No, no no, there was a running gag like that on Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman too. Dody Goodman in her thick southern accent would say things like "But wha would anyone want to be a Hoe-Moe" and pronounce it like that. It was hilarious. Utterly took the piss out of people like Huckster78 or whatever his name is.
It's either that or crack. Meth maybe? Maybe he's one of those RWNJs whose pastor told him that Baby Jesus wants young white men to hate and denigrate anyone not like themselves. "Homos"? Really? I mean that term is so dated it was even funny when Mary Hartman Mary Hartman was on the air.
“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.” -- Mark Twain
Fourier transforms are taught to all engineering undergraduates in either Freshman or Sophomore year. Except CS majors, apparently. Who proudly call themselves software "engineers" with little or no engineering background what so ever. SMH.
It's just hilarious many commenters have revealed the very bias and bigotry that caused this case in the first place.
And yet, when the subject herself joins the discussion, nobody even bothers to ask her any questions, but rather just carry on in blind sexist and ageist speculation.
It's clear from the complete ignorance of how much programming and systems work her thesis actually required leading them to assume that it's "not relevant" -- from the comments, I honestly doubt anyone's bothered to actually read her thesis or indeed any of her publications.
This is why I hope this case actually goes to trial. Unless people are actually forced to face the facts in a court of law, no facts will be examined, and people will continue to simply believe their own stereotypes.
It's not very surprising that people in this profession do not appear to be terribly interested in facts or evidence, but rather seem to prefer wallowing in their own self-justifying speculation, bigotry and bias. It's the reason the demographic in the profession is so skewed in the first place. And, hence, the cause of action.
If young white men "feel uncomfortable" with people unlike themselves who find bugs in their code, it doesn't exactly help them to start spouting the very stereotypes that they think justifies their discomfort.
When you're in a hole, guys -- oh, here's your shovel. Keep digging. We'll just wait till your down deep enough to bury you.
Yah I've seen that too. It's amazing the lengths people will go to to claim a woman's training, education or experience is "not relevant" even when its highly technical, at an advanced level (MS, PhD) and involved Actual Programming the entire way through. They're always trying to characterize 'girls' (at 50? really?) as "new to this" -- but when you see guys that are journalism or linguistics majors who got into programming, it's just evidence of his "genius" that he could pick up programming. WTF?
The worst part is then being 'mansplained' some basic principal or an exasperated 'oh don't you know ANYTHING' by one of these jackasses half your age with no formal scientific or technical training what so ever -- when all you asked for was the URL and password to a database you're supposed to be working on.
ORLY? Maybe she can spot a bigot like you at 50 paces, tolerates them as long as she has to, finishes a significant project, and with her qualifications, always has another recruiter calling, and always has another job lined up. For more money, more responsibility, more modern technology to work with, better coding standards, and perhaps...just maybe: seemingly less bigoted Neanderthals like yourself to work with. Unlikely, but it's worth a shot, right?
Have you ever considered the possibility that she may have run across so many people like you in her career that she just doesn't give a damn about "good social fit" any more -- knows that people like you are everywhere -- and just gets on with the job? It's called "Professionalism."
She stuck with it for 40 years before finally saying "Basta!" to do something fun and interesting with her time left on earth -- buying a farm to herd and milk sheep, make cheese and yogurt.
Wow! U Jelly, man? Bet you are! I sure am!
And excuse me, "anyone who graduated college in 1982"? Are you trying to prove the ageist corollary to Lewis's Law yet again? Unbelievable. How many different kinds of people were there in your graduating class? Or...were they all the same?
Unbelievable, yet, all too believable. It's why there are lawsuits like this in the first place.
Wait, what's that I hear? You're being paged! "8th Century BC to Mr. FlyHelicopters! 8th Century BC to Mr. FlyHelicopters!" The Neolithic is calling. They want their mentality back.
It's just baffling that anyone would denigrate someone for being a "social justice warrior" much less claim that this is somehow a bar to employability.
