From what I've heard of the new CS students here, that's not unique to the girls:)
On the other hand, as stated several times above...girls need encouragement in their formative years. They need to be taught _not_ to be frightened of math and technology, as opposed to the other way around.
By high school they've been taught to be uninclined toward exploring for themselves. At that point, steering 'em towards CS is a really unwise idea. (shrug) This goes for the students who think that "CS is about web design" as well as anyone who doesn't really care much for the topic but is there because it seems lucrative.
Anyone who's uninclined to play around with a topic needs to not be in the subject at all (All my own opinion of course).
) Debating this question on Slashdot would likely lend credence to stereotypes.
I see this a lot on my school's newsgroups. Bemoaning the few women at the Tech school is often followed by "but all the women here have TBS [Tech Bitch Syndrome]. So even the few that are here are tainted."
This is said by people who have multiple female friends who are not unpleasant people. People have everyday evidence to counteract stereotypical prejudices. For some reason, when speaking in generalities, the stereotypes always come up again...
And all the people on the newsgroup say, "You are soooo right"--when the conflicting evidence is directly in front of them!
) Women are just as capable of doing this kind of stuff, if there are less of them doing it, ) it's because they don't want to. Not because society says so.
No one's arguing the "they don't want to," I think. On the other hand, *W*H*Y* don't they want to? That is the societal element.
I'd have to strongly disagree here. It's not that women are not drawn to computers--it's that women are _pointed_ away from technology, by various external factors that are so prevalent that they are difficult to see.
It's not that we're not interested, it's that we're taught to be frightened of such things. So we don't do as much exploring, true--but I certainly believe it's not due to inherent tendencies.
) It's true that often the assummption is that if someone's good they must be a guy.
Actually, that's not what I meant. It's that people tend to assume that if the gender is unknown, then the person in question is a guy--doesn't seem to me that skill is a factor.
Neo: you're *that* Trinity? I thought you were a guy... Trinity: Most guys do.
...visibility is low because people assume that neutral names or unnameds are men.
Given the response to women around--aside from "oh my god it's a girl, GET HER!!" there's also "oh my god it's a girl, RUN AWAY!"--it's easier to let people assume you're a guy, sometimes.
) One who loves to write free software should not need to be "encouraged" or "pushed" into it.
How does one _learn_ to appreciate writing software, if all of one's life one has absorbed the societal ideas: as a woman, one is bad at logical and rational material, thus one must focus one's energies elsewhere...
Seriously, I'm bombarded with such things constantly--even at a Tech institute where, theoretically, it's being established quite clearly that this is NOT genetic (as women consistently outperform the guys)...
I'm a geek chick, but I don't program, beyond scripts for my own convenience...my focus is science:) I use the *nix and I like it--have solely linux on my PC--but I'd rather use it than write it. Sad for me, perhaps, to not be willing/able to contribute to something which pleases me so greatly--but it's just not where *my* interests lie. I'd rather be doing the math and physics.
I've been lucky, in some ways. I had encouragement from my father to learn about his 8088; a friend gave me a 386 my senior year of high school. I am not frightened of computers as are some chicks I've met--again, at a Tech institute where people come to learn about such things. My family told me to do whatever I wanted to do...though all the women in my family so far have done the liberal arts (mostly english lit) degree because it was "the thing to do".
But I had NO academic encouragement to be in the sciences or to be involved with computers. I shocked my entire high school when I made a 5/5 on the *non* calculus-based physics Advanced Placement (college level) exam... because I'm a chick. (they wouldn't let me take the physics based class, because I was the only one in the school who wanted it) And I was at a top US college-prep high school! I wasn't discouraged openly from my geeky tendencies--not by the school--but I was also not encouraged, definitely not encouraged the way the "smart" guys were.
How does one learn to appreciate any subject, if one has been taught to be frightened of it because one is female? How dare you call that an "excuse"?
) In the ideal democracy, those who care about a ) subject vote, and those who don't, don't.
I disagree; I'd've voted in the '98 elections if I had been able to find the polling place...[I had just moved.] But I couldn't get a telephone response for directions for the entire week before, after calling both the # on my voters registration card, and the phone book listing for the polling place.
I suppose if I "really care" I'd've made a greater effort, but I have a lot to do in my life, and tracking down directions should not have been as difficult as they made it.
) I don't think that a nine yr. old needs to see a fellow jacking off, or Saddam Hussein waving penises at Satan. Granted, I can see little wrong with letting ) a sixteen yr. old...
I have an eighteen year old younger sister who is exceptionally naive; I'm not sure *she* should see SouthPark (though I am going to take her to see it, and have some long talks with her about its content).
I myself was very mature at the age of 12; I'd've enjoyed SP for the parts that *are* humor.
