as a senior programmer (at least in my firm I am senior) I disagree.
There are LOTS and LOTS of sloppy programmers in the marketplace. There is lots of room for improvement. I see programmers put code into production environments with out any code review by some one else and think there is nothing wrong with that.
As much as I hate laywers I think mabey it's about time to let some law suits come out. As a programmer I am willing to live under a certian amount of scrutiny because I know my work will pass the test.
Software has lived far to long under the "We ain't responsible for nothin" license agreement.
I remember the a plane crash where the investigation afterword found that a peice of steel was in the plane was heated too hot when it was manufactured. This made it weaker and below standards. The found the forgesmith that was responsible for forging the peice and fired him.
Same kind of thing happened to a truck liscence tester who passed a truck driver that didn't know what he was doing and killed a family in a mini van.
I don't want to deal with which hunts in my work place but its about time some punishment for bad work, either for bad management or bad programming.
Huge customer support. If we have problems with our Oracle database servers an Oracle support rep can be on site in a couple of hours.
Great backup, export, and import for enterprise level use. These functions are build right into the database. You don't need to buy extra software and it's multi-platform. Our company has half a dozen server operating systems and each server can back up table space from any other system. Heck I can do it at my desk top now while the server is about 900 miles away in another country.
I could go on about a lot of features in Oracle that I don't think are in Postgree. I am no Postgres expert so if you can prove me wrong please do. But from a large enterprise company standpoint it would be much better to have Oracle.
I think Postgres does well with smaller companies. Oracle does have a lot of overhead and it requires a good DBA to run one properly. If you running a live 24/7 environment with 5 parallel servers for redundency Oracle is a good choice. If you have smaller system needs that don't require a lot of bells and whistles use Postgres or MySql.
Just because they aren't in the show doesn't mean he's not a supporter. That's idiotic logic, "They are't at the 'xpo, they must be trash".
This doesn't look like a big hype news article. Just a note and Larry is saying, "Yay, it's better for us to run this stuff on Linux." I don't see any cheesy attempts to attach his name to linux for publicity sake.
"Good interview, I thought, he makes lots of good points. But the debate about it here has nothing whatsoever to do with what was said there"
Are you saying you agree completely with Joel's comments? I do agree with some of what he has to say but I wouldn't go all they way. Joel seems to be saying code re-writes are crap and it's more important to meet the deadline than get a good program out the door. That's where I take exception.
With your Goto example I agree, sometimes yes, sometimes no. But while one side says "NO!", Joel seems to be saying "YES!". There are posts that both agree and disagree with what Joel talks about. Have you read them? Or are you fixated on the kiddies posts....
"Eventually the code loses it's maintainability because it's so hard to read. "
This is very true. You may not be able to do the re-write before the deadline but if the software is a long term product it should be considered at some point.
Programming in modules is the best way to go and IMHO I don't know any group that doesn't do it this way. You can quickly re-write the different parts with little difficulty.
For what it's worth... I agree with the guy that re-writes shouldn't be done all the time. If your a manager and a programmer insists on starting from scratch it's a good idea to get cost evaluations and time lines for the work. However thinking you never have to re-write is going to the other extreme.
It's a judgement call. I have passed on code and programs to my boss that I know was messy but let it go because to start from scratch would take too long and wasn't worth the expenditure. Other times I did do the re-write and it save us time and headaches.
The website doesn't look like a news reporting organization. They may be more concerned with promotion that news based on a quick search around the site. It also seems more business oriented than programming centric. From a business perspective and everything Joel talked about was more around quick turn around and generating quick revenue. Making due gets your product out the door quicker and money from customers faster but it doesn't guarantee you'll still be around 20 years from now.
"Unfortunately, I'm faced with the same problem many other people are: use a package manager, or have a decent filesystem layout"
Do the folks a Redhat know about this issue. It could be one of those "We habe always done it this way and now one told us it was bad" kind of things. It seems to me if it made sense and someone mentioned it to them they would modify there package.
Re:Xbox is the only American made console.
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"Also there are other U.S. companies involved, nVidia and Intel. "
Intel will funnel the money to Asia as that's where it's manufactured (The CPU and dozens of supporting chips). I am not sure what nVidia does, but Flextronics who's building the Xbox is in Mexico. The cash goes from your pocket to Microsoft who pays Intel and Flextronics billions, who inturn pay the Mexicans and Asians employee's.