After all, where would you draw the line? Does someone who volunteers at a homeless shelter or donates to a food bank get labelled an "SJW"? How about attending a #BlackLivesMatter protest, as a person of color? What about an Hispanic worker who has voiced support for the Coalition of Immokalee Workers? Would he or she be a "social justice warrior, that would be plenty of reason not to hire"?
How about a woman who volunteers for a rape crisis hotline, or works weekends at a battered women's shelter? It would be pretty disturbing if trying to help battered women were considered a bar to employment, after the/. community expressed such bathetic sympathy for Hans Reiser after he murdered his wife not to mention some of the things said in response to the whole #gamergate controversy.
If the/. community tolerates outright femicide while denigrating any feminist as "social justice warrior, that would be plenty of reason not to hire" and this is at all a reflection of the attitudes of the software development community at large, it's then no wonder that there are so few senior women software developers -- and that the few who survive a few decades are dismissed as "old women" and "ugly" and judged solely on how "good a social fit" they are rather than the quality of their code.
I don't doubt Cheryl's story for a minute -- though I personally think it's more a combination of both unlawful gender discrimination and age discrimination.
It seems to me that anyone who challenges white young male supremacy could be considered "social justice warrior, that is plenty reason not to hire", by their very existence as a non-white non-young non-male person who happens to be more qualified than most of the young white men in the room.
Oh it's fine with yall if these "others" don't get "uppity" and "know their place", from what I gather here, and she'd better be "pretty" and not "old".
Anyway, there's plenty of proof of Lewis's Law to go around here.
So long, and thanks for all the useful information.
Wow. Hans Reiser had such an "obnoxious personality" that he murdered his wife , the mother of his children, and then tried to get out of supporting them out of his rather sizable fortune.
If Google has rigged the game such that their hiring processes cannot be evaluated for fairness, they might find their hiring processes coming under far greater supervision.
Actually, teaching children to get along with each other is an important part of socialization. It usually happens in Kindergarten. If some group of children who all look alike and are led by an incalcitrant bully "don't like Billy" and continue to taunt and isolate him, then the skilled Kindergarten teacher will find a way of isolating the bully.
Some techniques include monitoring the bully's behavior, isolating the bully by catching him out in some infraction and sending him home for a few days, discussing the bully's behavior with his parents, talking to the other kids who "don't like Billy" about how they might feel if they were Billy, etc. It's a matter of helping the children develop a sense of empathy, rather than just playing "follow the leader" when the leader is causing harm.
The fact that you think that bullies ought to be allowed to get away with their abuse and the fact that you literally have no idea how bullying and ganging up on a target can be curbed in a classroom setting is extremely revealing.
No wonder you think that excluded groups "SHOULD" continue to be excluded in the supposedly grown-up world of work.
That's a valid point, but getting a software position at Google pits her against people who have PhDs in Computer Science. Google isn't a little startup with a low bar for entry. It's one of the most sought after employers right now, akin to Bell Labs or Xerox in their heyday. She probably learned how to program, but how many publications has she made in CS related topics? Having a CS degree at the PhD level is not something you can ignore as much as the bachelor level.
Actually her first publication was in a USENIX publication on the use of RPC in the implementation of remote equation solvers in a client-server model.
Author: C.A. Stewart Title: Numerical Applications Interprocess Communication Protocol: RPCODE: RPC server to solve ODEs Pages: 37-42 Publisher: USENIX Proceedings: UNIX and Supercomputers Workshop Proceedings Date: September 26-27, 1988 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Institution: Open Systems Architects, Inc.
Last I checked, all of her other publications were in computational fluid mechanics -- you know, where you write code to model fluid flow, usually using finite difference, finite element or spectral techniques.
How different is a PhD in computational physics from a CS PhD? In many cases, The PhD in Computational Physics has far more actual coding experience than the CS PhD.
