You're on! Like I said, Windows would be break-even for Apple, the profit is selling high-margin hardware to a new audience. There's no point in creating a radical new Mac feature without marketing it, so IMO this is a no-brainer now.
> Surprise (or rather no surprise), it was.
OK, there's been a ton of discussion around this point for the last several months, and almost nobody believed that Apple would ever ship a CSM, and in fact spent a lot of time flaming the idea. If you predicted this, congratulations, you're smarter than 99% of the people commenting on Mac stories.
Obviously, with EFI hardware already on the market, Apple would not be shipping a traditional ASM BIOS. However, I was not moving the goal posts, the other guys were trying to make the Mac's 16-bit legacy PC-Compatible boot code disappear into a puff of logic. The Mac's implemetnation might be more modern, but the gunk is still there, warts and all. (eg, unlike the EFI environment, Mac CSM doesn't support Firewire booting)
Yeah, I started using Macs with an ADB Extended II, and they were excelllent, really great keyboards. However, we're talking about their poor laptop key layout.
One thing you have to realize about Slashdot is that real posts only gets modded "troll" or "flamebait" when they're substantially correct and people are trying to censor them. If you're just wrong, people will just ignore it.
For example, in the other thread I stated that the MacBook has a crappy keyboard, and I got flamebait-modded down to -1 and have 200 MacNuts arguing with me. Why? Because it's true. Anyway, I'm not doing this for karma -- it's for discussion value.
As to your point about Microsoft playing dirty, sure, but I'm not sure what that has to do with Perens' qualifications as a conspiracy theorist aka KOOK.
>>why would Apple create a Windows boot environment, if they weren't planning on selling it.
>Making it _available_ eliminates a major point of contention for possible switchers.
Sure, but with Bootcamp alone it's really not all that available except to technerds.
Windows Pro OEM would cost Apple ~$50 (and they can sell it for $100 to cover outsourced support), where if you were to buy the retail box it's $300 and you have to know how to install it. Let's check back in a year and I bet preinstalled Windows is a checkbox right on the Apple Store.
BIOS question has been answered elsewhere. Zealots said they wouldn't add a BIOS CSM, but there it is. Therefore don't listen to Zealots.:)
(1) Bruce Perens' group claims that Linux might violate many Microsoft patents. (2) Steve Ballmer cites Perens' claim about Linux violating Microsoft patents (3) Perens says "SEE? Ballmer's out to get us!"
Perens might not be helping Linux adoption, he's doing wonders for worldwide FUD production.
Hey, I'm calling Bruce Perens a KOOK on slashdot, so I'll happly admit that I'm in typical mom's basement troll-territory below your threshold. The difference is that nobody cares what NutscrapeSucks thinks.
But, for a guy with all those qualifications, he sure does seem to talk out of his ass a lot. I would like to think that qualified people make qualified statements.
Of course, I never said that 100% of "PC" laptops come with navigation keys -- just that I couldn't think of one that doesn't. And apparently, neither can you. (Actually, probably not that OQO handheld, but I haven't actually seen one yet.)
First of all, I never understood what makes this Bruce Perens guy any more credible than any random person on Slashdot. The guy seems to mainly troll about RedHat and Windows and make un-informative IANAL posts. And then you have this story, which seems to put him firmly in "KOOK" territory. Why's he so famous in the Linux crowd?
Second, isn't Bill Gates' dad a big time progressive democrat? He only goes public to argue how the American people should make he and his son pay higher taxes. The basic premise connecting him to GOP operatives seems a little off.
Finally, the idea that ODF is of any importance at all to guys like Delay and Abramoff is really silly.
See my other posts... I've been a proud Apple customer for years and know all too well what makes you guys tick... which is exactly why it's so entertaining watching you guys freak-out over a BIOS:)
I also have to say that it's entertaining watching you Mac Guys struggle with the Cognitive Dissonance of Apple shipping a largely standard PeeCee (which is apparently something you don't really understand anyway). Time to move on to "Acceptance" because mental gymnastics is not going to make it go away!
Apologies for the accusation -- like I said it boils down to personal opinon. You're just an innocent victim of "Silence The Heretic" moderation as am I.
Wrong. Apple used to design it's own system controllers and chipsets, while modern Intel Macs are a very standard Intel design that required very little system engineering on Apple's part.
