Wake up. Get real. The two are not related. Man has fought each other in war for thousands of years. It's probably some horrible gene or something--this terrible need we seem to have to destroy each other on fields of battle. Yet only in the last few years have we had kids going to school with guns and bombs to end their peer's lives. And I emphasize PEERS. We are all the same, regardless how we try to set ourselves apart in clothing, cars, trophy girlfriend/boyfriends, etc. I don't think High School years are easy for anybody. The "Nerds" and "Geeks" may all have poor self-esteem, but I assure you that those who have healthy self-esteem have no need or desire to belittle others, "Nerds," "Geeks" or otherwise.
Last, regarding "Why do adults kill?" I think it interesting that you ask that question. I was just wondering this morning if any of these school shootings happened before the "Postal" incident. I don't have the information, like a timeline, but I really wonder if some kid read the story in the paper, or saw it on the boob tube, and thought, "Gnarley idea! That's it! That's how I can get even!" Now I'm not saying that verbal abuse, hazing, harassment, or even rape are an excuse for murder... well, maybe rape, but this thing will never be solved until people get real and start to look inside themselves for how they contributed to this (I really wonder how many "jocks" have gotten away with raping or even gang-raping some poor girl through the years).
I would really like to know how many kids who teased, harassed, and belittled the Columbine shooters now wish they had it to do over again. Sadly, I think denial is in the minds of the majority of the "Jocks and bops" (whatever a bop is).
I watched the Dateline segment highlighting the victims with tears streaming down my own cheeks, but I still cannot know the depth of the grief of the parents of the dead. I say this because I want those parents to know that although I empathize with them and my heart goes out to them, I will be very surprised if any of them would be willing to admit that their child in any way contributed to the shooter's hatred and rage acted out that day. And I fully recognize that some of the dead probably never said a single unfriendly thing to the shooters, or anyone else for that matter.
I submit that Denial is the most dangerous and damaging threat to our kids in school...
Denial of the parents of the shooters when the teacher calls them regarding the horribly violent stories or artwork that little Johnny is doing, or the "I hate People" headband, or the website with instructions on bomb-making and hate industry song lyrics.
Denial of the parents of the "jocks and bops" regarding their hazing and harassment and relentlessly cruel teasing of those not as athletically talented, or gifted with such aesthetically pleasing facial bone structure (or blessed/cursed with the parental financial resources for plastic surgery for nose jobs, ear pulls and even boob jobs!!!)
And the denial of every other person who points a finger at DOOM, Marilyn Manson, or gun control. My opinion has actually changed regarding DOOM in the course of all the reading I have done about this situation. I still am not going to let my 7 year old play it for a few years because of the gore, but I think it provides nothing more than a cathartic outlet, just as punching a pillow or a heavy bag is a similarly healthy outlet for that same aggression or rage. If I'm right about the mental state of the shooters, it is no wonder to me they were fanatics about games like DOOM. I'm thinking there were probably a good many people they WANTED to shoot, not the least of which is their own parents. As for Marilyn Manson, I think anybody that wants to look like a demon will probably spend their eternity with them, but I don't believe that music drove the kids to murder. Gun control? The kids were using weapons that are already illegal. Will we feel better to have more laws on the books that are either not enforced, or that we can say we COULD have charged them with violating if they had not blown their own heads off? Or is it just the point of doing something, ANYTHING--just as long as it's not looking at how my own parenting/lack of, and the hazing my own kids visited on the shooters contributed to this?
Wake up. Get real. The two are not related. Man has fought each other in war for thousands of years. It's probably some horrible gene or something, this terrible need we seem to have to destroy each other on fields of battle. Yet only in the last few years have we had kids going to school with guns and bombs to end their peer's lives. And I emphasize PEERS. We are all the same, regardless how we try to set ourselves apart in clothing, cars, trophy girlfriend/boyfriends, etc. I don't think High School years are easy for anybody. The "Nerds" and "Geeks" may all have poor self-esteem, but I assure you that those who have healthy self-esteem have no need or desire to belittle others, "Nerds," "Geeks" or otherwise.