Slapping an arbitrary line down and saying "this is it!" will not fly. It's an individual thing. I think parents and children should TALK about the content of movies... not say "you can't go to this because it's wrong." Parents should be able to judge the maturity and intelligence of their own children (*should*...many parents have blind spots where their kids are concerned...) Exterior agencies really shouldn't have any say in that whatsoever. It's up to a family, the person who is actually legally responsible for the child--and the child him/herself.
The connection to technology is just as he said: that now we're getting this drama on 5 channels (or more?) 24/7, in bright colors and choreographed by people whose goal is to make you feel--and keep watching.
Media hasn't always been able to do this; sensationalist headlines were not instantaneous, and tended not to move. True, they've always been designed to make you want to buy or watch (even if they have to override logic with emotion to do so), but now the medium is much more powerful.
I don't watch TV, and I avoid the newspaper like the plague that it is. I still haven't been able to avoid this story, despite trying very hard (I mean, JFKJr means nothing to me, and watching people sorrow for publicity's sake grates on my nerves).
I listen to NPR on the way to/from work tho; I usually have a lot of respect for them; they usually present real news. I even heard this junk THERE. As much as I try to avoid the emotion-stories that the media (pretty much) invents/inflames to increase circulation, I could not avoid this story, the Diana "tragedy," the Columbine "horror"...all from the points of view of the media, of course. All news opinions come from the points of view of the media braodcasting it, are reinforced in the populace, and are fed back to the media who then believes that they were right to have broadcast it that way to begin with...
The article recently about slashdot and...free-something-or-other (grin), talking about how using a medium like these to broadcast news, has the right of it.
Indeed, I think BellSouth's problem is that they just don't _want_ to. Of course, I just checked their page, and now they tell me they can...maybe. (laugh) I'd be upset about their hassle if I weren't too sick:)
I'm not sure they're the best option tho. Anybody know if there's a better provider or combination thereof in the Atlanta area?
BellSouth says they can't get me ADSL (though three blocks away I've a friend with it). Flashcom said they would--but I played phone tag with them for 3 weeks then lost their number; guess I was lucky.
Anybody know more than me about service in this area?
Slashdot Mirror
From what I've heard of the new CS students here, that's not unique to the girls :)
On the other hand, as stated several times above...girls need encouragement in their formative years. They need to be taught _not_ to be frightened of math and technology, as opposed to the other way around.
By high school they've been taught to be uninclined toward exploring for themselves. At that point, steering 'em towards CS is a really unwise idea. (shrug) This goes for the students who think that "CS is about web design" as well as anyone who doesn't really care much for the topic but is there because it seems lucrative.
Anyone who's uninclined to play around with a topic needs to not be in the subject at all (All my own opinion of course).
) I think that girls are often encouraged more that guys to use computers.
:)
I believe the key word relevant to the discussion, in this quote, is "use."
) Debating this question on Slashdot would likely lend credence to stereotypes.
I see this a lot on my school's newsgroups. Bemoaning the few women at the Tech school is often followed by "but all the women here have TBS [Tech Bitch Syndrome]. So even the few that are here are tainted."
This is said by people who have multiple female friends who are not unpleasant people. People have everyday evidence to counteract stereotypical prejudices. For some reason, when speaking in generalities, the stereotypes always come up again...
And all the people on the newsgroup say, "You are soooo right"--when the conflicting evidence is directly in front of them!
(sigh)
Stereotypes cause so much unpleasantness...
) Women are just as capable of doing this kind of stuff, if there are less of them doing it,
) it's because they don't want to. Not because society says so.
No one's arguing the "they don't want to," I think. On the other hand, *W*H*Y* don't they want to? That is the societal element.
I'd have to strongly disagree here. It's not that women are not drawn to computers--it's that women are _pointed_ away from technology, by various external factors that are so prevalent that they are difficult to see.
It's not that we're not interested, it's that we're taught to be frightened of such things. So we don't do as much exploring, true--but I certainly believe it's not due to inherent tendencies.
) It's true that often the assummption is that if someone's good they must be a guy.
Actually, that's not what I meant. It's that people tend to assume that if the gender is unknown, then the person in question is a guy--doesn't seem to me that skill is a factor.
Neo: you're *that* Trinity? I thought you were a guy...
Trinity: Most guys do.
...visibility is low because people assume that neutral names or unnameds are men.
Given the response to women around--aside from "oh my god it's a girl, GET HER!!" there's also "oh my god it's a girl, RUN AWAY!"--it's easier to let people assume you're a guy, sometimes.
) One who loves to write free software should not need to be "encouraged" or "pushed" into it.
:) I use the *nix and I like it--have solely linux on my PC--but I'd rather use it than write it. Sad for me, perhaps, to not be willing/able to contribute to something which pleases me so greatly--but it's just not where *my* interests lie. I'd rather be doing the math and physics.