I not saying all the money will leave the country, but the "Buy America, Buy Xbox" does not pass the litmus test. About 90% of that money will leave the country.
"I said no thanks and walked on which is what I suspect is most Canadians will say"
I agree. I did some comparing about 3 weeks ago to purchase a game console for christmas. I wanted to get a look at the GameCube for nintendo but couldn't. PS2 was available, had everything I wanted, and I could buy it right then and there. No waiting. It was the cheapest of all three systems.
Re:Xbox is the only American made console.
on
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"Companies dont create a product to lose money. In time Xbox will likely bring MS a lot of revenue"
I agree, if MicroSoft manages to keep a market share in this they will in time make money. But I don't buy the bull argument of "Buy an XBox, support America" crap. For the next year or two that cash will go to Asia and Mexico.
Re:Xbox is the only American made console.
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"So you are saying products produced in North America don't have the same quality as those produced in Asia and elsewhere? I would beg to differ. The fact of the matter is the Xbox helps our economy much more than it helps Japan's. That is a huge change"
I think quality is independent of the region. Any region can produce crap and/or quality. But the money from Xbox is not going to the states. Since MS is producing it at a loss the money is actually going to Asia and Mexico where it's being manufactured.
And currently US car makers are in hot financial water. The 80's saw huge inroads to companies like Honda. But that's another topic.
Re:Green screen of death?
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"You have missed the point completely.
No, you have missed the point completely! In the PC world people have come to accept bugs and error messages. As a programmer it disgusts me that it's so common place. You don't get that in other areas. Would you get an error message on your blender, your TV, your VCR? They just work because companies put the time in to make sure problems don't occur. If they do occur it's incredibly rare.
The computer industry reminds me of the Car industry and planned obsolescence. People are shocked that you can create something with very little chance of breaking.
Re:Xbox is the only American made console.
on
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· Score: 2, Insightful
"The CPU is from intel, the GPU from nVidia, and the console from Microsoft. Support the U.S.!"
The Intel CPU is manufactured in Asia, the console was farmed to Flextronics and is being built in Mexico.
And to add another argument, is it really patriotic to buy poorly made products in your own country so you can reward people who can't do the job as well as people in other countries? The argument didn't wash with cars in the 80's.
"Since the XBox has a harddrive and an obvious OS, could it be possible to modify the code so that it could play PS2(PSone as well) games, among other consoles"
Sony wouldn't like that very much. Sony also has a history of suing anyone that trys to develop emulators to work on other platforms.
Re:Slashdot is a bunch of bitter geeks!!
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"Learn to think for yourselves and don't judge every product by simply looking at the brand name"
So give some logical arguments why Xbox is better and will get market share. Look at the arguments against it and come up with reasons to counter them. Your post doesn't have a wiff of inteligence in it.
Re:I think this article is pants.
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"Again, bullshit. Although the 62% figure is correct, with XBox and Gamecube basically tied, the reasons for choosing PS2 had more to do with "brand leadership" and Sony-ness than games. Games were listed as third in the list of reasons. Even then, it had to do with variety, not quality. "
You think the 62% figure is correct but doesn't make a difference. What planet are you on? With all that's stacked against Microsoft in the gaming console business, and all the market share Sony ALL READY HAS you think the Xbox will fly off the shelves? Your dreaming.
Re:I expect Gamecube to win this war
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"Ps2 beat DC with no good games, just hype"
Bull, they had the thousands of PS1 games and the ability to play DVD movies. It was the first downard compatible game system. That's what did it.
Re:Green screen of death?
on
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· Score: 1
How about making something that doesn't crash or fall apart at all. That happens a log in the non-PC world.
It's a different world
on
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· Score: 1
I am very anit microsoft but that doesn't mean my arguments are invalid. I still think Xbox has a long hard uphill battle.
It's a different business for MS. There not use to it. Sony and Nintendo are veterans and know how to compete in the console business. The Xbox may be a nice peice of hardware but that doesn't always sell. MS lovers have been harping Linux lovers about that for years.
If MS wants to get a peice of this market they are best to highlight the disadvantages of Playstation and Nintendo. Playstation has a lot of adult games. I would put out the message that PS2 has too many kid unfriendly games. Buy Xbox for more kid friendly games. That's how nintendo competes. Shutting of the DVD player unless you buy the remote is not good for Xbox. Pack more value for you dollar, especially in the economic downturn. I don't see Xbox doing this.
