate the sovereignty of weaker ones. Starvation is common, africa is racked with aids and other diseases, there has never been a year without war.
I honestly don't see how anybody can claim that they are not irrelevant? What relevance to they have? They are powerless to effect any change in the world. If the US wanted to turn sryia into a parking lot could they do anything? If Israel wanted to cleanse the west bank of palestenians could the UN stop them? If China wanted to annex taiwan could the UN stop them?
unless you define relevant as powerless, inept, and useless they are irrelevant.
If the UN is so relevant how come they will not try Saddam Hussein? How come there are thousands of "illegal combatants" being held without any human rights in prisons all over the world. How come there is a nutcase in North Korea starving his people.
"I don't see where we disagree. Btw, you're not the Malcontent from SOCNET, are you?"
No.
The UN was not able to prevent a strong country from attacking, invading and occupying a weaker country. That makes them irrelevant. The UN charter was to avoid war and they have failed miserably for last few decades where not a year passed without a war going on someplace and that makes them irrelevant.
UN has no credibility because political avenues are dead. We are back to might makes right. Whoever has the most bombs makes the rules.
"But given the "2nd class status" and the growth of Israeli settlements, it's clear that Israel views the land as theirs and the refugees are not wanted."
The land clearly belongs to israel. They waged war, they won. They took over the land. It belongs to them. The only question is what to do with the people who have always lived on that land.
Most civilized countries eventually make the people they capture citizens. Even countries which we normally see as evil like China do that. Some truly evil countries try to purge the people old testament style. Israel chooses to do neither. They instead keep the people much like domesticated animals. Keep them fenced in and control their movements.
It's up to israel to decide whether or not it's a civilized country or if it wants to take up the baton left behind by Hitler and Stalin and start the purging. According to you their God is telling them to kill 3.5 million people which is a frightning thing in and of itself. Maybe they will listen to their God who knows. Their God certainly has had tremendous influence in all their political discourse. It would be one of the greates ironies of the world if a country born out of a holocaust would end up executing one themselves. In the end they may be satisfied by simply keeping the palestenians as domesticated animals much like south africa did with it's black population.
It's up to Israel. Are you a modern civlized democracy like the US? Are you a moden uncivlized democracy like south africa was? Are you like cambodia under pol pot or uganda under idi amin. Is Sharon more like Lincoln or is he more like Stalin. Time will tell.
"Also, given the importance of the region to the industrialized world, having a democratic nation that we can influence in the region is a benefit."
There are lots of things wrong with this sentence.
1) The presence of israel does not bring stability to the middle east. In fact it's the opposite.
2) We have little to no influence on Israel. It's the other way around. Both the Israeli and US politicians know who wears the pants in this partnership. Ariel Sharon has even said words to that effect. Look at how many times Bush told sharon to do something and Sharon basically ignored him and did whatever he wanted anyway. Bush has no influence on Sharon whatsoever.
3) Isreal is not a "real" democracy. It's a kind of democracy but with heavy theocratic overtones. It's a jewish state. A country which is Jewish (or muslim or christian) state can not claim to be a democracy. A democracy is for everyone regardless of their race, religion or color.
"Even if those mistakes were making such trade-offs as nuking a city as opposed to invading or letting the Soviet Union waltz in or not taking such things as the Sovient Union "mediate" seriously."
It's so easy to say no. So easy to register yourself as a conscientious objector. So easy to say "sorry general but I can't do that, why don't you let joe over there do it instead, he'd love to". So easy to choose a job rather then military service.
The fact is that the people who drop the bombs actually WANT to do it. They ask for the honor of killing other people. Ask anybody in the military and they will tell you how much they wish they were in Iraq instead of their base at home.
If there is god I am pretty sure he would punish the people who volunteered to kill more then anybody else.
As for not taking "mediate" seriously that's a more complex problem. By the time you need to wage war you have already made thousands of mistakes. War is a consequence of ineptitude.
"You've probably racked up enough sin to burn in hell for all times according to some religions.:P"
There is little doubt of that. For most religions simply not believing their god exists is enough to rot in hell.
"Umm, lawyers are the ones who get laws passed: that's what they do."
