that's some starry eyed optimism. i think what i possess is realism, mostly ECONOMIC realism
but if you really want to go to the red planet, you better go and learn some mandarin and start talking to the reds, because the closest anyone is to getting to mars, is in the decision making of some grumpy old men in beijing
yes, you missed the point where the quality of your thoughts have led me to believe you are a fucking idiot. no straw man or ad hominem involved, just a qualitative, honest appraisal of your intelligence from what you have committed to comment
your cynicism is common and typical, your concerns betray a simpleton's cognitive grasp
neither of us are going to live to see a self-sustaining mission on mars or venus. when and in such time that it becomes viable, my bet it is on venus. the technological leaps are greater for venus, but a number of natural advantages: temperature, air pressure, gravity, and magnetosphere, point to venus as the future in my mind. go ahead and think otherwise, good for you. i don't think mars is the future. venus is, and i've stated my case: air pressure, temperature, magnetosphere, gravity
no, they really are dead. i'm not talking about conspiracy theories, i'm talking about widespread public support. widespread public support existed for communism before 1990, now no more. widespread public support existed for fascism before 1945, now no more. that makes these ideologies dead. no one can plausibly or credibly call themselves a communist or a fascist and appeal to a large swath of the population ever again. and that is a permanent sea change
i don't agree with much of what ron paul says. i just want some of the ron paul supporters to see what i am saying is not so far from what they believe about capitalism
Despite the harsh conditions on the surface, the atmospheric pressure and temperature at about 50 km to 65 km above the surface of the planet is nearly the same as that of the Earth, making its upper atmosphere the most Earth-like area in the Solar System, even more so than the surface of Mars. Due to the similarity in pressure and temperature and the fact that breathable air (21% oxygen, 78% nitrogen) is a lifting gas on Venus in the same way that helium is a lifting gas on Earth, the upper atmosphere has been proposed as a location for both exploration and colonization.[11]
your cloud city simply floats with the winds. go ask a hot air balloonist how a thunderstorm is maneuvered around: up and over with the winds, nice and lazy. meanwhile, ever hear of a martian dust storm? i assert categorically that a martian settlement will have more problems with weather than a cloud city you just lazily maneuver around for perfect lighting, temperature, and air pressure, avoiding all storms above the cloud tops. you are the one constantly cleaning dry martian dust grit from your robotic mining joints, dealing with frigid temperature, paltry gravity, thin atmospheric pressure, no magnetosphere, and weak solar energy. venus has none of these problems
"But given that we're already figuring out the biochemical signals for bone production and have mechanical tricks for simulating higher gravity..."
i actually agree with this sentiment. however at this point i have to call you a hypocrite and ignorant of your own assertions. you refer to depending on contemporary science for all martian settlements above. and you ridicule me for depending on future technology to make venus cloud cities work. yet you are doing the same thing with mars
you can't keep track of what i have already posted and you can't keep track of your own assertion from only a post or two before
if you are going to advocate effectively you have to have some logical integrity and cognitive coherence in your words
i have nothing against china. i love chinese people and chinese culture. but i have a big problem with the oligarchy in beijing. i am not anti-chinese. i am anti-CCP
nothing would satisfy me more than to see chinese democracy. if i see that come to pass, i would WELCOME chinese meddling in my country's broken democracy as it is corrupted by corporate dollars and i have lost faith in it
but as it is, the oligarchy in beijing is here for awhile, and in that time, the buying of my government by corporate dollars will become a buying of my government by multinational corporations answering to foreign masters. those foreign masters could be from anywhere, as you say, but they mostly will be from beijing, because beijing is becoming the new economic center of the world
well then why don't you stop laughing at me and get serious and recognize our shared concerns is an opportunity to move beyond blind partisan ideology and to actually help our country
"Point is, you don't need technology that we don't yet know how to develop for Mars. We already have a variety of mechanical and chemical processes, proven on Earth, for extracting what we need from what we already know exists on Mars."
LOL. you're a funny man
"To be honest, I don't think Venus has much of a magnetic field, being a thousand times weaker than Earth. Its atmosphere is probably more of a deterrent to cosmic rays and solar wind. Also UV radiation and any other EM radiation such as solar X-rays isn't blocked by magnetic fields (plasmas trapped in magnetic fields can block EM radiation, but anything of that sort present at Mars won't stop UV radiation."