Last, regarding "Why do adults kill?" I think it interesting that you ask that question. I was just wondering this morning if any of these school shootings happened before the "Postal" incident. I don't have the information, like a timeline, but I really wonder if some kid read the story in the paper, or saw it on the boob tube, and thought, "Gnarley idea! That's it! That's how I can get even!" Now I'm not saying that verbal abuse, hazing, harassment, or even rape are an excuse for murder... well, maybe rape, but this thing will never be solved until people get real and start to look inside themselves for how they contributed to this (I really wonder how many "jocks" have gotten away with raping or even gang-raping some poor girl through the years).
I would really like to know how many kids who teased, harassed, and belittled the Columbine shooters now wish they had it to do over again. Sadly, I think denial is in the minds of the majority of the "Jocks and bops" (whatever a bop is).
I watched the Dateline segment highlighting the victims with tears streaming down my own cheeks, but I still cannot know the depth of the grief of the parents of the dead. I say this because I want those parents to know that although I empathize with them and my heart goes out to them, I will be very surprised if any of them would be willing to admit that their child in any way contributed to the shooter's hatred and rage acted out that day. And I fully recognize that some of the dead probably never said a single unfriendly thing to the shooters, or anyone else for that matter.
I submit that Denial is the most dangerous and damaging threat to our kids in school...
Denial of the parents of the shooters when the teacher calls them regarding the horribly violent stories or artwork that little Johnny is doing, or the "I hate People" headband, or the website with instructions on bomb-making and hate industry song lyrics.
Denial of the parents of the "jocks and bops" regarding their hazing and harassment and relentlessly cruel teasing of those not as athletically talented, or gifted with such aesthetically pleasing facial bone structure (or blessed/cursed with the parental financial resources for plastic surgery for nose jobs, ear pulls and even boob jobs!!!)
And the denial of every other person who points a finger at DOOM, Marilyn Manson, or gun control. My opinion has actually changed regarding DOOM in the course of all the reading I have done about this situation. I still am not going to let my 7 year old play it for a few years because of the gore, but I think it provides nothing more than a cathartic outlet, just as punching a pillow or a heavy bag is a similarly healthy outlet for that same aggression or rage. If I'm right about the mental state of the shooters, it is no wonder to me they were fanatics about games like DOOM. I'm thinking there were probably a good many people they WANTED to shoot, not the least of which is their own parents. As for Marilyn Manson, I think anybody that wants to look like a demon will probably spend their eternity with them, but I don't believe that music drove the kids to murder. Gun control? The kids were using weapons that are already illegal. Will we feel better to have more laws on the books that are either not enforced, or that we can say we COULD have charged them with violating if they had not blown their own heads off? Or is it just the point of doing something, ANYTHING--just as long as it's not looking at how my own parenting/lack of, and the hazing my own kids visited on the shooters contributed to this?
Your parents were just being parents. And THAT is one of the problems here. Too many people have gotten in the habit of finger-pointing, assigning responsibility, passing the buck... Too many parents think they can just neglect and abuse their kids and the school system should then undo every wrong anyone has ever done to them. It doesn't work that way. The schools were never intended to be surrogate parents, yet when the parents are not parents--who takes the first blows? The school.
Not all teachers and not all schools are prefect, but more often than not, it is the parents who fail their children as parents, than schools that fail to educate children.
Teachers almost powerless if parents are in denial
on
Why Kids Kill
·
· Score: 1
This, to me, is one of the sad parts of this whole thing. It seems like everybody wants to point fingers. Many doing the pointing have no idea what they are talking about. The police of Columbine have even been criticized for not moving the SWAT team in fast enough, etc. WHOA!!! Take a step back. In the first place, does it set off any alarms in anyone's noggin that a SWAT Team should EVER have reason to enter a school where some police officer's own children attend school?