The PhD in computational physics is guaranteed to have written a great deal of code and building systems grunty enough to run them on -- in Cheryl Stewart (nee Fillekes) case taking advantage of remote supercomputers using SUN RPC and XDR IEEE data encoding not to mention developing mixed-language code by cross-compiling C and Fortran object modules at a time when 'teh internets' did not even exist save a few interconnected ARPAnet and NSFnet nodes (which she also worked on the gateway protocols for), while the CS PhD might have spent their entire academic career on purely theoretical subjects, like lambda calculus or formal logic, and may never written a line of code.
"all cars use different firmware with different security holes and different CPUs.
But with enough research you could probably crack a specific vulnerable car model."
I keep hearing about this "gap in her resume" of 20 years in this thread, but I don't see one. If I count right, programming from the age of 15 to 55 with no gaps in employment is 40 years of experience, not "as much experience as a 25 year old."
Are we talking about the same person?
Or are you imagining a stereotype of a person of the same age and gender, and imagining "problems with her resume" based on your stereotype?
It's actually sort of interesting the imaginary non-fact-based direction this thread goes after this, because it pretty much demonstrates how age and gender (and probably race and religion and nationality) biases actually work:
someone shows up with a different {age, gender, race, religion, nationality} than you're used to seeing in the job, yet is well qualified for the job
make assumptions on the basis of crude stereotypes of some hypothetical person (not the person being interviewed) of that {age, gender, race, religion, nationality}
don't even read their resume
raise doubtful questions about the candidate based on commonly-held stereotypes, rather than the evidence before you
rinse and repeat for every candidate with a different {age, gender, race, religion, nationality} than you're used to seeing in the job
And whaddaya know! After a few years of this, you have a monoculture of lily white frat boys doing that job! Congratulations!
But there is no gap in her resume at all. Also, I see no evidence of "being a mommy" associated with a woman anywhere.
Why are we even talking about this non-existent "20 year gap in experience"?
Face it, young men expect a woman as old as their mother to BE their mother, and if they're not getting their poor little egos stroked constantly and their fragile delicate little emotions molly-coddled constantly by someone who "should" be as nice to them as their mommy, they'll bitch and complain about her "people skills" not to mention the more actionable comments about her being "ugly" and "old" and "fat" and "overeducated" and "whacko" (clearly there are some armchair psychiatrists here) and "not really qualified because she took 20 years off to make bay bees" even if she's childless and hasn't had a vacation in 40 years.
We've already seen ALL of those comments right here, so you can't say it doesn't happen.
Funny, some pretty outrageously sexist and ageist behavior of young men is often excused on the basis that, well, they're programmers, so they "lack people skills." That makes it OK then, right?
I wonder why "lack of people skills" a reason to excuse the unlawful behavior of young men who make programming environments so toxic to anyone unlike themselves, but appears to be a perfectly valid excuse to unlawfully not even hire an older highly qualified woman?
Back in the late 70's early 80's if you needed software for a research project, you had to write it yourself -- particularly a modeling and simulation project in computational geophysical fluid dynamics or computational theoretical astrophysics. And Unix -- namely BSD Unix -- on a PDP 11 or VAX 11/750 was the most cost effective way for most departments to get a powerful enough platform to develop and run such codes on.
In fact, most of the sys admins at the time -- and systems developers -- were graduate students and postdocs in the physical sciences at elite institutions. In fact, a lot of the application stack built on top of TCP/IP not to mention the systems utilities were developed by such grad students.
She did her PhD at the University of Chicago. Here, let me google that for you: http://geosci.uchicago.edu/fac... I wonder what they're doing with all those computational resources? Hmmm? And back in the day, who built them? Grad students, mostly.
It's a little rich for some Johnny-come-lately lily-white frat boy Java programmer to reject someone who was probably directly involved with the foundations of Unix network development and the implementation of codes over ARPAnet and NSFnet which eventually became -- gasp! the internet.
And, interestingly, some of the outrageously sexist behavior of the very same frat boys is excused on the basis that, well, they're programmers, so they "lack people skills."
Why is "lack of people skills" a reason to excuse the unlawful behavior of a young man, but an excuse to unlawfully not even hire an older woman?