Nothing personal, but you accused me of being ignorant and you're wrong. There's nothing "Score 5 Insightful" about that.
If anyone is is ignorant -- it's you. It's not like PC laptop keyboard layouts are a big secret or anything. You basically got moderated up for asking a really dumb question.
A better question for you Mac fans is: Have you typed for any length of time on a ThinkPad keyboard where you can honestly make this assertion that the MacBook has a better keyboard?
Your point might be correct, but it's irrelevant. People with money like to spend it on perceived luxury. This is true for every consumer product. Apple might not compete with the vendors that operate on 2% margin, but they sure can sell to people who don't mind paying a 25% margin, and there's lots of potential profit there.
I answered elsewhere. Having a real PgUp, PgDn, and Forward Delete key is essential -- accept no crappy FN key substitutes, and please don't knock them until you've tried them.
> Pretty cases are nice, but not something on which to base a serious grab for market share.
That's where I disagree. There's many Wintel vendors that sell on industrial design -- Sony, IBM/Levano, Alienware, and even Dell XPS. It might not be big in terms of marketshare, but the profits are huge in that segment.
Look, everyone agrees that BIOS sucks and EFI is better. Good for Apple for shipping EFI and a BIOS CSM. Everyone's happy.
>First off even windows no longer uses a bios in the sense of providing services that do more than bootstrap the computer. So no Mac doesn't have a bios.
This logic is so twisted, it's not worth commenting on. Apple just shipped a BIOS, you can't argue it away.
> There is no "real mode" on an Itanium. Wrong. Current Itanium has complete x86 instruction set.
Slashdot Mirror
>I'll take that bet.
You're on! Like I said, Windows would be break-even for Apple, the profit is selling high-margin hardware to a new audience. There's no point in creating a radical new Mac feature without marketing it, so IMO this is a no-brainer now.
> Surprise (or rather no surprise), it was.
OK, there's been a ton of discussion around this point for the last several months, and almost nobody believed that Apple would ever ship a CSM, and in fact spent a lot of time flaming the idea. If you predicted this, congratulations, you're smarter than 99% of the people commenting on Mac stories.
Obviously, with EFI hardware already on the market, Apple would not be shipping a traditional ASM BIOS. However, I was not moving the goal posts, the other guys were trying to make the Mac's 16-bit legacy PC-Compatible boot code disappear into a puff of logic. The Mac's implemetnation might be more modern, but the gunk is still there, warts and all. (eg, unlike the EFI environment, Mac CSM doesn't support Firewire booting)
Well, you've sunk to my level then, tuxedobob.
The immature behavior seen here comes from a certain crowd that will not respect my tastes in keyboards.
Yeah, I started using Macs with an ADB Extended II, and they were excelllent, really great keyboards. However, we're talking about their poor laptop key layout.
One thing you have to realize about Slashdot is that real posts only gets modded "troll" or "flamebait" when they're substantially correct and people are trying to censor them. If you're just wrong, people will just ignore it.
For example, in the other thread I stated that the MacBook has a crappy keyboard, and I got flamebait-modded down to -1 and have 200 MacNuts arguing with me. Why? Because it's true. Anyway, I'm not doing this for karma -- it's for discussion value.
As to your point about Microsoft playing dirty, sure, but I'm not sure what that has to do with Perens' qualifications as a conspiracy theorist aka KOOK.
>>why would Apple create a Windows boot environment, if they weren't planning on selling it.
:)
>Making it _available_ eliminates a major point of contention for possible switchers.
Sure, but with Bootcamp alone it's really not all that available except to technerds.
Windows Pro OEM would cost Apple ~$50 (and they can sell it for $100 to cover outsourced support), where if you were to buy the retail box it's $300 and you have to know how to install it. Let's check back in a year and I bet preinstalled Windows is a checkbox right on the Apple Store.
BIOS question has been answered elsewhere. Zealots said they wouldn't add a BIOS CSM, but there it is. Therefore don't listen to Zealots.
> So to paraphrase, "please don't knock [the lack of] them until you've tried them."
Like I said, I have for years. The point is that I shouldn't have read an essay to justify spending $2000 on a laptop with obvious design issues.
The patent think is kind of funny.
