aside from being a dupe, this is nothing new as there have been dozens of others doing this stuff for quite a few years now. but thanks for the advert.
My apologies for my former tirade, a close friend of mine was mugged last night in full view of 4 witnesses (lovely world isnt it?) who did _absolutely nothing_, not even call for help or just yell, and thankfully my friend only has a slight knock on the head for his troubles.
I'm no "caped crusader" or any such sillyness but I must say I do enjoy the Tick.
Truth told my life is rather bland. Problems come my way more rarely than others it seems, but more 'intense', a bad word for it but I'm at a loss for a proper label.
I don't heap any abuse on anyone, at least none who haven't sent it my way first _and_ deserve a reply in kind. Most I simply ignore, its so much more infuriating to them anyway. I don't intimidate my neighbors, nor do they me. We all get along fine, tho we do not see each other as much as I'd like, life is too busy it seems, and I miss the sense of community of decades past.
I own no guns and consider them very dangerous in an urban environment (bullets go far and thru things), but if I moved to a more rural area I would like to own one or 2 for hunting. As far as self defense is concerned, that starts with learning to use your head, which many in this country sadly have not done. Weapons are useless without a capable mind, and often unnecessary with one. I don't run around patroling my neighborhood like you imagine, and I'm still puzzled about your definition of "investigating" as you keep using it. Saying hi and asking polite questions is pretty innocent. And one thing is certain, I NEVER instigate violence, doing so means you have already lost. Do everything in your power to avoid a fight if you can, and if you can't, do everything in your power to end it.
The war on drugs is an unbelievable joke and if we want to discuss it we are going to need an opponent, I would totally be on your side with A LOT of facts and statistics to back up any arguement you can pose.
Same goes for the tougher sentences issue, the sentencing in our justice system is beyond logical comprehension.
I get into too many arguments when I bring up the fact that we have a greater percentage of people in prison than any other country. I also think losing the right to vote for most felony convictions is assinine. Oh they are using some of those felons to process credit card orders by telephone so please be wary of doing that type of thing.
If anyone took a wrong turn into my alley, he should feel free to ask for directions, I'm not going to bite anyone. Sheesh. (Just for giggles go look up the web page that lists out the lawsuits and charges against Batman for just one of his little jaunts, brilliant work)
Sadly in this modern America, the common person IS being ruled by fear, and its all coming from the media and the government and the corporations. I wonder what something like Isreals manditory military service would do to everyones confidence and self relience around here.
Personally, I'm not too keen on fear, unless its the automatic kind thats meant to save your ass at that moment.
Canadian? Ah, have only seen a very small part of your country, very pretty, people very polite, unlike here I'm very sad to say. you guys actually STOP when people try to cross the street! I swear they accelerate around here. No one learns manners anymore. How is condo life? I too could care less for lawn care, tho I've found there are more annoying things about home ownership than that. But it does feel nice to have a place to call my own after so long. It is nice to see some older folks on here, especially since I'm getting to the point where I could be some Slashdotters' dad.
Thankfully property damage crime is all you have had to deal with, even tho you lose something intangible there as well.
You know what they say, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I have to always be very mindful now not to make any prejudicial judgements or rash assumptions because of some idiots actions toward me in the past. I like to th
The van is full of bleach and ammonia, both commonly available, with a small trigger charge to mix the 2, congradulations, you've got a chemical bomb on your doorstep.
I'm done with you, you are a coward and have not accepted any of the resposibilities of living in a "civilized" "society".
He who would not defend his neighbor is not welcome in my neighborhood.
I have been in my time employed to guard those who never notice that sh*t happens, I have suffered losses. My own neighbor was abducted and murdered, a case that went 12 yrs before being solved.
I have had my home broken into, my neighbors attacked, and and been assaulted on the street. ( I broke his arm took his gun and nearly lost my hand because I REALLY wanted to pull the trigger but the.38 was loaded with 40 cal ammo)
I have also prevented robberies, rapes, and other crimes.
I have no sympathy for anyone who is up to no good. Or presents that image.
Because of the actions of societies idiots, I am always armed (knives) and I am furthermore never hesitant to intercede if someone is threatening myself, my friends, nieghbors, kin, or random strangers who just happen to be nearby.
You sir are a coward. I have attempted to debate you but I am done with it.
Your kind is unwelcome in my life. He who would not put his safety on the line for me or his firends, family, neighborsas I would for him is unwelcome.
Go live in your gated community where you would never need ask simple questions of your fellow man.
When was the last time YOU stepped up to help you fellow man?
I am curious tho about many things. Do you own a home, how old are you, where do you live?
I admire your conviction, it is rare to find such steadfastness, even though I cannot accept your arguements.
I may vehemently disagree with you but franky, in all my days this has been thos most spirited debate I have found.
I wish you health and prospertity and I hope life does not deal unto you what it has me, because I do realize that my experiences have shaped my actions and perceptions.
I recind my labeling you a coward as I realise I do not know you and have not shared dangers with you. But I still would be wary of you if you were near me, as I feel I could not count on you to safeguard our little patch of Earth.