Yes bozo. Have you ever heard of lobbying? Are you aware that there are powerful organizations in the country that shape and frequently write the laws that get passed?
"But you just made assumptions to try & belittle me, as most do to others here."
Yes I did. By "you" I meant the plural "you" as in you geeks. Organzied also did not refer to how neat your desk was, it refereed to your ability to combine your efforts to benefit yourselves as a group.
"From what I have seen, unions are to protect the workers' rights against their employers."
Yadda, Yadda, Yadda. Keep thinking that.
"I didn't call anything "shit" and I certainly don't "keep calling them" anything."
And yet you used that word. Of all the words and analogies in the world you chose that one. It says something.
"You missed the point completely."
No you missed the point. Enjoy your job until it gets shipped to cambodia.
And it turns people into devils. No matter how lofty your perceptions of yourself you find out fast exactly how much evil lives inside of you when you pick up a gun and go to fight for god and country.
If there is a god, if there is a heaven, if there is a hell where do you think the people responsible for dropping those bombs will end up?
Maybe not but there is no doubt that the AMA and the ABA are amongst the most powerful lobbying organizations in this country.
That's the power of organization. The geeks are shmucks. Until you organize you will remaim shmucks while the doctors get legislation passed and the bar approves judges.
You keep calling them shit from your mothers basement while they pick up the phone and get the president on the other end of the line.
Corporate america is not interested in quality IT work. It's all about cheaper, faster not better. Sales people come up with some harebrained scheme, some blind idiot VPs call the CIO and demands it next week, CIO tell the development directory that is has to happen for no money, the development directory tells the project manger to drop whatever they are doing and start this new initiative, the coders snicker at "the yet another project that will be abandoned once the sales people change their minds" and fiddle half heartedly for a couple of weeks. It's all a big Kabuki dance. If you ever worked in corporate america you'd know.
And yet your typical union employee gets paid more and has better benetifts then a non union employee in the same field.
Obviously unions do benefit their members.
What you say about "organizations" also applies to the govt and corporations too and yet you never hear any argue that we should get rid of govt or corporations do you? (well maybe from a few nutcases).
In the end unions are a form of self defense. it's in the interest of management to keep labor prices low. The management is organized and disciplined and works very hard to keep the labor pool paid as low as possible and with minimal benefit neccessary to keep the employees from quitting. In the face of this it's imperitive that the labor pool also get organized and diciplined to counteract the downward pressure from the mgmt. It's the only way to negotiate a happy peace. If you don't unionize then you surrender.
I'd buy your theories if there was an actual thing as free markets or a level playing field.
Other posters have pointed out some flaws in your logic mainly about how the other countries don't have the same environmental standards and how they subsidize healthcare and education but there are other factors to consider too.
1) subsidized education. American workers have to charge more because they paid for their own education.
2) Different labor laws. In india people can be fired willy nilly and female workers can get abused with no recourse. In the US corporations can get sued if a female employee get abused or if people are terminated without cause.
2a) Overtime laws, familiy leave act, etc.
3) Although companies are free to move work overseas the workers themselves are not free to follow the jobs. I can't go to canada and take advantage of free health care or cheaper drugs but my boss can go there and outsource my job.
Since there is not a level playing field not only is protectionsism NOT stupid it's required.
BTW whose people who used to pick from the dump and now are working in a sweatshop will be back at the dump when the company leaves for even cheaper labor in cambodia or africa. Depending on outsourcing from the US leads to a boom/bust cycle and the corporations chase ever cheaper labor all over the world. Nike or Walmart are not going to tolerate demands for higher wages and as soon as some poor country someplace offers $.10 less and hour they will pull out and move.
"That's because it wants them to leave and go back to the countries it defeated"
It sounds like you need a lesson in history. Those people can't go back to their counries because they are where they have always been. In fact many of them came from what is known now as Israel.
What you are talking about is ethnic cleansing. Sometimes when countries invade other lands it chooses not to make the indeginous population citizens but instead attempts to purge them somehow. Stalin, hitler, pol pot, idi amin are just a few examples of leaders who took over and attempted ethnic cleasnins. Most recently it was attempted in Bosnia, you might have some memory of that affair.
