That fact doesn't change anything. Freedom or essential liberties are worth sacrifices. All you have to do is look around at other countries and see the injustice, corruption, suffering and cruelty their people are dealt by their "leaders".
Giving up liberties is a slippery slope. Once started, it will be hard to stop. I could argue that the current situation is already due to some slipping.
Giving investigators the "green light" temporarily and changing the laws so all future investigators will always have the "green light" are two completely different things.
You are talking about the former.
The post to which you replied was referring to the latter.
It amazes me many people I have seen make comments just like yours. If the laws are changed to make fighting terrorism easier, in the ways being discussed in our country right now, democracy will be dealt a HUGE blow.
The irony in the blow is that the terrorists will not have dealt it, we (our elected officials) will have.
re: no bit twiddling. You can. See the log* functions in Common Lisp.
re: pointer arithmetic. You don't need this. Why on earth do you think you do? Automatic memory management, and the rest of the language make this unnecessary.
re: being impolite and snobbish. You'll run into people that have those "qualities" in all programming camps. Why do you think they are singularly attributes of lisp programmers? Perhaps lisp programmers are a bit defensive about all the FUD non-lisp programmers spew. Ever thought of that?
re: free win32-based lisp. There are lots. See www.lisp.org.
For server side scripting use
AllegroServe, an opensource web server for Common Lisp. It's been ported to lisps other than ACL, too. (I don't have the links to those URLs handy. Can someone please post them?)
I can't resist either. The core lisp language could be defined in a less than 100 pages. The rest is library. If you had ever used the thing you feel so qualified to bash, you might have known this!
Yep, it enables easily-written self-modifying code.
If you can't see the futility of this in most non-AI environments, god help you.
Huh?? I've never written a single AI program in my life. Program and data being the same are good for far more than self-modifying programs. To name some uses: program analysis, program configuration (read and eval the data), and macros. The latter is probably the single most important thing in lisp. Unlike pattern substitution in most other languages, macros in lisp are really powerful.
See
this for more info on macros.
The most interesting thing about your ignorant reply is that lisp is most often used by HUGE projects. The teams that build these programs invariably say they couldn't have done it without lisp.
The first such example of this was Macsyma, built in the 70's on Mac Lisp, ported to the Vax on top of Franz Lisp (from UCB). Macsyma was an incredible large program for that day and time. It took hours to compile on a Vax. It was also considered an incredible advanced program for the time.
DEC even used Macsyma to validate new Vax hardware (like the MicroVax), because it was, simply, the most complex program that ran an a Vax.
Lastly, there are lots of corporate success stories. Check out
http://www.franz.com/success/ for data points on this.
One of the main reasons LISP is unreadable to outsiders is because of their choice to stick with such bizarre syntax...
First, you obviously haven't used lisp. Second, you have missed the entire point of the syntax of lisp. The syntax of lisp is the same as data in lisp, s-expressions. The function read can be used to read a piece of code or a data. If you don't see the utility of this, god help you.
I'll tell you why you see no mention of it, because the mere mention of it will rip at the very fabric of capitalism. The big megacorps that make DVD players don't want DeCSS to be legal (because they won't sell as many players, obviously). The US Government is too big business friendly to side against them, so they take the anti-DeCSS stand.
... Before anyone flames me to a crisp, I'd like to point out how bad
the I/O is in Lisp, and how hard it is to properly handle the myriad
possible errors a program has to handle gracefully when working with
humans. Also, most lisp engines I've seen are interpreted (save for
things like the Lisp Machine). Now this doesn't prevent you from doing
very powerful very high level things with Lisp, but for the most part
you can do them easier and faster with C, also it's nigh impossible to
do very low level things with Lisp (At least from with what's
available). Lisp is truely the language of the theoretical math major.
This is a typical FUD (Fear Uncertainty Doubt... often used by
Microsoft against Linux.... hmmmm, there's a parallel here) tactic to
bash Lisp. How is it, after 20+ years of compilers that produce
excellent code, idiots keep repeating the same crap?
OK, kids.
Here's
a script I run on my website each night to produce a
page which references files which have changed in the last day.
How would you write this in your favorite programming language? Don't
forget to have the program parse the page and insert the new stuff at
the beginning, because the version below does. Yes, you could hack
this with a pattern matcher. Gross.
Slashdot Mirror
That fact doesn't change anything. Freedom or essential liberties are worth sacrifices. All you have to do is look around at other countries and see the injustice, corruption, suffering and cruelty their people are dealt by their "leaders".
Giving up liberties is a slippery slope. Once started, it will be hard to stop. I could argue that the current situation is already due to some slipping.
You are confused.
Giving investigators the "green light" temporarily and changing the laws so all future investigators will always have the "green light" are two completely different things.