He was making use of the warm and fuzzy glow of the wifi radio waves washing over him to read Slashdot.
Lets say for sake of arguement he was reading the dead-tree version of Slashdot (I don't advise this, its still beta but its HUGE, there are even more dupes, and none of the spelling errors are corrected, damn you Rob) by the warm and fuzzy glow of the lunimous radiation washing over him from the porchlight. What now? Still using utilities not paid for by him to do the same thing, albiet torturously, and espensive since posting replies via USPS is pricey.
Yeah I think that died with that whole satellite tv decoder thing, DMCA an all that crap, stupid law. Can I get a foreign language radio program traslated legally or am I circumventing something?
Yes it is within your rights to refuse an unwarranted search to even a cop (although in practice this will still land you in a cell and your car seized after that bag of dope magically appeared there - cops, corruption and pissing contests are inseparable).
Sadly this is for the most part true, and I've been unlucky enough to witness behavior from law enforcement that is way out of line.
It is irrefutably within your rights to tell a self-appointed snoop to take a hike when he comes around "investigating" you being parked where he doesn't like.
I'll agree but I'd still like to know what asking "are you in need of help?" or something like that is such a horrible thing.
The self-contradictions in this statement are mind boggling. As to Godwin -- a very misguided and formed in kinder, gentler times, when it truly seemed that it "cannot happen here" -- "rule", I do not seem to recall it being passed into "law" by any country.
I worry about the state of things around the country more than you can imaging. Did you know the state police here are now using night vision goggles to catch people not wearing seatbelts? Nanny-state anyone? What used to be a secondary violation is now an excuse for a stop and potential search. Disgusting.
You are of course still missing the point. The very activity you engage into is vigilantism and if there is more then one of you, the terms are "mob rule" and "intimidation". The checkpoints and such appear when you manage to convince enough people that your way is the right one. So while it is indeed not the case, yet, I am merely ridiculing the direction of your march by pointing out its viable -- historically accurate -- destinations.
By your definitions peer pressure is mob rule.
Being vigilant is not being a vigilante. If there is a crack house down the block, as there happens to be, should I ignore it? Little kids are finding needles on the sidewalk for crying out loud. But back on topic to the article, was the WAP owner a vigilante by phoning in his concern to the police? His other options are ignore it or take matters into his own hands, neither seems advisable.
Ok, since I am not breaking through at all here, let me make it as simple as conceivably possible for you: try this simple experiment to test your utterly ridiculous premise: Since you claim it is your "right" then approach people on the street at random and ask them (prefferrably in demanding and authoritative tone) "What are you doing?! Where are you going?! Whats your name?!". Just make sure you have your medical insurance fully paid up before you do it.
See, that is where your assumption falls down, you never DEMAND like you have authority over someone. You simply ask simple questions, be friendly. "Hi how are you, I'm St0rmShad0w, whats your name?" "How's it going, where are you headed today?" Civil people have no problem conversing with civil people, and if they respond "none of your business" then fair enough. And medical insurance? Please, around here if I did what you said _exactly_, people would get freaked, scurry off and call the cops on me, because then I would be exhibiting suspicious behavior.
Ok. Another simple thought experiment: when does it become your self-appointed authority to "notify" real authorities that you "think" something is going on? When the car is parked in front of your house and your lawn is mere 10 feet long? The car is parked on the same public road but your house is 100 feet away due to the large size of your property? Or you are living on a farm and the said road and the car are good 1.5 mile away from your front porch? How about 20 miles?
It becomes you duty to notify authorities when you think something is going on, plain and simple. Crime doens't just happen in front of cops, someone has to let them know. The distance involved is irrelevant, given the actions of the occupant, whose behavior was suspicious. A person in a car 1.5 miles from my house
Where this falls apart is when cops, having found no warrants on you, start nosing around in your car looking for any excuse to charge you with something. Like a 14-year old half-smoked joint found under the seat of your car with 4 previous owners, etc.
This is were its just your fault for failing to defend your rights. If a cop wants to search your vehicle and you even briefly entertain saying yes you had better get him to write down what he is searching for, make him be specific, or say no to the search.
It is also at the request of most of the community members (who all happen to be white middle class bigots) that the cops set up their checkpoint operation, arresting anyone looking Mexican who tries to enter your paradise. It is by the request of good, law-obiding Germans that the Secret Service (a.k.a the Geheime Staatspolitzei, affectionately known as the Gestapo) established its well-respected policy of questioning any suspicious individuals loitering in otherwise clean and orderly German cities.
Way to Godwin. And your checkpoint BS still doesn't wash. If in the amazingly unlikely event something like that would get passed, you still have every right to challenge it in court. What sucks these days is the very poor choices being appointed to the bench and the fact that juries are largely made up of complete idiots.
Questioning your fellow citizen is your right, as it is his to question you, or refuse to answer your questions. Asking the authorities to intercede when you suspect there is something not quite right going on is also your right, they'll ask the same questions you do and if the don't like the answer they'll say move along, if its all good they'll let you know that too, and hang about close if they're wrong.