Re:Don't bash Freecell
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"You laugh, but Freecell is the only reason my wife lets me have a computer at home"
I admit it's one of the games I still keep playing time and time again. I just think it's funny, all that power and design just so folks can play there favorite card game on a new platform.
"I want to see a cheap keyboard and printer peripheral. And a cheap word processor (OS is irrelevant, as each disc ships with it). These could be great things. These might even prove effective office machines (new meaning to commodity hardware). "
This is where gaming consoles are going. I have argued time and time again here and other discusion areas that small console boxes will replace home PC's. Sony is gearing up to add hard drives. You can add keyboards, zip drives, and even run Linux on it. Why buy a $2000 PC when you can get the same productivity from a game console for a 1/4 of the price.
If Microsoft is smart they will ensure that IE and some basic office software get shiped with that sucker. Buy a keyboard and you have a cheaper mini PC.
Re:My take on the whole thing
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I don't really see this as a valid argument.
It's not only valid, it's the biggest problem with PC games. I spent years thinking I didn't need a gaming console becuase I had a PC. And I put up with constant bugs, patches, and upgrading on my PC just so I could play a game I just bought.
What sold me on gaming consoles was when the PS2 first came out and said it was downward compatible. I gave up all the arguments about why PC games are still good with my console friends when that happened. All the titles I play on my PC are on the PS2. I would like to get Mario games on it bo so be it. After over 10 years of playing games on PC's I can be free of the software driver hunt and debating buying a new video card just to play the sequal to a game I love.
If you think it's not a valid argument go and stand in an electronics store and as every body who purchases a console if they played PC games and ask them why they are buying a console. You will get the same answer.
some of us have put our hearts and souls into this thing So you work for MS?
the ps2 is a mess. it is a ridiculous and stupidly designed POS from the dev standpoint
The games look damn fine to me and work very well. Incredible graphics. Why don't you elaberate. Or can you?
The selection of ps2 games is comlpete crap
Many thousands of game titles for both I and II don't meet your expectations. And how many does Xbox have, or Nintendo for that matter. Do you actually get and venture into a store that sells games?
I can't believe people are just going to absorb this thoughtless withering criticism from a pinch lipped bitty like michael who probably doesn't even play games
As apposed to a foul mouthed bitter looser such as yourself. Get real....
Slashdot Mirror
as a senior programmer (at least in my firm I am senior) I disagree.
There are LOTS and LOTS of sloppy programmers in the marketplace. There is lots of room for improvement. I see programmers put code into production environments with out any code review by some one else and think there is nothing wrong with that.
As much as I hate laywers I think mabey it's about time to let some law suits come out. As a programmer I am willing to live under a certian amount of scrutiny because I know my work will pass the test.
Software has lived far to long under the "We ain't responsible for nothin" license agreement.
I remember the a plane crash where the investigation afterword found that a peice of steel was in the plane was heated too hot when it was manufactured. This made it weaker and below standards. The found the forgesmith that was responsible for forging the peice and fired him.
Same kind of thing happened to a truck liscence tester who passed a truck driver that didn't know what he was doing and killed a family in a mini van.
I don't want to deal with which hunts in my work place but its about time some punishment for bad work, either for bad management or bad programming.
Huge customer support. If we have problems with our Oracle database servers an Oracle support rep can be on site in a couple of hours.
Great backup, export, and import for enterprise level use. These functions are build right into the database. You don't need to buy extra software and it's multi-platform. Our company has half a dozen server operating systems and each server can back up table space from any other system. Heck I can do it at my desk top now while the server is about 900 miles away in another country.
I could go on about a lot of features in Oracle that I don't think are in Postgree. I am no Postgres expert so if you can prove me wrong please do. But from a large enterprise company standpoint it would be much better to have Oracle.
I think Postgres does well with smaller companies. Oracle does have a lot of overhead and it requires a good DBA to run one properly. If you running a live 24/7 environment with 5 parallel servers for redundency Oracle is a good choice. If you have smaller system needs that don't require a lot of bells and whistles use Postgres or MySql.
Just because they aren't in the show doesn't mean he's not a supporter. That's idiotic logic, "They are't at the 'xpo, they must be trash".
This doesn't look like a big hype news article. Just a note and Larry is saying, "Yay, it's better for us to run this stuff on Linux." I don't see any cheesy attempts to attach his name to linux for publicity sake.