Folks, please--before lambasting the school and teachers, talk to some. Spend a couple of days with some in their classroom.
My wife is an Elementary School teacher, and she comes home frustrated more often than not. Sadly, many parents do not want to hear that their little darlings have a problem, and threaten the school with a lawsuit for harassment or some other such 90's nonsense. If you have a solution for that, please share it with us. I can think of one regarding the parents of the Columbine shooters, but it's nearly as bad as the problem we are all trying to come to grips with.
I CAN say that I got a really bad feeling watching the interview of Columbine's principal. I would not want to have been in his shoes, but he seemed to have absolutely NO CLUE what was going on in his school. He claimed that NOBODY wore trench coats in his school "It didn't happen." Does he never step foot out of his office?
But please, cut the teachers some slack. My wife busts her BUTT nights and weekends planning and preparing lesson plans and projects, writing reports, goals and evaluations. And she does this while also taking care of her own 7 year old son with severe asthma. She spent nearly $5000 of OUR money last year buying materials, supplies and props for her classroom. This is money above and beyond the paltry $700 budget she gets from the school, and in addition to donations from some very wise, understanding and generous parents. And still some parents are not satisfied.
Folks, before berating the education system, go spend a couple of days helping your kids' teachers. Ask if there is anything you can help with in the evenings such as cutting out objects with scissors, laminating things, making copies, etc.
If any teachers out there think I am off-base please respond and set me straight, but I would estimate that 8 out of 10 teachers are spending their own money to buy materials and supplies for your kid's classrooms. You can ask if there are any supplies you can donate, then go buy them. To avoid appearances of impropriety, don't offer money unless you go through channels. This can be done as well. One particularly grateful and very generous parent donated several thousand dollars to my wife's budget at the end of last year by going through the school board.
I will go so far as to say that if you haven't volunteered time to help out or even just to see what goes on, then you have no business criticizing because you are clueless.
Slashdot Mirror
Wake up. Get real. The two are not related. Man has fought each other in war for thousands of years. It's probably some horrible gene or something--this terrible need we seem to have to destroy each other on fields of battle. Yet only in the last few years have we had kids going to school with guns and bombs to end their peer's lives. And I emphasize PEERS. We are all the same, regardless how we try to set ourselves apart in clothing, cars, trophy girlfriend/boyfriends, etc. I don't think High School years are easy for anybody. The "Nerds" and "Geeks" may all have poor self-esteem, but I assure you that those who have healthy self-esteem have no need or desire to belittle others, "Nerds," "Geeks" or otherwise.
Last, regarding "Why do adults kill?" I think it interesting that you ask that question. I was just wondering this morning if any of these school shootings happened before the "Postal" incident. I don't have the information, like a timeline, but I really wonder if some kid read the story in the paper, or saw it on the boob tube, and thought, "Gnarley idea! That's it! That's how I can get even!" Now I'm not saying that verbal abuse, hazing, harassment, or even rape are an excuse for murder... well, maybe rape, but this thing will never be solved until people get real and start to look inside themselves for how they contributed to this (I really wonder how many "jocks" have gotten away with raping or even gang-raping some poor girl through the years).
I would really like to know how many kids who teased, harassed, and belittled the Columbine shooters now wish they had it to do over again. Sadly, I think denial is in the minds of the majority of the "Jocks and bops" (whatever a bop is).
I watched the Dateline segment highlighting the victims with tears streaming down my own cheeks, but I still cannot know the depth of the grief of the parents of the dead. I say this because I want those parents to know that although I empathize with them and my heart goes out to them, I will be very surprised if any of them would be willing to admit that their child in any way contributed to the shooter's hatred and rage acted out that day. And I fully recognize that some of the dead probably never said a single unfriendly thing to the shooters, or anyone else for that matter.
I submit that Denial is the most dangerous and damaging threat to our kids in school...