By the way my nieghborhood is pretty racially and economically diverse, the problems we get are from suburban teen white rapstar wannabees and their dads all coming into the city trying to score some crack or horse. Pathetic really. We videotape every car that stops at the local drug-house, sometimes their dumb enough to OD or do the deal right on camera. This is the third house in this area to get this treatment, the other two houses of crack-heads have already been driven out. I love when suburban dad tells me to f-off when I ask him not to block the street (single-lane).
Its the freedom of local residents to ask questions of others. Harassment is a pretty extreme definition for asking if you need help or what you are doing? Is someone who asks you the time harassing you? You were none of my business when you weren't sitting outside my house, now that you are I just might have questions. I am not guardian of the community, but I am most certainly guardian of me, so if you have a problem with it when your suspicious behavior is questioned, tough.
I agree that in the case of clearly marked property, with a fence (does not even have to be a barbed wire one) and if the dude was performing some illegal act which threatened your safety (other then just being there), such lawsuit would be frivolous and unjustified. Had he stepped (while taking a short cut through a wide open, unfenced, unmarked property) on a set bear-trap you had "forgotten" laying around in the grass on your front lawn, it would be a different story.
Agreed.
In short, having private property does not make it into a feudal fiefdom and it does not grant you a power to be an absolute monarch while presiding on it. You are still subject to common sense laws protecting other people while they are on your property.
Agreed but my assumption of liability for others on my property must grant me some authority otherwise I should not be liable for actions of theirs I cannot control.
And you can expect to end up with some missing teeth when you suprise one of the "strangers" with his girlfriend in the back of his windowless van.
Hmm, occupants concealed, number unknown, night I presume? I'll let the cops check it out.
Joking aside, your attitude is one step removed from demanding an "internal passport" of anyone crossing a neighbourhood "they do not belong in". A fine "crime prevention" tactics employed (to great effect may I add) by some countries past.
See there thats the thing, this has nothing to do with travelling, its the loitering and hanging about that raises suspicion. I already have to carry an ID to operate my vehicle so the passport thing is kindof moot realistically, not that I'm any fan of that sort of thing. And if anyone has some sort of issue with me asking why they are outside my house then I'd imagine they can find somewhere to sit where no one is interested in asking questions that they don't want to answer. Free country and all that.
An amazing amount of "crime" was also "prevented" by the Taliban Holy Warriors interrogating passers by, arresting those deemed suspicious, torturing them and then shooting anyone whose answers led them to believe he was a filthy, immoral, godless heretic. This policy has prevented, Allah willing, all sorts of villany such as pick-pocketing and drinking alcohol to nearly zero.
How about we keep this to US jurisdiction ok? Traffic stops catch a lot of outstanding warrants, you know, people wanted for crimes for which they will face trial.
I could not help but notice that beside this cheerful proclamation, you did not attempt to dispute the actual argument.
I was frankly hurting my head trying to figure out how requesting a policeman check out a suspicious vehicle logically turns into strip searches and checkpoints. It was MY REQUEST.
In the case of the article we are discussing, the owner of the AP had no legitimate leg to stand on and yet the laptop user was arrested, mainly due to the AP owner's insistence. A solid basis for civil legal action if I ever saw one (and yes the cops are also responsible for this mis-application of law).
Ah yes the meat of the matter. The owner of the AP is an idiot (census work???) and yes has no leg to stand on. But unfortunately for the SUV guy he is technically in a bad place with respect to the law on this, since it is so vague. My feeling is if its open its fair game as long as you don't breach any PC on the net. Chances are the cops in question have had exactly ZERO training in these circumstances and know nothing more than the FUD the evening news spreads about wireless wardriving evildoers. They probably even went so far as to ask someone higher up who was probably also clueless about the law on this. I also think that 90% of computer and network stuff is too dangerous (for legal reasons like this) for the general public to have just for asking. Isn't it nice that we live in a world where you can be arrested because someone else is an idiot?
Which even if he is not, does not grant him or you any right to attempt to get me arrested and prosecuted, since as I already discussed extensively in other posts, there is no physical distinction between an "open, public" and "open, by accident" hubs. All your neighbour is entitled to is to turn on encryption or turn off his hub. See, you are already crossing the line into malicious accusations/persecution by being a nosy busybody.
He has every right to contact the police about any concern he has, it is then the police's duty to determine the appropriate course of action.
And who really is the nosy busybody, me looking after the interests of me and my neighbors or the never-been-around-before guy snooping for open WAPs?
Your attitude is typical though of many people who are violently and pathologically territorial and consider not only their house, the lawn in front of it but 200 meters of public road in any direction "their Gawd given property, dammit!".
That's a bit overboard, but given that I can lose my house in a lawsuit brought by piss-poor parents whose idiot crotch-fruit hurt himself while trying to tresspass on land I bought and pay taxes on, is reason enough for "pathological territorialism".
That said, weirdos hanging out in their car where they are the "stranger" should expect to be asked a few questions.