As far as I know nobody in the Israeli govt have come out and said the west bank and gaza should be purged of 3.5 million palestenians so this is big news to me. If you have a link to any official articulating this position please let me know, I would love to read it.
If ethnic cleansing is the official policy of israel then it will probably be very hard to achieve it. I honestly don't know how you would displace 3.5 million people without awful bloodshed and mayhem.
"In fact, many refer to illegal immigrants from Mexico as the US' "Palestinians"."
The situation is a bit different. The mexicans are in our country illegally but the israel invaded the west bank and gaza and subjugated it's people.
"It doesn't really matter if any country in the region has the military might to wipe Israel off the map. It matters that they (leaders & population) would still like to and that desire is what has been fueling much of the radical Islamic terrorism in the world since the 70s."
It does matter. Who cares if someone wants to destroy you if they can't do anything about it.
As for fueling terrorism I agree 100% the hatred against israel the primary reason al-quada was able to raise money, recurit and attack the US. Of course in all fairness israel is not very well liked in most of the world.
"The world can thank them for giving the Iraqi nuke program a huge setback years ago."
On this I don't agree. Israel owes its existance to the US, it receives six to 12 billion in aid every year from the US, the least it could do is bomb a country or two once in a while. As far as I am concerned we don't owe israel shit, they owe us their very own existance. They need to do a hell of lot more to pay us back for all that we do for them.
Slashdot Mirror
"those were pictures of ISRAEL. "
If the gaza strip is a part of israel then why aren't the residents of there citizens of israel?
"Think about it, would it benefit the people of your state more if you had a congressman who is chairman of the powerful Approprations Commitee or just another freshman who is a junior member on the National Flower Day committee?"
It all depends on whether you see yourself as an American or not. If you are an American you should expect your congress critter to do what is right for America, not what is right for the people living their district.
Even if your critter is bringing home the bacon you should still throw them out if as a result they are harming people in other states.
"No, I'm properly measuring whether or not our security system is working with the proper data set."
Actually you are merely guessing. You presume that the fact that no attacks have taken place is because of patriot or some other nonsense. This of course completely ignores the fact news organizations are able to routinely sneak in radioactive materials, weapons and all kinds of nasty things on to airplanes and into this country.
As for the shoe bomber he actually got on the plane he was just inept. I have no idea what you mean by the dirty bomb scare.
"You may be trying to argue that we're spending more than necessary on security-"
I wasn't arguing that but it's a good point. The extra expenditures on security by US corporations will most likely erode some of their competitive advantage.
"Uhm, the security alert being Orange is the system in action, not a failure of a system. When's the last time you saw a terrorist attack on American soil? 9/11/01? Well, then, the system's working as far as anyone can measure."
Yes but you are attributing this effect to the wrong cause. You see on 9/11 I found a weird shaped coin on the street. I then said to myself "as long as I have this coin in my pocket no further terrorist attacks will occur on US soil". As you well know since that time there have been no attacks on US soil so it's working as far as anyone can measure.
Why don't we tag all incoming people with RFIDs. It would be easy to implant the tags under their skin and track all their movements as they move about the country. I bet that will catch even more then doing nothing or fingerprinting.
God I hope not.
The reason that DNS works and is so successful is because it has root servers. It's dsitributed and yet authoritive.
There is no reason to limit TLDs to just a handful. It's just artificial scarcity.
We should have thousands of TLDs. In fact every domain name should be a TLD. You should go to business.exxon not exxon.com.
Procmail is not a replacement for sendmail. Postfix and exim are two of the most popular replacements for sendmail although there are many others.
"Is made without any factual basis."
It's made from my experience in the military. Granted it's not scientific but it's based on first hand experience.
"The people that volunteer for the US military by and large do not do so to "kill people"."
They know full well that that might very well have to kill people or be killed. Of course anybody who volunteers to serve after a conflict has already started knows full well that there is a high probability they will be asked to kill.
"Yes, that is how "the system" "works.""
The system works like this. People who are organized and are able to raise enough money to influence legislation do. Other people get the shaft.
Doctors and lawyers and other unions organize and influence the govt. Geeks are too stupid and spiteful to do such a thing so they get the shaft.