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No, no no, there was a running gag like that on Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman too. Dody Goodman in her thick southern accent would say things like "But wha would anyone want to be a Hoe-Moe" and pronounce it like that. It was hilarious. Utterly took the piss out of people like Huckster78 or whatever his name is.
It's either that or crack. Meth maybe? Maybe he's one of those RWNJs whose pastor told him that Baby Jesus wants young white men to hate and denigrate anyone not like themselves. "Homos"? Really? I mean that term is so dated it was even funny when Mary Hartman Mary Hartman was on the air.
And the emotionality and defensiveness! I wonder if he's ever been sent to anger management.
Wow, name-calling! Such an impressive social skill! I wonder what he calls African Americans.
“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.” -- Mark Twain
Fourier transforms are taught to all engineering undergraduates in either Freshman or Sophomore year. Except CS majors, apparently. Who proudly call themselves software "engineers" with little or no engineering background what so ever. SMH.
It's just hilarious many commenters have revealed the very bias and bigotry that caused this case in the first place.
And yet, when the subject herself joins the discussion, nobody even bothers to ask her any questions, but rather just carry on in blind sexist and ageist speculation.
It's clear from the complete ignorance of how much programming and systems work her thesis actually required leading them to assume that it's "not relevant" -- from the comments, I honestly doubt anyone's bothered to actually read her thesis or indeed any of her publications.
This is why I hope this case actually goes to trial. Unless people are actually forced to face the facts in a court of law, no facts will be examined, and people will continue to simply believe their own stereotypes.
It's not very surprising that people in this profession do not appear to be terribly interested in facts or evidence, but rather seem to prefer wallowing in their own self-justifying speculation, bigotry and bias. It's the reason the demographic in the profession is so skewed in the first place. And, hence, the cause of action.
If young white men "feel uncomfortable" with people unlike themselves who find bugs in their code, it doesn't exactly help them to start spouting the very stereotypes that they think justifies their discomfort.
When you're in a hole, guys -- oh, here's your shovel. Keep digging. We'll just wait till your down deep enough to bury you.
Or she. You're so bigoted you just assume the employer is always a "He." Not in my company it isn't. Good luck getting a job with us. Never.
Yah I've seen that too. It's amazing the lengths people will go to to claim a woman's training, education or experience is "not relevant" even when its highly technical, at an advanced level (MS, PhD) and involved Actual Programming the entire way through. They're always trying to characterize 'girls' (at 50? really?) as "new to this" -- but when you see guys that are journalism or linguistics majors who got into programming, it's just evidence of his "genius" that he could pick up programming. WTF?
The worst part is then being 'mansplained' some basic principal or an exasperated 'oh don't you know ANYTHING' by one of these jackasses half your age with no formal scientific or technical training what so ever -- when all you asked for was the URL and password to a database you're supposed to be working on.
"So she moves around a lot."
ORLY? Maybe she can spot a bigot like you at 50 paces, tolerates them as long as she has to, finishes a significant project, and with her qualifications, always has another recruiter calling, and always has another job lined up. For more money, more responsibility, more modern technology to work with, better coding standards, and perhaps...just maybe: seemingly less bigoted Neanderthals like yourself to work with. Unlikely, but it's worth a shot, right?
Have you ever considered the possibility that she may have run across so many people like you in her career that she just doesn't give a damn about "good social fit" any more -- knows that people like you are everywhere -- and just gets on with the job? It's called "Professionalism."
She stuck with it for 40 years before finally saying "Basta!" to do something fun and interesting with her time left on earth -- buying a farm to herd and milk sheep, make cheese and yogurt.
Wow! U Jelly, man? Bet you are! I sure am!
And excuse me, "anyone who graduated college in 1982"? Are you trying to prove the ageist corollary to Lewis's Law yet again? Unbelievable. How many different kinds of people were there in your graduating class? Or...were they all the same?
Unbelievable, yet, all too believable. It's why there are lawsuits like this in the first place.
Wait, what's that I hear? You're being paged! "8th Century BC to Mr. FlyHelicopters! 8th Century BC to Mr. FlyHelicopters!" The Neolithic is calling. They want their mentality back.