"Good interview, I thought, he makes lots of good points. But the debate about it here has nothing whatsoever to do with what was said there"
Are you saying you agree completely with Joel's comments? I do agree with some of what he has to say but I wouldn't go all they way. Joel seems to be saying code re-writes are crap and it's more important to meet the deadline than get a good program out the door. That's where I take exception.
With your Goto example I agree, sometimes yes, sometimes no. But while one side says "NO!", Joel seems to be saying "YES!". There are posts that both agree and disagree with what Joel talks about. Have you read them? Or are you fixated on the kiddies posts....
Nice post.. I agree with you.
"Eventually the code loses it's maintainability because it's so hard to read. "
This is very true. You may not be able to do the re-write before the deadline but if the software is a long term product it should be considered at some point.
Programming in modules is the best way to go and IMHO I don't know any group that doesn't do it this way. You can quickly re-write the different parts with little difficulty.
For what it's worth... I agree with the guy that re-writes shouldn't be done all the time. If your a manager and a programmer insists on starting from scratch it's a good idea to get cost evaluations and time lines for the work. However thinking you never have to re-write is going to the other extreme.
It's a judgement call. I have passed on code and programs to my boss that I know was messy but let it go because to start from scratch would take too long and wasn't worth the expenditure. Other times I did do the re-write and it save us time and headaches.
The website doesn't look like a news reporting organization. They may be more concerned with promotion that news based on a quick search around the site. It also seems more business oriented than programming centric. From a business perspective and everything Joel talked about was more around quick turn around and generating quick revenue. Making due gets your product out the door quicker and money from customers faster but it doesn't guarantee you'll still be around 20 years from now.
"Unfortunately, I'm faced with the same problem many other people are: use a package manager, or have a decent filesystem layout"
Do the folks a Redhat know about this issue. It could be one of those "We habe always done it this way and now one told us it was bad" kind of things. It seems to me if it made sense and someone mentioned it to them they would modify there package.
"Also there are other U.S. companies involved, nVidia and Intel. "
Intel will funnel the money to Asia as that's where it's manufactured (The CPU and dozens of supporting chips). I am not sure what nVidia does, but Flextronics who's building the Xbox is in Mexico. The cash goes from your pocket to Microsoft who pays Intel and Flextronics billions, who inturn pay the Mexicans and Asians employee's.
I not saying all the money will leave the country, but the "Buy America, Buy Xbox" does not pass the litmus test. About 90% of that money will leave the country.
"I said no thanks and walked on which is what I suspect is most Canadians will say"
I agree. I did some comparing about 3 weeks ago to purchase a game console for christmas. I wanted to get a look at the GameCube for nintendo but couldn't. PS2 was available, had everything I wanted, and I could buy it right then and there. No waiting. It was the cheapest of all three systems.
"Companies dont create a product to lose money. In time Xbox will likely bring MS a lot of revenue"
I agree, if MicroSoft manages to keep a market share in this they will in time make money. But I don't buy the bull argument of "Buy an XBox, support America" crap. For the next year or two that cash will go to Asia and Mexico.
"So you are saying products produced in North America don't have the same quality as those produced in Asia and elsewhere? I would beg to differ. The fact of the matter is the Xbox helps our economy much more than it helps Japan's. That is a huge change"
I think quality is independent of the region. Any region can produce crap and/or quality. But the money from Xbox is not going to the states. Since MS is producing it at a loss the money is actually going to Asia and Mexico where it's being manufactured.
And currently US car makers are in hot financial water. The 80's saw huge inroads to companies like Honda. But that's another topic.
"You have missed the point completely.
No, you have missed the point completely! In the PC world people have come to accept bugs and error messages. As a programmer it disgusts me that it's so common place. You don't get that in other areas. Would you get an error message on your blender, your TV, your VCR? They just work because companies put the time in to make sure problems don't occur. If they do occur it's incredibly rare.
The computer industry reminds me of the Car industry and planned obsolescence. People are shocked that you can create something with very little chance of breaking.
"The CPU is from intel, the GPU from nVidia, and the console from Microsoft. Support the U.S.!"
The Intel CPU is manufactured in Asia, the console was farmed to Flextronics and is being built in Mexico.
And to add another argument, is it really patriotic to buy poorly made products in your own country so you can reward people who can't do the job as well as people in other countries? The argument didn't wash with cars in the 80's.