you apparently didn't read my original post way above
mars: thin atmosphere venus: earth atmosphere is isobaric at cloudtops
mars: frigid cold venus: isothermic at cloudtops
mars: no magnetosphere venus: induced magnetosphere
mars: weak sun venus: strong sun, good solar power
you can move your floating cities at will. on mars, you are stuck in your sandstorms. lower equipment to the surface to get any elements you need
look, you are clearly identifying a number of areas where mars is better than venus. and you didn't even bring up the problem of the caustic sulfuric acid
but when you examine the pluses and minuses OVERALL, venus comes out on top as a better bet. that's just my opinion. we are many generations from a serious sustainable mars or venus effort, and in that time, technology changes will clearly identify which is the superior choice
all i am saying today is that too many people jump on the mars bandwagon, without a hard look at the pluses and minuses and seeing what seems to me to be the better initial option: venus
maybe we'll just send all the women to venus and all the men to mars;-)
"Where did the material for your habitat come from?"
some sort of nanobots are taking solar energy and using the dense carbon dioxide of venus to spin it into carbon nanotubes to build cloud cities and breathable oxygen. obviously, that's a huge technological leap, but, this is what plants already do on earth, in a way. any discussion of colonizing planets is science fiction, but making nanotubes out of carbon dioxide using solar energy is not completely bonkers
"What are the windows or the solar powered fans made of?"
good question. but at least you can have them on venus because of the magnetosphere. you can't have windows on anything on mars unless you like cancer. maybe some technological leap in biotech in the future will cure cancer and you won't have to worry about it on mars, and maybe you won't be able to build habitats out of carbon nanotubes. we're all speculating here. but you have to admit that the martian gravity sucks, the martian air pressure sucks, the martian temperature sucks, and the lack of a magnetosphere sucks. venus has earth gravity, you can position your cloud city at the right air pressure and temperature for human friendly living. using no energy to maintain either. a tear in your habitat above venus? repair at your leisure, its isobaric and isothermic. a tear in your habitat on mars? uh oh. possibly explosive emergency, growing leak. and there is an induced magnetosphere. and you have multiples more solar energy at your disposal on venus compared to mars. don't these NATURAL superiorities mean anything to you?
"How are you shielding yourself from harmful UV radiation?"
wait, what? that's a problem on mars, not on venus. venus is the one with a magnetosphere, mars doesn't have one
let me ask you something: what are doing about your colonists getting frail brittle bones from the low martian gravity? this is a proven medical phenomenon of astronauts living for a long time in zero gravity, even with exercise. yes, carbon nanotube cloud cities is a science fiction leap. artificial gravity is a greater leap
"In my "pressure cooker", virtually everything except for the high tech stuff like electronics can be made locally."
same with venus! just lower a rope, the metal you pull up is even premelted and leached by the plentiful sulfuric acid. lol
"I don't have to worry about freak venusian weather tearing my very solid habitat apart."
you never heard of a mars dust storm? have fun getting that ultrafine martian dust out of your robotic's joints. on venus, you simply and lazily use the solar powered fans to move your entire city out of the way. besides, you are ABOVE the clouds. all the chaos is below you
only do business with corporations that abide by certain standards of behavior in regards to their workers. you don't need unions if the law of the land represents worker's interests
now obviously it will be very hard to get those rules in place and to enforce them and abide by them. but it's the only way forward
yeah... um, i'm sorry for sticking up for the american people and democracy instead of chinese oligarchy and corporations. why you think that is populist fearmongering and is therefore suspect is curious to me
and i'm glad you have so much faith that the chinese oligarchy is so weak because of rare events. apparently, its not important to you to think about right and wrong, its enough for you to depend upon rare events to magically make things right. that's a wonderful faith have. and i'm so glad you are so unconcerned with what is good for the world, the chinese people, or the american people. shouldn't that motivate your words? no: your position is something rare and magicla will happen and everything will be ok. pfffffffffft
my only response to your lack of concern would be that the only thing worse than false alarmism is false complacency
but as ideologies that enjoyed wide support, or at least widespread consideration as major and important forces, fascism died in 1945 and communism died in 1990
so maybe some on the right can join me in this fight against the corporate destruction of our democracy, which will eventually be wedded to chinese oligarchy
it's hard to maintain the balance. however capitalism unleashes a productivity that simply doesn't exist in other systems. we need capitalism, but we need to harness and muzzle it, or the negative side effects of capitalism will eat your society alive. capitalism is a beast, but a necessary beast. it must be controlled, but it must not be destroyed or ignored. or some other society will grow in power through capitalism and warp yours. you need to use capitalism. you just need to make sure it doesn't use you
Slashdot Mirror
is there an iPhone app for this yet?
my opinion of you is based on what you have written. in what other way should i derive my opinion of you?