The same thing you would say to your neighbour downtown after his kid was abducted from a playground with 100 passers-by every minute. Or an apartament building with a similiar scenario. You simply cannot treat everyone you do not like as a criminal just because there is a 1 in 10000 or even in 1 in 10 chance that he might be up to something.
An amazing amount of crime is prevented and wanted criminals caught simply because someone felt uncomfortable and had the police check someone out.
If you follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion, the cops should set up checkpoints at each entrance to your neighbourhood and strip search anyone trying to enter, arresting those who took a wrong turn late at night because they did not have a "valid" reason to be there. Because they might be coming to rape your neighbour's wife. Or something.
Please take a class on logic.
It is a sick, fearful, paranaoid, perpetual-victim mentality which leads to all sorts of evil and is slowly consuming the American society like a cancer. A malaise whose clear impression can be seen in USA's belligerent activities abroad.
Agreed, and mostly due to the perception by most of Americans that they have no responsibility to take care of themselves.
If you had called cops on me in this scenario and I had a legitimate reason to be there and the cops were (like in the case of the wireless AP article) stupid about it and arrested me, leading to malicious prosecution, you can bet your ass that I would be the new owner of that house of yours after my lawyers were done with you.
Protect and serve. I'm sorry, where exactly did I arrest and prosecute you? All I did was call and say "There's a man in a truck thats been lingering out on the street for quite some time, can you please have someone check it out?" And only then after I had asked you if you were ok, could use some help etc, if conditions were safe enough. Oh, and if you say you're using my neighbor's wireless, my next visit is his house to see if he's ok with that.
Obviously not someone familiar with crime, crime prevention and law enforcement.
And if your neighbor's kid was abducted or wife raped or any other heinous thing by the person you chose to ignore, even tho he wasn't a normal part of your neighborhood, what do you say to that neighbor when he finds out you saw this guy and did nothing?
Calling the cops does nothing to expose you to civil suits for this, thats just stupid.
There is another thing you are forgetting, the possibility that there might have been a great crime in the works (kidnapping maybe?), and to that end having the individual ID'd and questioned by the police, and the report noted, if he were acting suspiciously is appropriate.
Police also exist to investigate suspicious activity.
It is none of YOUR fucking business to be hanging out in front of my house late at night for no good reason. (Smile for the camera) I'm not prohibiting movement, in fact the opposite, I'm encouraging it, move alone. You are free to say no to me, you are NOT free to defy the order of the cop I'm going to call who will tell you the same thing, vagrant.
Your instincts are correct, you should follow them, they keep you alive, your first thought is call the law then do so. (isolated at night I'd probably note a description and plate and report it as a suspicious vehicle immediately, I learned after the fact that the Beltway Snipers had spent 2 nights no more than 1/2 mile from where I was living at the time, sleeping in their car) This guy had not one but TWO run-ins with SUV man where he was noticed. And he did what? Assumed it was census work?? What planet is he on??? And despite what popular media might lead you to believe, what you describe as a common occurance (random killings) is very rare, psycho snipers aside. I live in a city with a very high murder and violent crime rate and still the odds of it happening to you or me are very slim. Most murders are not random events.
I don't fault anyone for going to the law when needed, that's what they are there for, but this guy was a victim waiting to happen. His failure to act when he first noticed something odd could have led to burglary, the abduction of one of his neighbor's children or worse. I'm lucky to have some older, somewhat nosey neighbors, they keep the neighborhood safe.
People need to take action rather than ignore eveything that goes on around them, especially when it happens outside your house.
Anyone hanging around my place ould be confronted within 20 minute. I'll offer help if they need it but I'll darn sure they know that someone has seen them and made a note of their presence. They stay there longer than what seems appropriate without a good reason, they can explaing themselves to the local constabulary.
Why didn't this guy really confront the dude in the SUV?
First time be friendly and helpful. Hey how are you doing? do you need some help I noticed you've been out here a bit. No decent explaination, next time tell them to clear off, or you'll let the police know what his plates and description are and that he's been casing houses.
Everyday people never seem to take the initiative.
Sigh, this is so annoying, you are comparing this to physical trespass. It isn't.
YOUR wireless is painting the entire area, so essentially YOU'RE forcing your signal into someone elses personal space, if you don't want it used secure it, or quit complaining.
Satelite radio is painted everywhere, can you just go ahead and use it? No you can't, you need an approved device and a subscription to decode those signals. Why would anyone expect otherwise with wireless? Not encypted its free to anyone. Notice also that little FCC statement that says you have to accept any interference yadda yadda sinced it is an unlicensed device. So what if YOUR access point is overpowered and suddenly you find YOUR pc on another's network? What now?
Slashdot Mirror
Wired subscribers?
aside from being a dupe, this is nothing new as there have been dozens of others doing this stuff for quite a few years now. but thanks for the advert.
My apologies for my former tirade, a close friend of mine was mugged last night in full view of 4 witnesses (lovely world isnt it?) who did _absolutely nothing_, not even call for help or just yell, and thankfully my friend only has a slight knock on the head for his troubles.