"I think unions are outdated, corrupt organizations that steal money from their "members.""
You keep thinking that if it makes you feel better.
"It says that I can make an analogy."
No it says that you know how to make shitty analogies.
"I don't see any but the super hard line Orthodox people thinking that an OT style purge would be of any benefit for the very reasons you listed."
Yes. The hard liners have a few seats in parliment but not a lot. OTOH they are a crucial force to be reckoned with when forming coalitions.
"Having influence does not mean they are the puppet of the US or vice versa."
the relationship is complex to be sure. One would expect a country a country which receives billions of dollars from US taxpayers to be a little more respectful of our president though.
"Your definition of a democracy doesn't jive with Webster's or the reality in Israel. "
Isreal is a Jewish state. As long as it remains a jawish state it can't be called a true democracy no matter what websters says.
"There are over 1 million muslims in Israel proper (not the disputed territories) that are full blown citizens."
Yes. They are small minority. They are subject to slightly different laws and it's legal to discriminate against them when it comes to housing and such.
"Since Lebanon fell to Syrian control,"
When did that happen?
"t's one of the few places in the Middle East where muslim women can vote in real elections."
This is confusing as hell. Are you saying that women in syria are one of few places where they can vote? That seems like an odd statement.
Muslim women can vote in Turkey, India pakistan. egypt, lebanon, syria, iran, indonesia, java, and in the vast majority of other countries in the world. In fact Pakistan had a muslim women prime minister.
" I guess you should inform them, they aren't a "real" democracy."
Once again. Israel is a jewish nation. It's for the jews. The main reason the arabs in the occupied terratories are not allowed to be citizens is because there are too many of them. If they became israeli citizens israel would no longer be a jewish state.
Israel can not simultaneously be a jewish state and a true democracy. They are simply contradicting principles. Democracies are not supposed to favor one race or religion over another.
In IT the company which hates playing nice and insists on doing everything it's own way has a monopoly and is the biggest most profitable company.
What worked for railroads will not work for IT because the players have no interest in playing nice with each other. Each company wants to make their own proprietary version of everything and lock it up with patents and DRM.
Why do we have umpteen different voice and movie recording codecs? Why do we need so many DVD formats? Why didn't MS just use ldap and kerberos instead of rolling their own versions of it?
In what way are they relevant? As I said their charter was to prevent war. To prevent stonger nations from attacking weaker ones. To find diplomatic solutions to the problems of the world such as ethnic strife, starvation, disease etc.
On any account they have been collasal failures. Strong nations routinely violate the sovereignty of weaker ones. Starvation is common, africa is racked with aids and other diseases, there has never been a year without war.
I honestly don't see how anybody can claim that they are not irrelevant? What relevance to they have? They are powerless to effect any change in the world. If the US wanted to turn sryia into a parking lot could they do anything? If Israel wanted to cleanse the west bank of palestenians could the UN stop them? If China wanted to annex taiwan could the UN stop them?
unless you define relevant as powerless, inept, and useless they are irrelevant.
If the UN is so relevant how come they will not try Saddam Hussein? How come there are thousands of "illegal combatants" being held without any human rights in prisons all over the world. How come there is a nutcase in North Korea starving his people.
"I don't see where we disagree. Btw, you're not the Malcontent from SOCNET, are you?"
No.
The UN was not able to prevent a strong country from attacking, invading and occupying a weaker country. That makes them irrelevant. The UN charter was to avoid war and they have failed miserably for last few decades where not a year passed without a war going on someplace and that makes them irrelevant.
UN has no credibility because political avenues are dead. We are back to might makes right. Whoever has the most bombs makes the rules.
"But given the "2nd class status" and the growth of Israeli settlements, it's clear that Israel views the land as theirs and the refugees are not wanted."
The land clearly belongs to israel. They waged war, they won. They took over the land. It belongs to them. The only question is what to do with the people who have always lived on that land.
Most civilized countries eventually make the people they capture citizens. Even countries which we normally see as evil like China do that. Some truly evil countries try to purge the people old testament style. Israel chooses to do neither. They instead keep the people much like domesticated animals. Keep them fenced in and control their movements.