realism:
earth gravity, magnetosphere, human friendly isothermic, human friendly isobaric, intense solar energy
have a nice day! ;-)
that's some starry eyed optimism. i think what i possess is realism, mostly ECONOMIC realism
but if you really want to go to the red planet, you better go and learn some mandarin and start talking to the reds, because the closest anyone is to getting to mars, is in the decision making of some grumpy old men in beijing
yes, you missed the point where the quality of your thoughts have led me to believe you are a fucking idiot. no straw man or ad hominem involved, just a qualitative, honest appraisal of your intelligence from what you have committed to comment
your cynicism is common and typical, your concerns betray a simpleton's cognitive grasp
neither of us are going to live to see a self-sustaining mission on mars or venus. when and in such time that it becomes viable, my bet it is on venus. the technological leaps are greater for venus, but a number of natural advantages: temperature, air pressure, gravity, and magnetosphere, point to venus as the future in my mind. go ahead and think otherwise, good for you. i don't think mars is the future. venus is, and i've stated my case: air pressure, temperature, magnetosphere, gravity
common simple and easy cynicism is a poor replacement for true intelligence. your thinking is a dime a dozen, and just not very bright
the false alarmist, and the false complacent, two types of fucking ignorant morons, one of which you are a shining example of
no, they really are dead. i'm not talking about conspiracy theories, i'm talking about widespread public support. widespread public support existed for communism before 1990, now no more. widespread public support existed for fascism before 1945, now no more. that makes these ideologies dead. no one can plausibly or credibly call themselves a communist or a fascist and appeal to a large swath of the population ever again. and that is a permanent sea change
i don't agree with much of what ron paul says. i just want some of the ron paul supporters to see what i am saying is not so far from what they believe about capitalism
you don't even read the posts you are responding too apparently. from the top post:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus
your cloud city simply floats with the winds. go ask a hot air balloonist how a thunderstorm is maneuvered around: up and over with the winds, nice and lazy. meanwhile, ever hear of a martian dust storm? i assert categorically that a martian settlement will have more problems with weather than a cloud city you just lazily maneuver around for perfect lighting, temperature, and air pressure, avoiding all storms above the cloud tops. you are the one constantly cleaning dry martian dust grit from your robotic mining joints, dealing with frigid temperature, paltry gravity, thin atmospheric pressure, no magnetosphere, and weak solar energy. venus has none of these problems
"But given that we're already figuring out the biochemical signals for bone production and have mechanical tricks for simulating higher gravity..."
i actually agree with this sentiment. however at this point i have to call you a hypocrite and ignorant of your own assertions. you refer to depending on contemporary science for all martian settlements above. and you ridicule me for depending on future technology to make venus cloud cities work. yet you are doing the same thing with mars
you can't keep track of what i have already posted and you can't keep track of your own assertion from only a post or two before
if you are going to advocate effectively you have to have some logical integrity and cognitive coherence in your words
above the cloudtops, venus does not have wild weather. what venus is is isothermic from pole to equator, from night to day
you didn't answer my quesiton about brittle bones due to your low martian gravity. i guess some magic technology will fix that?
venus has plenty of problems. mars has more
good for canada
you guys wouldn't have a problem if we did a trade? new york state for alberta? i think everyone would be happier
i have nothing against china. i love chinese people and chinese culture. but i have a big problem with the oligarchy in beijing. i am not anti-chinese. i am anti-CCP
nothing would satisfy me more than to see chinese democracy. if i see that come to pass, i would WELCOME chinese meddling in my country's broken democracy as it is corrupted by corporate dollars and i have lost faith in it
but as it is, the oligarchy in beijing is here for awhile, and in that time, the buying of my government by corporate dollars will become a buying of my government by multinational corporations answering to foreign masters. those foreign masters could be from anywhere, as you say, but they mostly will be from beijing, because beijing is becoming the new economic center of the world
well then why don't you stop laughing at me and get serious and recognize our shared concerns is an opportunity to move beyond blind partisan ideology and to actually help our country
"Point is, you don't need technology that we don't yet know how to develop for Mars. We already have a variety of mechanical and chemical processes, proven on Earth, for extracting what we need from what we already know exists on Mars."
LOL. you're a funny man
"To be honest, I don't think Venus has much of a magnetic field, being a thousand times weaker than Earth. Its atmosphere is probably more of a deterrent to cosmic rays and solar wind. Also UV radiation and any other EM radiation such as solar X-rays isn't blocked by magnetic fields (plasmas trapped in magnetic fields can block EM radiation, but anything of that sort present at Mars won't stop UV radiation."