Denial of the parents of the shooters when the teacher calls them regarding the horribly violent stories or artwork that little Johnny is doing, or the "I hate People" headband, or the website with instructions on bomb-making and hate industry song lyrics.
Denial of the parents of the "jocks and bops" regarding their hazing and harassment and relentlessly cruel teasing of those not as athletically talented, or gifted with such aesthetically pleasing facial bone structure (or blessed/cursed with the parental financial resources for plastic surgery for nose jobs, ear pulls and even boob jobs!!!)
And the denial of every other person who points a finger at DOOM, Marilyn Manson, or gun control. My opinion has actually changed regarding DOOM in the course of all the reading I have done about this situation. I still am not going to let my 7 year old play it for a few years because of the gore, but I think it provides nothing more than a cathartic outlet, just as punching a pillow or a heavy bag is a similarly healthy outlet for that same aggression or rage. If I'm right about the mental state of the shooters, it is no wonder to me they were fanatics about games like DOOM. I'm thinking there were probably a good many people they WANTED to shoot, not the least of which is their own parents. As for Marilyn Manson, I think anybody that wants to look like a demon will probably spend their eternity with them, but I don't believe that music drove the kids to murder. Gun control? The kids were using weapons that are already illegal. Will we feel better to have more laws on the books that are either not enforced, or that we can say we COULD have charged them with violating if they had not blown their own heads off? Or is it just the point of doing something, ANYTHING--just as long as it's not looking at how my own parenting/lack of, and the hazing my own kids visited on the shooters contributed to this?
I'm out
Wake up. Get real. The two are not related. Man has fought each other in war for thousands of years. It's probably some horrible gene or something, this terrible need we seem to have to destroy each other on fields of battle. Yet only in the last few years have we had kids going to school with guns and bombs to end their peer's lives. And I emphasize PEERS. We are all the same, regardless how we try to set ourselves apart in clothing, cars, trophy girlfriend/boyfriends, etc. I don't think High School years are easy for anybody. The "Nerds" and "Geeks" may all have poor self-esteem, but I assure you that those who have healthy self-esteem have no need or desire to belittle others, "Nerds," "Geeks" or otherwise.
Last, regarding "Why do adults kill?" I think it interesting that you ask that question. I was just wondering this morning if any of these school shootings happened before the "Postal" incident. I don't have the information, like a timeline, but I really wonder if some kid read the story in the paper, or saw it on the boob tube, and thought, "Gnarley idea! That's it! That's how I can get even!" Now I'm not saying that verbal abuse, hazing, harassment, or even rape are an excuse for murder... well, maybe rape, but this thing will never be solved until people get real and start to look inside themselves for how they contributed to this (I really wonder how many "jocks" have gotten away with raping or even gang-raping some poor girl through the years).
I would really like to know how many kids who teased, harassed, and belittled the Columbine shooters now wish they had it to do over again. Sadly, I think denial is in the minds of the majority of the "Jocks and bops" (whatever a bop is).
I watched the Dateline segment highlighting the victims with tears streaming down my own cheeks, but I still cannot know the depth of the grief of the parents of the dead. I say this because I want those parents to know that although I empathize with them and my heart goes out to them, I will be very surprised if any of them would be willing to admit that their child in any way contributed to the shooter's hatred and rage acted out that day. And I fully recognize that some of the dead probably never said a single unfriendly thing to the shooters, or anyone else for that matter.
I submit that Denial is the most dangerous and damaging threat to our kids in school...
Denial of the parents of the shooters when the teacher calls them regarding the horribly violent stories or artwork that little Johnny is doing, or the "I hate People" headband, or the website with instructions on bomb-making and hate industry song lyrics.
Denial of the parents of the "jocks and bops" regarding their hazing and harassment and relentlessly cruel teasing of those not as athletically talented, or gifted with such aesthetically pleasing facial bone structure (or blessed/cursed with the parental financial resources for plastic surgery for nose jobs, ear pulls and even boob jobs!!!)