I'm no "caped crusader" or any such sillyness but I must say I do enjoy the Tick.
Truth told my life is rather bland. Problems come my way more rarely than others it seems, but more 'intense', a bad word for it but I'm at a loss for a proper label.
I don't heap any abuse on anyone, at least none who haven't sent it my way first _and_ deserve a reply in kind. Most I simply ignore, its so much more infuriating to them anyway. I don't intimidate my neighbors, nor do they me. We all get along fine, tho we do not see each other as much as I'd like, life is too busy it seems, and I miss the sense of community of decades past.
I own no guns and consider them very dangerous in an urban environment (bullets go far and thru things), but if I moved to a more rural area I would like to own one or 2 for hunting. As far as self defense is concerned, that starts with learning to use your head, which many in this country sadly have not done.
Weapons are useless without a capable mind, and often unnecessary with one. I don't run around patroling my neighborhood like you imagine, and I'm still puzzled about your definition of "investigating" as you keep using it. Saying hi and asking polite questions is pretty innocent. And one thing is certain, I NEVER instigate violence, doing so means you have already lost. Do everything in your power to avoid a fight if you can, and if you can't, do everything in your power to end it.
The war on drugs is an unbelievable joke and if we want to discuss it we are going to need an opponent, I would totally be on your side with A LOT of facts and statistics to back up any arguement you can pose.
Same goes for the tougher sentences issue, the sentencing in our justice system is beyond logical comprehension.
I get into too many arguments when I bring up the fact that we have a greater percentage of people in prison than any other country. I also think losing the right to vote for most felony convictions is assinine. Oh they are using some of those felons to process credit card orders by telephone so please be wary of doing that type of thing.
If anyone took a wrong turn into my alley, he should feel free to ask for directions, I'm not going to bite anyone. Sheesh. (Just for giggles go look up the web page that lists out the lawsuits and charges against Batman for just one of his little jaunts, brilliant work)
Sadly in this modern America, the common person IS being ruled by fear, and its all coming from the media and the government and the corporations. I wonder what something like Isreals manditory military service would do to everyones confidence and self relience around here.
Personally, I'm not too keen on fear, unless its the automatic kind thats meant to save your ass at that moment.
Canadian? Ah, have only seen a very small part of your country, very pretty, people very polite, unlike here I'm very sad to say. you guys actually STOP when people try to cross the street! I swear they accelerate around here. No one learns manners anymore. How is condo life? I too could care less for lawn care, tho I've found there are more annoying things about home ownership than that. But it does feel nice to have a place to call my own after so long. It is nice to see some older folks on here, especially since I'm getting to the point where I could be some Slashdotters' dad.
Thankfully property damage crime is all you have had to deal with, even tho you lose something intangible there as well.
You know what they say, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I have to always be very mindful now not to make any prejudicial judgements or rash assumptions because of some idiots actions toward me in the past. I like to th
The van is full of bleach and ammonia, both commonly available, with a small trigger charge to mix the 2, congradulations, you've got a chemical bomb on your doorstep.
.38 was loaded with 40 cal ammo)
I'm done with you, you are a coward and have not accepted any of the resposibilities of living in a "civilized" "society".
He who would not defend his neighbor is not welcome in my neighborhood.
I have been in my time employed to guard those who never notice that sh*t happens, I have suffered losses. My own neighbor was abducted and murdered, a case that went 12 yrs before being solved.
I have had my home broken into, my neighbors attacked, and and been assaulted on the street. ( I broke his arm took his gun and nearly lost my hand because I REALLY wanted to pull the trigger but the
I have also prevented robberies, rapes, and other crimes.
I have no sympathy for anyone who is up to no good. Or presents that image.
Because of the actions of societies idiots, I am always armed (knives) and I am furthermore never hesitant to intercede if someone is threatening myself, my friends, nieghbors, kin, or random strangers who just happen to be nearby.
You sir are a coward. I have attempted to debate you but I am done with it.
Your kind is unwelcome in my life. He who would not put his safety on the line for me or his firends, family, neighborsas I would for him is unwelcome.
Go live in your gated community where you would never need ask simple questions of your fellow man.
When was the last time YOU stepped up to help you fellow man?
I am curious tho about many things. Do you own a home, how old are you, where do you live?
I admire your conviction, it is rare to find such steadfastness, even though I cannot accept your arguements.
I may vehemently disagree with you but franky, in all my days this has been thos most spirited debate I have found.
I wish you health and prospertity and I hope life does not deal unto you what it has me, because I do realize that my experiences have shaped my actions and perceptions.
I recind my labeling you a coward as I realise I do not know you and have not shared dangers with you. But I still would be wary of you if you were near me, as I feel I could not count on you to safeguard our little patch of Earth.
Interesting handle too, btw.
Criminal? He has not been convicted, be fair.
He was making use of the warm and fuzzy glow of the wifi radio waves washing over him to read Slashdot.