You are talking about the former.
The post to which you replied was referring to the latter.
It amazes me many people I have seen make comments just like yours. If the laws are changed to make fighting terrorism easier, in the ways being discussed in our country right now, democracy will be dealt a HUGE blow.
The irony in the blow is that the terrorists will not have dealt it, we (our elected officials) will have.
I second the request!
OK. www.orbitz.com, then new travel site that's spending lots of cash advertising on TeeVee. Implemented in Lisp.
Dude! Common Lisp was the first ANSI standard programming language (circa 1994, I think).
STOP THE FUD, PLEASE!
re: no bit twiddling. You can. See the log* functions in Common Lisp.
re: pointer arithmetic. You don't need this. Why on earth do you think you do? Automatic memory management, and the rest of the language make this unnecessary.
re: being impolite and snobbish. You'll run into people that have those "qualities" in all programming camps. Why do you think they are singularly attributes of lisp programmers? Perhaps lisp programmers are a bit defensive about all the FUD non-lisp programmers spew. Ever thought of that?
re: free win32-based lisp. There are lots. See www.lisp.org.
This is FUD, plain and simple.
How much time did you spend trying to learn lisp? Which dialect and which year?
For server side scripting use AllegroServe, an opensource web server for Common Lisp. It's been ported to lisps other than ACL, too. (I don't have the links to those URLs handy. Can someone please post them?)
Why did they try java, and why'd they stop using it? Just curious...
No, I said use java for the GUI. Use lisp for everything else.
Let's not forget: AllegroServe, a kickass web server for lispers.
There doesn't need to be. You can write all your your GUI's in Java and use them from lisp with jLinker (in Allegro CL).
I can't resist either. The core lisp language could be defined in a less than 100 pages. The rest is library. If you had ever used the thing you feel so qualified to bash, you might have known this!
How does your foot taste?
Huh?? I've never written a single AI program in my life. Program and data being the same are good for far more than self-modifying programs. To name some uses: program analysis, program configuration (read and eval the data), and macros. The latter is probably the single most important thing in lisp. Unlike pattern substitution in most other languages, macros in lisp are really powerful. See this for more info on macros.
It's really helpful when you add this flag to the end of your posts. It tells everyone you are narrow minded and should be ignored.
I learned lisp in a few days. I don't think I'm a genius, either. One prerequisite to learning anything is that you have to have an open mind.
Don't forget Allegro CL Trial Edition, which is also "free".
The most interesting thing about your ignorant reply is that lisp is most often used by HUGE projects. The teams that build these programs invariably say they couldn't have done it without lisp.
The first such example of this was Macsyma, built in the 70's on Mac Lisp, ported to the Vax on top of Franz Lisp (from UCB). Macsyma was an incredible large program for that day and time. It took hours to compile on a Vax. It was also considered an incredible advanced program for the time.
DEC even used Macsyma to validate new Vax hardware (like the MicroVax), because it was, simply, the most complex program that ran an a Vax.
Lastly, there are lots of corporate success stories. Check out http://www.franz.com/success/ for data points on this.
First, you obviously haven't used lisp. Second, you have missed the entire point of the syntax of lisp. The syntax of lisp is the same as data in lisp, s-expressions. The function read can be used to read a piece of code or a data. If you don't see the utility of this, god help you.
So, you think java is easier to read than lisp. Are you a java programmer by any chance, or do you know both languages equally well (or not)?
In the same way you know the content of a book by reading the cover? I'm not defending child pornography, but really, your assertion is stupid.
CLAM alert.
You gotta love a cult that uses FUD. Hmmmm, parallels between M$ and $cientology. Hmmmmmm.
One thing we could do is write the DA in the case and tell him what we think. Anyone have their name and address?
I believe this person could be shown the error of their ways by our community.
I'll tell you why you see no mention of it, because the mere mention of it will rip at the very fabric of capitalism. The big megacorps that make DVD players don't want DeCSS to be legal (because they won't sell as many players, obviously). The US Government is too big business friendly to side against them, so they take the anti-DeCSS stand.
It's not about free speech, it's about mo' money.
The MPAA understands this, too. I hate them.
This is a typical FUD (Fear Uncertainty Doubt... often used by Microsoft against Linux.... hmmmm, there's a parallel here) tactic to bash Lisp. How is it, after 20+ years of compilers that produce excellent code, idiots keep repeating the same crap?
OK, kids. Here's a script I run on my website each night to produce a page which references files which have changed in the last day.
How would you write this in your favorite programming language? Don't forget to have the program parse the page and insert the new stuff at the beginning, because the version below does. Yes, you could hack this with a pattern matcher. Gross.