It's up to israel to decide whether or not it's a civilized country or if it wants to take up the baton left behind by Hitler and Stalin and start the purging. According to you their God is telling them to kill 3.5 million people which is a frightning thing in and of itself. Maybe they will listen to their God who knows. Their God certainly has had tremendous influence in all their political discourse. It would be one of the greates ironies of the world if a country born out of a holocaust would end up executing one themselves. In the end they may be satisfied by simply keeping the palestenians as domesticated animals much like south africa did with it's black population.
It's up to Israel. Are you a modern civlized democracy like the US? Are you a moden uncivlized democracy like south africa was? Are you like cambodia under pol pot or uganda under idi amin. Is Sharon more like Lincoln or is he more like Stalin. Time will tell.
"Also, given the importance of the region to the industrialized world, having a democratic nation that we can influence in the region is a benefit."
There are lots of things wrong with this sentence.
1) The presence of israel does not bring stability to the middle east. In fact it's the opposite.
2) We have little to no influence on Israel. It's the other way around. Both the Israeli and US politicians know who wears the pants in this partnership. Ariel Sharon has even said words to that effect. Look at how many times Bush told sharon to do something and Sharon basically ignored him and did whatever he wanted anyway. Bush has no influence on Sharon whatsoever.
3) Isreal is not a "real" democracy. It's a kind of democracy but with heavy theocratic overtones. It's a jewish state. A country which is Jewish (or muslim or christian) state can not claim to be a democracy. A democracy is for everyone regardless of their race, religion or color.
"Even if those mistakes were making such trade-offs as nuking a city as opposed to invading or letting the Soviet Union waltz in or not taking such things as the Sovient Union "mediate" seriously."
:P"
It's so easy to say no. So easy to register yourself as a conscientious objector. So easy to say "sorry general but I can't do that, why don't you let joe over there do it instead, he'd love to". So easy to choose a job rather then military service.
The fact is that the people who drop the bombs actually WANT to do it. They ask for the honor of killing other people. Ask anybody in the military and they will tell you how much they wish they were in Iraq instead of their base at home.
If there is god I am pretty sure he would punish the people who volunteered to kill more then anybody else.
As for not taking "mediate" seriously that's a more complex problem. By the time you need to wage war you have already made thousands of mistakes. War is a consequence of ineptitude.
"You've probably racked up enough sin to burn in hell for all times according to some religions.
There is little doubt of that. For most religions simply not believing their god exists is enough to rot in hell.
"Umm, lawyers are the ones who get laws passed: that's what they do."
Yes bozo. Have you ever heard of lobbying? Are you aware that there are powerful organizations in the country that shape and frequently write the laws that get passed?
"But you just made assumptions to try & belittle me, as most do to others here."
Yes I did. By "you" I meant the plural "you" as in you geeks. Organzied also did not refer to how neat your desk was, it refereed to your ability to combine your efforts to benefit yourselves as a group.
"From what I have seen, unions are to protect the workers' rights against their employers."
Yadda, Yadda, Yadda. Keep thinking that.
"I didn't call anything "shit" and I certainly don't "keep calling them" anything."
And yet you used that word. Of all the words and analogies in the world you chose that one. It says something.
"You missed the point completely."
No you missed the point. Enjoy your job until it gets shipped to cambodia.
"IOW, war is hell."
And it turns people into devils. No matter how lofty your perceptions of yourself you find out fast exactly how much evil lives inside of you when you pick up a gun and go to fight for god and country.
If there is a god, if there is a heaven, if there is a hell where do you think the people responsible for dropping those bombs will end up?
You said...
1) "and unlike the UN, it doesn't lack credibility."
2) "The UN didn't enforce their resolutions on Iraq, thuse leaving lucrative options for that regime. What happened?"
It seems like an odd jusposition of statements.
The UN is not credible and yet if they pass a resolution and don't enforce it then we have to do it for them.
Maybe not but there is no doubt that the AMA and the ABA are amongst the most powerful lobbying organizations in this country.
That's the power of organization. The geeks are shmucks. Until you organize you will remaim shmucks while the doctors get legislation passed and the bar approves judges.
You keep calling them shit from your mothers basement while they pick up the phone and get the president on the other end of the line.