Lets say for sake of arguement he was reading the dead-tree version of Slashdot (I don't advise this, its still beta but its HUGE, there are even more dupes, and none of the spelling errors are corrected, damn you Rob) by the warm and fuzzy glow of the lunimous radiation washing over him from the porchlight. What now? Still using utilities not paid for by him to do the same thing, albiet torturously, and espensive since posting replies via USPS is pricey.
Damn you Rob.
Yeah I think that died with that whole satellite tv decoder thing, DMCA an all that crap, stupid law. Can I get a foreign language radio program traslated legally or am I circumventing something?
If I had a hat I'd tip it to you sir!
Yes it is within your rights to refuse an unwarranted search to even a cop (although in practice this will still land you in a cell and your car seized after that bag of dope magically appeared there - cops, corruption and pissing contests are inseparable).
Sadly this is for the most part true, and I've been unlucky enough to witness behavior from law enforcement that is way out of line.
It is irrefutably within your rights to tell a self-appointed snoop to take a hike when he comes around "investigating" you being parked where he doesn't like.
I'll agree but I'd still like to know what asking "are you in need of help?" or something like that is such a horrible thing.
The self-contradictions in this statement are mind boggling. As to Godwin -- a very misguided and formed in kinder, gentler times, when it truly seemed that it "cannot happen here" -- "rule", I do not seem to recall it being passed into "law" by any country.
I worry about the state of things around the country more than you can imaging. Did you know the state police here are now using night vision goggles to catch people not wearing seatbelts? Nanny-state anyone? What used to be a secondary violation is now an excuse for a stop and potential search. Disgusting.
You are of course still missing the point. The very activity you engage into is vigilantism and if there is more then one of you, the terms are "mob rule" and "intimidation". The checkpoints and such appear when you manage to convince enough people that your way is the right one. So while it is indeed not the case, yet, I am merely ridiculing the direction of your march by pointing out its viable -- historically accurate -- destinations.
By your definitions peer pressure is mob rule.
Being vigilant is not being a vigilante. If there is a crack house down the block, as there happens to be, should I ignore it? Little kids are finding needles on the sidewalk for crying out loud. But back on topic to the article, was the WAP owner a vigilante by phoning in his concern to the police? His other options are ignore it or take matters into his own hands, neither seems advisable.
Ok, since I am not breaking through at all here, let me make it as simple as conceivably possible for you: try this simple experiment to test your utterly ridiculous premise: Since you claim it is your "right" then approach people on the street at random and ask them (prefferrably in demanding and authoritative tone) "What are you doing?! Where are you going?! Whats your name?!". Just make sure you have your medical insurance fully paid up before you do it.
See, that is where your assumption falls down, you never DEMAND like you have authority over someone. You simply ask simple questions, be friendly. "Hi how are you, I'm St0rmShad0w, whats your name?" "How's it going, where are you headed today?" Civil people have no problem conversing with civil people, and if they respond "none of your business" then fair enough. And medical insurance? Please, around here if I did what you said _exactly_, people would get freaked, scurry off and call the cops on me, because then I would be exhibiting suspicious behavior.
Ok. Another simple thought experiment: when does it become your self-appointed authority to "notify" real authorities that you "think" something is going on? When the car is parked in front of your house and your lawn is mere 10 feet long? The car is parked on the same public road but your house is 100 feet away due to the large size of your property? Or you are living on a farm and the said road and the car are good 1.5 mile away from your front porch? How about 20 miles?
It becomes you duty to notify authorities when you think something is going on, plain and simple. Crime doens't just happen in front of cops, someone has to let them know. The distance involved is irrelevant, given the actions of the occupant, whose behavior was suspicious. A person in a car 1.5 miles from my house
Where this falls apart is when cops, having found no warrants on you, start nosing around in your car looking for any excuse to charge you with something. Like a 14-year old half-smoked joint found under the seat of your car with 4 previous owners, etc.
This is were its just your fault for failing to defend your rights. If a cop wants to search your vehicle and you even briefly entertain saying yes you had better get him to write down what he is searching for, make him be specific, or say no to the search.
It is also at the request of most of the community members (who all happen to be white middle class bigots) that the cops set up their checkpoint operation, arresting anyone looking Mexican who tries to enter your paradise. It is by the request of good, law-obiding Germans that the Secret Service (a.k.a the Geheime Staatspolitzei, affectionately known as the Gestapo) established its well-respected policy of questioning any suspicious individuals loitering in otherwise clean and orderly German cities.
Way to Godwin. And your checkpoint BS still doesn't wash. If in the amazingly unlikely event something like that would get passed, you still have every right to challenge it in court. What sucks these days is the very poor choices being appointed to the bench and the fact that juries are largely made up of complete idiots.
Questioning your fellow citizen is your right, as it is his to question you, or refuse to answer your questions. Asking the authorities to intercede when you suspect there is something not quite right going on is also your right, they'll ask the same questions you do and if the don't like the answer they'll say move along, if its all good they'll let you know that too, and hang about close if they're wrong.