And the denial of every other person who points a finger at DOOM, Marilyn Manson, or gun control. My opinion has actually changed regarding DOOM in the course of all the reading I have done about this situation. I still am not going to let my 7 year old play it for a few years because of the gore, but I think it provides nothing more than a cathartic outlet, just as punching a pillow or a heavy bag is a similarly healthy outlet for that same aggression or rage. If I'm right about the mental state of the shooters, it is no wonder to me they were fanatics about games like DOOM. I'm thinking there were probably a good many people they WANTED to shoot, not the least of which is their own parents. As for Marilyn Manson, I think anybody that wants to look like a demon will probably spend their eternity with them, but I don't believe that music drove the kids to murder. Gun control? The kids were using weapons that are already illegal. Will we feel better to have more laws on the books that are either not enforced, or that we can say we COULD have charged them with violating if they had not blown their own heads off? Or is it just the point of doing something, ANYTHING--just as long as it's not looking at how my own parenting/lack of, and the hazing my own kids visited on the shooters contributed to this?
I'm out
Your parents were just being parents. And THAT is one of the problems here. Too many people have gotten in the habit of finger-pointing, assigning responsibility, passing the buck... Too many parents think they can just neglect and abuse their kids and the school system should then undo every wrong anyone has ever done to them. It doesn't work that way. The schools were never intended to be surrogate parents, yet when the parents are not parents--who takes the first blows? The school.
Not all teachers and not all schools are prefect, but more often than not, it is the parents who fail their children as parents, than schools that fail to educate children.
This, to me, is one of the sad parts of this whole thing. It seems like everybody wants to point fingers. Many doing the pointing have no idea what they are talking about. The police of Columbine have even been criticized for not moving the SWAT team in fast enough, etc. WHOA!!! Take a step back. In the first place, does it set off any alarms in anyone's noggin that a SWAT Team should EVER have reason to enter a school where some police officer's own children attend school?
Folks, please--before lambasting the school and teachers, talk to some. Spend a couple of days with some in their classroom.
My wife is an Elementary School teacher, and she comes home frustrated more often than not. Sadly, many parents do not want to hear that their little darlings have a problem, and threaten the school with a lawsuit for harassment or some other such 90's nonsense. If you have a solution for that, please share it with us. I can think of one regarding the parents of the Columbine shooters, but it's nearly as bad as the problem we are all trying to come to grips with.
I CAN say that I got a really bad feeling watching the interview of Columbine's principal. I would not want to have been in his shoes, but he seemed to have absolutely NO CLUE what was going on in his school. He claimed that NOBODY wore trench coats in his school "It didn't happen." Does he never step foot out of his office?
But please, cut the teachers some slack. My wife busts her BUTT nights and weekends planning and preparing lesson plans and projects, writing reports, goals and evaluations. And she does this while also taking care of her own 7 year old son with severe asthma. She spent nearly $5000 of OUR money last year buying materials, supplies and props for her classroom. This is money above and beyond the paltry $700 budget she gets from the school, and in addition to donations from some very wise, understanding and generous parents. And still some parents are not satisfied.
Folks, before berating the education system, go spend a couple of days helping your kids' teachers. Ask if there is anything you can help with in the evenings such as cutting out objects with scissors, laminating things, making copies, etc.
If any teachers out there think I am off-base please respond and set me straight, but I would estimate that 8 out of 10 teachers are spending their own money to buy materials and supplies for your kid's classrooms. You can ask if there are any supplies you can donate, then go buy them. To avoid appearances of impropriety, don't offer money unless you go through channels. This can be done as well. One particularly grateful and very generous parent donated several thousand dollars to my wife's budget at the end of last year by going through the school board.
I will go so far as to say that if you haven't volunteered time to help out or even just to see what goes on, then you have no business criticizing because you are clueless.
I'm out