Corporate america is not interested in quality IT work. It's all about cheaper, faster not better. Sales people come up with some harebrained scheme, some blind idiot VPs call the CIO and demands it next week, CIO tell the development directory that is has to happen for no money, the development directory tells the project manger to drop whatever they are doing and start this new initiative, the coders snicker at "the yet another project that will be abandoned once the sales people change their minds" and fiddle half heartedly for a couple of weeks. It's all a big Kabuki dance. If you ever worked in corporate america you'd know.
And yet your typical union employee gets paid more and has better benetifts then a non union employee in the same field.
Obviously unions do benefit their members.
What you say about "organizations" also applies to the govt and corporations too and yet you never hear any argue that we should get rid of govt or corporations do you? (well maybe from a few nutcases).
In the end unions are a form of self defense. it's in the interest of management to keep labor prices low. The management is organized and disciplined and works very hard to keep the labor pool paid as low as possible and with minimal benefit neccessary to keep the employees from quitting. In the face of this it's imperitive that the labor pool also get organized and diciplined to counteract the downward pressure from the mgmt. It's the only way to negotiate a happy peace. If you don't unionize then you surrender.
I'd buy your theories if there was an actual thing as free markets or a level playing field.
Other posters have pointed out some flaws in your logic mainly about how the other countries don't have the same environmental standards and how they subsidize healthcare and education but there are other factors to consider too.
1) subsidized education. American workers have to charge more because they paid for their own education.
2) Different labor laws. In india people can be fired willy nilly and female workers can get abused with no recourse. In the US corporations can get sued if a female employee get abused or if people are terminated without cause.
2a) Overtime laws, familiy leave act, etc.
3) Although companies are free to move work overseas the workers themselves are not free to follow the jobs. I can't go to canada and take advantage of free health care or cheaper drugs but my boss can go there and outsource my job.
Since there is not a level playing field not only is protectionsism NOT stupid it's required.
BTW whose people who used to pick from the dump and now are working in a sweatshop will be back at the dump when the company leaves for even cheaper labor in cambodia or africa. Depending on outsourcing from the US leads to a boom/bust cycle and the corporations chase ever cheaper labor all over the world. Nike or Walmart are not going to tolerate demands for higher wages and as soon as some poor country someplace offers $.10 less and hour they will pull out and move.
"That's because it wants them to leave and go back to the countries it defeated"
It sounds like you need a lesson in history. Those people can't go back to their counries because they are where they have always been. In fact many of them came from what is known now as Israel.
What you are talking about is ethnic cleansing. Sometimes when countries invade other lands it chooses not to make the indeginous population citizens but instead attempts to purge them somehow. Stalin, hitler, pol pot, idi amin are just a few examples of leaders who took over and attempted ethnic cleasnins. Most recently it was attempted in Bosnia, you might have some memory of that affair.
As far as I know nobody in the Israeli govt have come out and said the west bank and gaza should be purged of 3.5 million palestenians so this is big news to me. If you have a link to any official articulating this position please let me know, I would love to read it.
If ethnic cleansing is the official policy of israel then it will probably be very hard to achieve it. I honestly don't know how you would displace 3.5 million people without awful bloodshed and mayhem.
"In fact, many refer to illegal immigrants from Mexico as the US' "Palestinians"."
The situation is a bit different. The mexicans are in our country illegally but the israel invaded the west bank and gaza and subjugated it's people.
"It doesn't really matter if any country in the region has the military might to wipe Israel off the map. It matters that they (leaders & population) would still like to and that desire is what has been fueling much of the radical Islamic terrorism in the world since the 70s."
It does matter. Who cares if someone wants to destroy you if they can't do anything about it.
As for fueling terrorism I agree 100% the hatred against israel the primary reason al-quada was able to raise money, recurit and attack the US. Of course in all fairness israel is not very well liked in most of the world.
"The world can thank them for giving the Iraqi nuke program a huge setback years ago."
On this I don't agree. Israel owes its existance to the US, it receives six to 12 billion in aid every year from the US, the least it could do is bomb a country or two once in a while. As far as I am concerned we don't owe israel shit, they owe us their very own existance. They need to do a hell of lot more to pay us back for all that we do for them.