By the way my nieghborhood is pretty racially and economically diverse, the problems we get are from suburban teen white rapstar wannabees and their dads all coming into the city trying to score some crack or horse. Pathetic really. We videotape every car that stops at the local drug-house, sometimes their dumb enough to OD or do the deal right on camera. This is the third house in this area to get this treatment, the other two houses of crack-heads have already been driven out. I love when suburban dad tells me to f-off when I ask him not to block the street (single-lane).
Its the freedom of local residents to ask questions of others. Harassment is a pretty extreme definition for asking if you need help or what you are doing? Is someone who asks you the time harassing you? You were none of my business when you weren't sitting outside my house, now that you are I just might have questions. I am not guardian of the community, but I am most certainly guardian of me, so if you have a problem with it when your suspicious behavior is questioned, tough.
I agree that in the case of clearly marked property, with a fence (does not even have to be a barbed wire one) and if the dude was performing some illegal act which threatened your safety (other then just being there), such lawsuit would be frivolous and unjustified. Had he stepped (while taking a short cut through a wide open, unfenced, unmarked property) on a set bear-trap you had "forgotten" laying around in the grass on your front lawn, it would be a different story.
Agreed.
In short, having private property does not make it into a feudal fiefdom and it does not grant you a power to be an absolute monarch while presiding on it. You are still subject to common sense laws protecting other people while they are on your property.
Agreed but my assumption of liability for others on my property must grant me some authority otherwise I should not be liable for actions of theirs I cannot control.
And you can expect to end up with some missing teeth when you suprise one of the "strangers" with his girlfriend in the back of his windowless van.
Hmm, occupants concealed, number unknown, night I presume? I'll let the cops check it out.
Joking aside, your attitude is one step removed from demanding an "internal passport" of anyone crossing a neighbourhood "they do not belong in". A fine "crime prevention" tactics employed (to great effect may I add) by some countries past.
See there thats the thing, this has nothing to do with travelling, its the loitering and hanging about that raises suspicion. I already have to carry an ID to operate my vehicle so the passport thing is kindof moot realistically, not that I'm any fan of that sort of thing. And if anyone has some sort of issue with me asking why they are outside my house then I'd imagine they can find somewhere to sit where no one is interested in asking questions that they don't want to answer. Free country and all that.
An amazing amount of "crime" was also "prevented" by the Taliban Holy Warriors interrogating passers by, arresting those deemed suspicious, torturing them and then shooting anyone whose answers led them to believe he was a filthy, immoral, godless heretic. This policy has prevented, Allah willing, all sorts of villany such as pick-pocketing and drinking alcohol to nearly zero.
How about we keep this to US jurisdiction ok? Traffic stops catch a lot of outstanding warrants, you know, people wanted for crimes for which they will face trial.
I could not help but notice that beside this cheerful proclamation, you did not attempt to dispute the actual argument.
I was frankly hurting my head trying to figure out how requesting a policeman check out a suspicious vehicle logically turns into strip searches and checkpoints. It was MY REQUEST.
In the case of the article we are discussing, the owner of the AP had no legitimate leg to stand on and yet the laptop user was arrested, mainly due to the AP owner's insistence. A solid basis for civil legal action if I ever saw one (and yes the cops are also responsible for this mis-application of law).
Ah yes the meat of the matter. The owner of the AP is an idiot (census work???) and yes has no leg to stand on. But unfortunately for the SUV guy he is technically in a bad place with respect to the law on this, since it is so vague. My feeling is if its open its fair game as long as you don't breach any PC on the net. Chances are the cops in question have had exactly ZERO training in these circumstances and know nothing more than the FUD the evening news spreads about wireless wardriving evildoers. They probably even went so far as to ask someone higher up who was probably also clueless about the law on this. I also think that 90% of computer and network stuff is too dangerous (for legal reasons like this) for the general public to have just for asking. Isn't it nice that we live in a world where you can be arrested because someone else is an idiot?
Which even if he is not, does not grant him or you any right to attempt to get me arrested and prosecuted, since as I already discussed extensively in other posts, there is no physical distinction between an "open, public" and "open, by accident" hubs. All your neighbour is entitled to is to turn on encryption or turn off his hub. See, you are already crossing the line into malicious accusations/persecution by being a nosy busybody.
He has every right to contact the police about any concern he has, it is then the police's duty to determine the appropriate course of action.
And who really is the nosy busybody, me looking after the interests of me and my neighbors or the never-been-around-before guy snooping for open WAPs?
Your attitude is typical though of many people who are violently and pathologically territorial and consider not only their house, the lawn in front of it but 200 meters of public road in any direction "their Gawd given property, dammit!".
That's a bit overboard, but given that I can lose my house in a lawsuit brought by piss-poor parents whose idiot crotch-fruit hurt himself while trying to tresspass on land I bought and pay taxes on, is reason enough for "pathological territorialism".
That said, weirdos hanging out in their car where they are the "stranger" should expect to be asked a few questions.
The same thing you would say to your neighbour downtown after his kid was abducted from a playground with 100 passers-by every minute. Or an apartament building with a similiar scenario. You simply cannot treat everyone you do not like as a criminal just because there is a 1 in 10000 or even in 1 in 10 chance that he might be up to something.