It's just baffling that anyone would denigrate someone for being a "social justice warrior" much less claim that this is somehow a bar to employability.
After all, where would you draw the line? Does someone who volunteers at a homeless shelter or donates to a food bank get labelled an "SJW"? How about attending a #BlackLivesMatter protest, as a person of color? What about an Hispanic worker who has voiced support for the Coalition of Immokalee Workers? Would he or she be a "social justice warrior, that would be plenty of reason not to hire"?
How about a woman who volunteers for a rape crisis hotline, or works weekends at a battered women's shelter? It would be pretty disturbing if trying to help battered women were considered a bar to employment, after the /. community expressed such bathetic sympathy for Hans Reiser after he murdered his wife not to mention some of the things said in response to the whole #gamergate controversy.
If the /. community tolerates outright femicide while denigrating any feminist as "social justice warrior, that would be plenty of reason not to hire" and this is at all a reflection of the attitudes of the software development community at large, it's then no wonder that there are so few senior women software developers -- and that the few who survive a few decades are dismissed as "old women" and "ugly" and judged solely on how "good a social fit" they are rather than the quality of their code.
I don't doubt Cheryl's story for a minute -- though I personally think it's more a combination of both unlawful gender discrimination and age discrimination.
It seems to me that anyone who challenges white young male supremacy could be considered "social justice warrior, that is plenty reason not to hire", by their very existence as a non-white non-young non-male person who happens to be more qualified than most of the young white men in the room.
Oh it's fine with yall if these "others" don't get "uppity" and "know their place", from what I gather here, and she'd better be "pretty" and not "old".
Anyway, there's plenty of proof of Lewis's Law to go around here.
So long, and thanks for all the useful information.
Wow. Hans Reiser had such an "obnoxious personality" that he murdered his wife , the mother of his children, and then tried to get out of supporting them out of his rather sizable fortune.
And yet, the /. community was soooo supportive of him when he was first arrested http://slashdot.org/story/06/10/11/0142216/hans-reiser-arrested-on-suspicion-of-murder
Double standards much?
If Google has rigged the game such that their hiring processes cannot be evaluated for fairness, they might find their hiring processes coming under far greater supervision.
By court order.
Pass the popcorn.
Oh, and "you use the right words"? Like calling people "idiot"? Fascinating approach. I'm sure you're quite effective.
Actually, teaching children to get along with each other is an important part of socialization. It usually happens in Kindergarten. If some group of children who all look alike and are led by an incalcitrant bully "don't like Billy" and continue to taunt and isolate him, then the skilled Kindergarten teacher will find a way of isolating the bully.
Some techniques include monitoring the bully's behavior, isolating the bully by catching him out in some infraction and sending him home for a few days, discussing the bully's behavior with his parents, talking to the other kids who "don't like Billy" about how they might feel if they were Billy, etc. It's a matter of helping the children develop a sense of empathy, rather than just playing "follow the leader" when the leader is causing harm.
The fact that you think that bullies ought to be allowed to get away with their abuse and the fact that you literally have no idea how bullying and ganging up on a target can be curbed in a classroom setting is extremely revealing.
No wonder you think that excluded groups "SHOULD" continue to be excluded in the supposedly grown-up world of work.
That's a valid point, but getting a software position at Google pits her against people who have PhDs in Computer Science. Google isn't a little startup with a low bar for entry. It's one of the most sought after employers right now, akin to Bell Labs or Xerox in their heyday. She probably learned how to program, but how many publications has she made in CS related topics? Having a CS degree at the PhD level is not something you can ignore as much as the bachelor level.
Actually her first publication was in a USENIX publication on the use of RPC in the implementation of remote equation solvers in a client-server model.
Last I checked, all of her other publications were in computational fluid mechanics -- you know, where you write code to model fluid flow, usually using finite difference, finite element or spectral techniques.
How different is a PhD in computational physics from a CS PhD? In many cases, The PhD in Computational Physics has far more actual coding experience than the CS PhD.