(1) Bruce Perens' group claims that Linux might violate many Microsoft patents.
(2) Steve Ballmer cites Perens' claim about Linux violating Microsoft patents
(3) Perens says "SEE? Ballmer's out to get us!"
Perens might not be helping Linux adoption, he's doing wonders for worldwide FUD production.
Forward Delete is "Delete" or "Del" on a PC Keyboard. I wanted be clear because the Backspace key on Mac keyboards is also labeled "Delete".
Hey, I'm calling Bruce Perens a KOOK on slashdot, so I'll happly admit that I'm in typical mom's basement troll-territory below your threshold. The difference is that nobody cares what NutscrapeSucks thinks.
But, for a guy with all those qualifications, he sure does seem to talk out of his ass a lot. I would like to think that qualified people make qualified statements.
Of course, I never said that 100% of "PC" laptops come with navigation keys -- just that I couldn't think of one that doesn't. And apparently, neither can you. (Actually, probably not that OQO handheld, but I haven't actually seen one yet.)
Apple makes money, and NeXT really never did? (Just a random guess.)
Rather than being a snarky douche, perhaps you could be helpful and name one?
First of all, I never understood what makes this Bruce Perens guy any more credible than any random person on Slashdot. The guy seems to mainly troll about RedHat and Windows and make un-informative IANAL posts. And then you have this story, which seems to put him firmly in "KOOK" territory. Why's he so famous in the Linux crowd?
Second, isn't Bill Gates' dad a big time progressive democrat? He only goes public to argue how the American people should make he and his son pay higher taxes. The basic premise connecting him to GOP operatives seems a little off.
Finally, the idea that ODF is of any importance at all to guys like Delay and Abramoff is really silly.
Uh, yeah, facinating, but your Shrink is that way -->
See my other posts ... I've been a proud Apple customer for years and know all too well what makes you guys tick ... which is exactly why it's so entertaining watching you guys freak-out over a BIOS :)
I also have to say that it's entertaining watching you Mac Guys struggle with the Cognitive Dissonance of Apple shipping a largely standard PeeCee (which is apparently something you don't really understand anyway). Time to move on to "Acceptance" because mental gymnastics is not going to make it go away!
> By your definition Open Firmware was a BIOS too.
Totally wrong. Open Firmware was not in anyway IBM PC AT-compatible like Apple's Intel firmware is.
Apologies for the accusation -- like I said it boils down to personal opinon. You're just an innocent victim of "Silence The Heretic" moderation as am I.
Wrong. Apple used to design it's own system controllers and chipsets, while modern Intel Macs are a very standard Intel design that required very little system engineering on Apple's part.
Nothing personal, but you accused me of being ignorant and you're wrong. There's nothing "Score 5 Insightful" about that.
If anyone is is ignorant -- it's you. It's not like PC laptop keyboard layouts are a big secret or anything. You basically got moderated up for asking a really dumb question.
A better question for you Mac fans is:
Have you typed for any length of time on a ThinkPad keyboard where you can honestly make this assertion that the MacBook has a better keyboard?
I can't think of any PC laptop that doesn't.
Your point might be correct, but it's irrelevant. People with money like to spend it on perceived luxury. This is true for every consumer product. Apple might not compete with the vendors that operate on 2% margin, but they sure can sell to people who don't mind paying a 25% margin, and there's lots of potential profit there.
I answered elsewhere. Having a real PgUp, PgDn, and Forward Delete key is essential -- accept no crappy FN key substitutes, and please don't knock them until you've tried them.
> Pretty cases are nice, but not something on which to base a serious grab for market share.
That's where I disagree. There's many Wintel vendors that sell on industrial design -- Sony, IBM/Levano, Alienware, and even Dell XPS. It might not be big in terms of marketshare, but the profits are huge in that segment.
Look, everyone agrees that BIOS sucks and EFI is better. Good for Apple for shipping EFI and a BIOS CSM. Everyone's happy.
>First off even windows no longer uses a bios in the sense of providing services that do more than bootstrap the computer. So no Mac doesn't have a bios.
This logic is so twisted, it's not worth commenting on. Apple just shipped a BIOS, you can't argue it away.
> There is no "real mode" on an Itanium.
Wrong. Current Itanium has complete x86 instruction set.