An amazing amount of crime is prevented and wanted criminals caught simply because someone felt uncomfortable and had the police check someone out.
If you follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion, the cops should set up checkpoints at each entrance to your neighbourhood and strip search anyone trying to enter, arresting those who took a wrong turn late at night because they did not have a "valid" reason to be there. Because they might be coming to rape your neighbour's wife. Or something.
Please take a class on logic.
It is a sick, fearful, paranaoid, perpetual-victim mentality which leads to all sorts of evil and is slowly consuming the American society like a cancer. A malaise whose clear impression can be seen in USA's belligerent activities abroad.
Agreed, and mostly due to the perception by most of Americans that they have no responsibility to take care of themselves.
If you had called cops on me in this scenario and I had a legitimate reason to be there and the cops were (like in the case of the wireless AP article) stupid about it and arrested me, leading to malicious prosecution, you can bet your ass that I would be the new owner of that house of yours after my lawyers were done with you.
Protect and serve. I'm sorry, where exactly did I arrest and prosecute you? All I did was call and say "There's a man in a truck thats been lingering out on the street for quite some time, can you please have someone check it out?" And only then after I had asked you if you were ok, could use some help etc, if conditions were safe enough. Oh, and if you say you're using my neighbor's wireless, my next visit is his house to see if he's ok with that.
And I never have been able to understand you Brits and your tele tax.
What's wrong with asking people questions and finding out who they are if they aren't familiar to you?
Must be nice living in your world, let me know if you ever get out of your basement and actually interact with another person in reality.
Obviously not someone familiar with crime, crime prevention and law enforcement.
And if your neighbor's kid was abducted or wife raped or any other heinous thing by the person you chose to ignore, even tho he wasn't a normal part of your neighborhood, what do you say to that neighbor when he finds out you saw this guy and did nothing?
Calling the cops does nothing to expose you to civil suits for this, thats just stupid.
There is another thing you are forgetting, the possibility that there might have been a great crime in the works (kidnapping maybe?), and to that end having the individual ID'd and questioned by the police, and the report noted, if he were acting suspiciously is appropriate.
So you don't mind if I case your house? Grow up.
Police also exist to investigate suspicious activity.
It is none of YOUR fucking business to be hanging out in front of my house late at night for no good reason. (Smile for the camera) I'm not prohibiting movement, in fact the opposite, I'm encouraging it, move alone. You are free to say no to me, you are NOT free to defy the order of the cop I'm going to call who will tell you the same thing, vagrant.
I think he failed across the board when he thought some guy with a laptop hanging around outside his house at night was a census worker.
His neighbors (especially the ones with kids) need to kick his ass.
Your instincts are correct, you should follow them, they keep you alive, your first thought is call the law then do so. (isolated at night I'd probably note a description and plate and report it as a suspicious vehicle immediately, I learned after the fact that the Beltway Snipers had spent 2 nights no more than 1/2 mile from where I was living at the time, sleeping in their car) This guy had not one but TWO run-ins with SUV man where he was noticed. And he did what? Assumed it was census work?? What planet is he on??? And despite what popular media might lead you to believe, what you describe as a common occurance (random killings) is very rare, psycho snipers aside. I live in a city with a very high murder and violent crime rate and still the odds of it happening to you or me are very slim. Most murders are not random events.
I don't fault anyone for going to the law when needed, that's what they are there for, but this guy was a victim waiting to happen. His failure to act when he first noticed something odd could have led to burglary, the abduction of one of his neighbor's children or worse. I'm lucky to have some older, somewhat nosey neighbors, they keep the neighborhood safe.
People need to take action rather than ignore eveything that goes on around them, especially when it happens outside your house.
Anyone hanging around my place ould be confronted within 20 minute. I'll offer help if they need it but I'll darn sure they know that someone has seen them and made a note of their presence. They stay there longer than what seems appropriate without a good reason, they can explaing themselves to the local constabulary.
Being bathed in other peoples' radiation just seems to be a pet peeve of mine, I thank you for your kind words.
Why didn't this guy really confront the dude in the SUV?
First time be friendly and helpful. Hey how are you doing? do you need some help I noticed you've been out here a bit. No decent explaination, next time tell them to clear off, or you'll let the police know what his plates and description are and that he's been casing houses.
Everyday people never seem to take the initiative.
Sigh, this is so annoying, you are comparing this to physical trespass. It isn't.
YOUR wireless is painting the entire area, so essentially YOU'RE forcing your signal into someone elses personal space, if you don't want it used secure it, or quit complaining.
Satelite radio is painted everywhere, can you just go ahead and use it? No you can't, you need an approved device and a subscription to decode those signals. Why would anyone expect otherwise with wireless? Not encypted its free to anyone. Notice also that little FCC statement that says you have to accept any interference yadda yadda sinced it is an unlicensed device. So what if YOUR access point is overpowered and suddenly you find YOUR pc on another's network? What now?