"Since the XBox has a harddrive and an obvious OS, could it be possible to modify the code so that it could play PS2(PSone as well) games, among other consoles"
Sony wouldn't like that very much. Sony also has a history of suing anyone that trys to develop emulators to work on other platforms.
"Learn to think for yourselves and don't judge every product by simply looking at the brand name"
So give some logical arguments why Xbox is better and will get market share. Look at the arguments against it and come up with reasons to counter them. Your post doesn't have a wiff of inteligence in it.
"Again, bullshit. Although the 62% figure is correct, with XBox and Gamecube basically tied, the reasons for choosing PS2 had more to do with "brand leadership" and Sony-ness than games. Games were listed as third in the list of reasons. Even then, it had to do with variety, not quality. "
You think the 62% figure is correct but doesn't make a difference. What planet are you on? With all that's stacked against Microsoft in the gaming console business, and all the market share Sony ALL READY HAS you think the Xbox will fly off the shelves? Your dreaming.
"Ps2 beat DC with no good games, just hype"
Bull, they had the thousands of PS1 games and the ability to play DVD movies. It was the first downard compatible game system. That's what did it.
How about making something that doesn't crash or fall apart at all. That happens a log in the non-PC world.
I am very anit microsoft but that doesn't mean my arguments are invalid. I still think Xbox has a long hard uphill battle.
It's a different business for MS. There not use to it. Sony and Nintendo are veterans and know how to compete in the console business. The Xbox may be a nice peice of hardware but that doesn't always sell. MS lovers have been harping Linux lovers about that for years.
If MS wants to get a peice of this market they are best to highlight the disadvantages of Playstation and Nintendo. Playstation has a lot of adult games. I would put out the message that PS2 has too many kid unfriendly games. Buy Xbox for more kid friendly games. That's how nintendo competes. Shutting of the DVD player unless you buy the remote is not good for Xbox. Pack more value for you dollar, especially in the economic downturn. I don't see Xbox doing this.
"You laugh, but Freecell is the only reason my wife lets me have a computer at home"
I admit it's one of the games I still keep playing time and time again. I just think it's funny, all that power and design just so folks can play there favorite card game on a new platform.
"I want to see a cheap keyboard and printer peripheral. And a cheap word processor (OS is irrelevant, as each disc ships with it). These could be great things. These might even prove effective office machines (new meaning to commodity hardware). "
This is where gaming consoles are going. I have argued time and time again here and other discusion areas that small console boxes will replace home PC's. Sony is gearing up to add hard drives. You can add keyboards, zip drives, and even run Linux on it. Why buy a $2000 PC when you can get the same productivity from a game console for a 1/4 of the price.
If Microsoft is smart they will ensure that IE and some basic office software get shiped with that sucker. Buy a keyboard and you have a cheaper mini PC.
I don't really see this as a valid argument.
It's not only valid, it's the biggest problem with PC games. I spent years thinking I didn't need a gaming console becuase I had a PC. And I put up with constant bugs, patches, and upgrading on my PC just so I could play a game I just bought.
What sold me on gaming consoles was when the PS2 first came out and said it was downward compatible. I gave up all the arguments about why PC games are still good with my console friends when that happened. All the titles I play on my PC are on the PS2. I would like to get Mario games on it bo so be it. After over 10 years of playing games on PC's I can be free of the software driver hunt and debating buying a new video card just to play the sequal to a game I love.
If you think it's not a valid argument go and stand in an electronics store and as every body who purchases a console if they played PC games and ask them why they are buying a console. You will get the same answer.
some of us have put our hearts and souls into this thing
So you work for MS?
the ps2 is a mess. it is a ridiculous and stupidly designed POS from the dev standpoint
The games look damn fine to me and work very well. Incredible graphics. Why don't you elaberate. Or can you?
The selection of ps2 games is comlpete crap
Many thousands of game titles for both I and II don't meet your expectations. And how many does Xbox have, or Nintendo for that matter. Do you actually get and venture into a store that sells games?
I can't believe people are just going to absorb this thoughtless withering criticism from a pinch lipped bitty like michael who probably doesn't even play games
As apposed to a foul mouthed bitter looser such as yourself. Get real....
Wouldn't that be hilarious. The XBox on Pentium three and the most played game is Mineseeper and Freecell....
This is a good question. I haven't seen anything about it. One reason I bought the PS2 this christmas instead of others is to play DVD movies.