you apparently didn't read my original post way above
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus#Induced_magnetosphere
mars does not have this
but let's recap
mars: weak gravity, brittle bones
venus: earth gravity
mars: thin atmosphere
venus: earth atmosphere is isobaric at cloudtops
mars: frigid cold
venus: isothermic at cloudtops
mars: no magnetosphere
venus: induced magnetosphere
mars: weak sun
venus: strong sun, good solar power
you can move your floating cities at will. on mars, you are stuck in your sandstorms. lower equipment to the surface to get any elements you need
look, you are clearly identifying a number of areas where mars is better than venus. and you didn't even bring up the problem of the caustic sulfuric acid
but when you examine the pluses and minuses OVERALL, venus comes out on top as a better bet. that's just my opinion. we are many generations from a serious sustainable mars or venus effort, and in that time, technology changes will clearly identify which is the superior choice
all i am saying today is that too many people jump on the mars bandwagon, without a hard look at the pluses and minuses and seeing what seems to me to be the better initial option: venus
maybe we'll just send all the women to venus and all the men to mars ;-)
i agree 110%. thank you
i am using the term correctly
you just referred to the chinese economic system as anarchy
if you really believe this you are a complete moron on the subject matter
this iceland?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932010_Icelandic_financial_crisis
"Where did the material for your habitat come from?"
some sort of nanobots are taking solar energy and using the dense carbon dioxide of venus to spin it into carbon nanotubes to build cloud cities and breathable oxygen. obviously, that's a huge technological leap, but, this is what plants already do on earth, in a way. any discussion of colonizing planets is science fiction, but making nanotubes out of carbon dioxide using solar energy is not completely bonkers
"What are the windows or the solar powered fans made of?"
good question. but at least you can have them on venus because of the magnetosphere. you can't have windows on anything on mars unless you like cancer. maybe some technological leap in biotech in the future will cure cancer and you won't have to worry about it on mars, and maybe you won't be able to build habitats out of carbon nanotubes. we're all speculating here. but you have to admit that the martian gravity sucks, the martian air pressure sucks, the martian temperature sucks, and the lack of a magnetosphere sucks. venus has earth gravity, you can position your cloud city at the right air pressure and temperature for human friendly living. using no energy to maintain either. a tear in your habitat above venus? repair at your leisure, its isobaric and isothermic. a tear in your habitat on mars? uh oh. possibly explosive emergency, growing leak. and there is an induced magnetosphere. and you have multiples more solar energy at your disposal on venus compared to mars. don't these NATURAL superiorities mean anything to you?
"How are you shielding yourself from harmful UV radiation?"
wait, what? that's a problem on mars, not on venus. venus is the one with a magnetosphere, mars doesn't have one
let me ask you something: what are doing about your colonists getting frail brittle bones from the low martian gravity? this is a proven medical phenomenon of astronauts living for a long time in zero gravity, even with exercise. yes, carbon nanotube cloud cities is a science fiction leap. artificial gravity is a greater leap
"In my "pressure cooker", virtually everything except for the high tech stuff like electronics can be made locally."
same with venus! just lower a rope, the metal you pull up is even premelted and leached by the plentiful sulfuric acid. lol
"I don't have to worry about freak venusian weather tearing my very solid habitat apart."
you never heard of a mars dust storm? have fun getting that ultrafine martian dust out of your robotic's joints. on venus, you simply and lazily use the solar powered fans to move your entire city out of the way. besides, you are ABOVE the clouds. all the chaos is below you
only do business with corporations that abide by certain standards of behavior in regards to their workers. you don't need unions if the law of the land represents worker's interests
now obviously it will be very hard to get those rules in place and to enforce them and abide by them. but it's the only way forward
yeah... um, i'm sorry for sticking up for the american people and democracy instead of chinese oligarchy and corporations. why you think that is populist fearmongering and is therefore suspect is curious to me
and i'm glad you have so much faith that the chinese oligarchy is so weak because of rare events. apparently, its not important to you to think about right and wrong, its enough for you to depend upon rare events to magically make things right. that's a wonderful faith have. and i'm so glad you are so unconcerned with what is good for the world, the chinese people, or the american people. shouldn't that motivate your words? no: your position is something rare and magicla will happen and everything will be ok. pfffffffffft
my only response to your lack of concern would be that the only thing worse than false alarmism is false complacency
and north korea and cuba are still communist
but as ideologies that enjoyed wide support, or at least widespread consideration as major and important forces, fascism died in 1945 and communism died in 1990
well said. now if only enough people in this world understand that corporatism is not the capitalism we want
ron paul recognizes this
http://www.ronpaul.com/2009-10-31/ron-paul-responds-to-michael-moore-its-corporatism-not-capitalism/
so maybe some on the right can join me in this fight against the corporate destruction of our democracy, which will eventually be wedded to chinese oligarchy
it's hard to maintain the balance. however capitalism unleashes a productivity that simply doesn't exist in other systems. we need capitalism, but we need to harness and muzzle it, or the negative side effects of capitalism will eat your society alive. capitalism is a beast, but a necessary beast. it must be controlled, but it must not be destroyed or ignored. or some other society will grow in power through capitalism and warp yours. you need to use capitalism. you just need to make sure it doesn't use you