The PhD in computational physics is guaranteed to have written a great deal of code and building systems grunty enough to run them on -- in Cheryl Stewart (nee Fillekes) case taking advantage of remote supercomputers using SUN RPC and XDR IEEE data encoding not to mention developing mixed-language code by cross-compiling C and Fortran object modules at a time when 'teh internets' did not even exist save a few interconnected ARPAnet and NSFnet nodes (which she also worked on the gateway protocols for), while the CS PhD might have spent their entire academic career on purely theoretical subjects, like lambda calculus or formal logic, and may never written a line of code.
"all cars use different firmware with different security holes and different CPUs. But with enough research you could probably crack a specific vulnerable car model."
Like a Mercedes C250 coup for example.
http://www.occupy.com/article/exclusive-who-killed-michael-hastings
I keep hearing about this "gap in her resume" of 20 years in this thread, but I don't see one. If I count right, programming from the age of 15 to 55 with no gaps in employment is 40 years of experience, not "as much experience as a 25 year old."
Are we talking about the same person?
Or are you imagining a stereotype of a person of the same age and gender, and imagining "problems with her resume" based on your stereotype?
It's actually sort of interesting the imaginary non-fact-based direction this thread goes after this, because it pretty much demonstrates how age and gender (and probably race and religion and nationality) biases actually work:
And whaddaya know! After a few years of this, you have a monoculture of lily white frat boys doing that job! Congratulations!
How many hours did it take you scouring the internet to find something you could denigrate her personality with?
And this is all you came up with?
Wow. Just...wow.
LOLOLOL! tyvvm
But there is no gap in her resume at all. Also, I see no evidence of "being a mommy" associated with a woman anywhere. Why are we even talking about this non-existent "20 year gap in experience"?
Face it, young men expect a woman as old as their mother to BE their mother, and if they're not getting their poor little egos stroked constantly and their fragile delicate little emotions molly-coddled constantly by someone who "should" be as nice to them as their mommy, they'll bitch and complain about her "people skills" not to mention the more actionable comments about her being "ugly" and "old" and "fat" and "overeducated" and "whacko" (clearly there are some armchair psychiatrists here) and "not really qualified because she took 20 years off to make bay bees" even if she's childless and hasn't had a vacation in 40 years.
We've already seen ALL of those comments right here, so you can't say it doesn't happen.
Funny, some pretty outrageously sexist and ageist behavior of young men is often excused on the basis that, well, they're programmers, so they "lack people skills." That makes it OK then, right?
I wonder why "lack of people skills" a reason to excuse the unlawful behavior of young men who make programming environments so toxic to anyone unlike themselves, but appears to be a perfectly valid excuse to unlawfully not even hire an older highly qualified woman?
Back in the late 70's early 80's if you needed software for a research project, you had to write it yourself -- particularly a modeling and simulation project in computational geophysical fluid dynamics or computational theoretical astrophysics. And Unix -- namely BSD Unix -- on a PDP 11 or VAX 11/750 was the most cost effective way for most departments to get a powerful enough platform to develop and run such codes on.
In fact, most of the sys admins at the time -- and systems developers -- were graduate students and postdocs in the physical sciences at elite institutions. In fact, a lot of the application stack built on top of TCP/IP not to mention the systems utilities were developed by such grad students.
She did her PhD at the University of Chicago. Here, let me google that for you: http://geosci.uchicago.edu/fac... I wonder what they're doing with all those computational resources? Hmmm? And back in the day, who built them? Grad students, mostly.
It's a little rich for some Johnny-come-lately lily-white frat boy Java programmer to reject someone who was probably directly involved with the foundations of Unix network development and the implementation of codes over ARPAnet and NSFnet which eventually became -- gasp! the internet.
And, interestingly, some of the outrageously sexist behavior of the very same frat boys is excused on the basis that, well, they're programmers, so they "lack people skills."
Why is "lack of people skills" a reason to excuse the unlawful behavior of a young man, but an excuse to unlawfully not even hire an older woman?
double facepalm