How does one _learn_ to appreciate writing software, if all of one's life one has absorbed the societal ideas: as a woman, one is bad at logical and rational material, thus one must focus one's energies elsewhere...
Seriously, I'm bombarded with such things constantly--even at a Tech institute where, theoretically, it's being established quite clearly that this is NOT genetic (as women consistently outperform the guys)...
I'm a geek chick, but I don't program, beyond scripts for my own convenience...my focus is science
I've been lucky, in some ways. I had encouragement from my father to learn about his 8088; a friend gave me a 386 my senior year of high school. I am not frightened of computers as are some chicks I've met--again, at a Tech institute where people come to learn about such things. My family told me to do whatever I wanted to do...though all the women in my family so far have done the liberal arts (mostly english lit) degree because it was "the thing to do".
But I had NO academic encouragement to be in the sciences or to be involved with computers. I shocked my entire high school when I made a 5/5 on the *non* calculus-based physics Advanced Placement (college level) exam... because I'm a chick. (they wouldn't let me take the physics based class, because I was the only one in the school who wanted it) And I was at a top US college-prep high school! I wasn't discouraged openly from my geeky tendencies--not by the school--but I was also not encouraged, definitely not encouraged the way the "smart" guys were.
How does one learn to appreciate any subject, if one has been taught to be frightened of it because one is female? How dare you call that an "excuse"?
) In the ideal democracy, those who care about a
) subject vote, and those who don't, don't.
I disagree; I'd've voted in the '98 elections if I had been able to find the polling place...[I had just moved.] But I couldn't get a telephone response for directions for the entire week before, after calling both the # on my voters registration card, and the phone book listing for the polling place.
I suppose if I "really care" I'd've made a greater effort, but I have a lot to do in my life, and tracking down directions should not have been as difficult as they made it.
) I don't think that a nine yr. old needs to see a fellow jacking off, or Saddam Hussein waving penises at Satan. Granted, I can see little wrong with letting ...
...many parents have blind spots where their kids are concerned...) Exterior agencies really shouldn't have any say in that whatsoever. It's up to a family, the person who is actually legally responsible for the child--and the child him/herself.
) a sixteen yr. old
I have an eighteen year old younger sister who is exceptionally naive; I'm not sure *she* should see SouthPark (though I am going to take her to see it, and have some long talks with her about its content).
I myself was very mature at the age of 12; I'd've enjoyed SP for the parts that *are* humor.
Slapping an arbitrary line down and saying "this is it!" will not fly. It's an individual thing. I think parents and children should TALK about the content of movies... not say "you can't go to this because it's wrong." Parents should be able to judge the maturity and intelligence of their own children (*should*
Odd coincidence, there was a Red Meat recently that seems applicable:
m lx
http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/comics/rm_430.ht
The connection to technology is just as he said: that now we're getting this drama on 5 channels (or more?) 24/7, in bright colors and choreographed by people whose goal is to make you feel--and keep watching.
Media hasn't always been able to do this; sensationalist headlines were not instantaneous, and tended not to move. True, they've always been designed to make you want to buy or watch (even if they have to override logic with emotion to do so), but now the medium is much more powerful.
"like Mussolini, and Kennedy
I'm the Cult of Personality"
I don't watch TV, and I avoid the newspaper like the plague that it is. I still haven't been able to avoid this story, despite trying very hard (I mean, JFKJr means nothing to me, and watching people sorrow for publicity's sake grates on my nerves).
...free-something-or-other (grin), talking about how using a medium like these to broadcast news, has the right of it.
I listen to NPR on the way to/from work tho; I usually have a lot of respect for them; they usually present real news. I even heard this junk THERE. As much as I try to avoid the emotion-stories that the media (pretty much) invents/inflames to increase circulation, I could not avoid this story, the Diana "tragedy," the Columbine "horror"...all from the points of view of the media, of course. All news opinions come from the points of view of the media braodcasting it, are reinforced in the populace, and are fed back to the media who then believes that they were right to have broadcast it that way to begin with...
The article recently about slashdot and
Noooo! I need my television! How else would I watch movies at home?
Of course, the best description of my televition is "VCR receiever."
Hm. I do believe the series of features on Columbine were in protest of the effect of the techno-milking, not in participation therewith.
Indeed, I think BellSouth's problem is that they just don't _want_ to. Of course, I just checked their page, and now they tell me they can...maybe. (laugh) I'd be upset about their hassle if I weren't too sick :)
I'm not sure they're the best option tho. Anybody know if there's a better provider or combination thereof in the Atlanta area?
BellSouth says they can't get me ADSL (though three blocks away I've a friend with it). Flashcom said they would--but I played phone tag with them for 3 weeks then lost their number; guess I was lucky.
Anybody know more than me about service in this area?
) Dammit. And I've been sending spam to these guys
) for about a week now.
Hm. I sent 'em a message (while browsing on their site) and my mail bounced.