"Starting from my original post I think I've done a pretty good job pointing out that unchecked capitalism has worse negative results for the lower classes, such as in Hong Kong."
If this is the post I remember, someone responded with good evidence of Hong Kong's prosperity, including the "lower classes", despite (because of?) the lack of the government setting the minimum wage.
"If pure capitalism is at one end of the economic spectrum"
Regulation is one thing, but meddling to the point of mandating "you can't pay him that much!" is a new level of extreme and unnecessary regulation.
"If pure capitalism is at one end of the economic spectrum, and communism is at the other end, socialism falls in the middle"
Socialism is on the end with communism. The two words are really interchangable. Check your Marx, and then check what the second "S" in "U.S.S.R. stood for.
"So if the people think CEOs shouldn't get to collude with the board members and give themselves unchecked raises and bonuses because that's money that could have gone to the factory workers, fine."
As long as "these people" making this determination are on the board of directors of that company. It is really no one else's business.
"So because government exists for the people"
Yes. This is why the government should butt out and leave such decisions as this one to the people involved. "The people" you referred to is likely really a code-word for the government, which (as per your desires) is acting in an oppressive fashion and meddling in private decisions with the justification that supposedly most people voted for this action.
"Nothing. Well nothing if you don't care that you will become a barbell economy with a select few highly rich, no middle class, and a mass of poor people."
All this from hiring the best person for the job...
"When you sit back and think about what would really happen if China annexed Taiwan as they have been threatening lately (since we are spread to thin to stop them), its very scary the kinds of technology that would absorbed by them"
I wonder what technology would survive this? From all indications now, the only annexation of Taiwan to China that is likely is one in which China destroys the place and then rebuilds it (or not) as they see fit. Many Taiwanese technicians would be killed or would flee the country, leaving China with the task of "absorbing" technology from erased or exploded systems in burned buildings.
"Mind you, can we cap CEO compensation to 10x the average worker pay?"
Why? Why not leave it to those involved to figure out the relative worth of the job? What next.... cap caviar at 10x the average price of bake beans? It is really not the government's business at all.
"I have read through your links. None of them have specific details about anyone is been forced to work for free in China"
The last link I gave is quite specific. "China's booming economy continues to increase through its use of slave labor or Laogai camps. Laogai means "reform through labor." It's a system of prison factories and detention centers set up by former Chinese leader Mao Zedong during the 1950's as a means to re-educate through labor and increase economic gain for the People's Republic of China. ". See account of Wan Guifu above this quote.
Typically, those who believe in mythic "chemtrails" as he does are part of the militia fringe of the right that thinks that Rush Limbaugh is socialist. I admit, I did not look past that one buzzword.
"Slave labour?? Where, who, how? Sorry to interrupt your China bashing frenzy"
Who is bashing the Chinese? The outfit running the vast slave labor system, or the one who points it out, out of concern for the Chinese who languish in it? Besides, there are two Chinas right now: PROC and ROC. Do you accuse me of bashing both?
As for references to the slave labor problem, go here,
This report, from Jim Hightower, also on the left.
Cache of Bob Johnson campaign site, right-winger. Relevant quote: "in dealing with the slave labor camps in Red China, we have to rmember that about 5% of China is in slave labor camps, amounting to 50 million Chinese working"
Indian NGOs site. See part about Chinese slaves making footballs(soccer balls).
"and there are still illegal immigrants in the southern states that work for a couple of dollars a day so that you can have those cheap oranges, water melons etc. The U.S. government knows about it, but do they try to stop it?"
So? This kind of low-skilled labour has a low value. It is not slavery. It is voluntary working for pay equivalent to the value of the work. Slavery means something.
"Did you copy it from somewhere? Possibly campaign liturature?"
Absolutey. I got it from Kerry's own campaign web site.
"George "We know where the WMDs are" Bush?"
Your attempt at partisan division fails when we realize that Senator Kerry was all gung-ho about stopping Saddam and his WMDs as well.
"Kerry wasn't perfect but believe it or not tax increases are necessary"
They are not as long as the government is wasting money. Start with the ridiculous overpay of the President and Congress salaries and other government officials.
"....and cutting education funding"
Education? How much did he cut? I looked into the claim of "underfunding" No Child Left Behind, and found a significant increase in money spent which more than covers the program.
" Bush's corporate handouts "
Which ones are you specifically referring to? The airline handout pushed through by Tom Daschle?
"we are still spending more than we take in"
Why not cut the spending????
"I have a plan to balance the budget without increasing taxes (and I want your vote). Drastically reduce in size and scope the Military"
The military is only a small percentage of the total federal budget.
The rulers still controls a huge proportion of the economy (an indicator of strong socialism) and tightly regulates the population, in a much stronger fashion than found in Europe. It is much more socialist than any European country.
""Slave labour"?....feel better...
How does the real existence of slavery make one feel good? Speak for yourself.
At last! The discussion has degraded, as someone has used a lame insult for their opponent. Congratulations, pavlov, you beat to the punch the right-winger poised to whine about Slickwillie and the Clintonazis.
As for your weak point, if Senator Kerry would have won, there would still be the same spent on Iraq.
"How do you think the USA became one of the worlds largest powers. cheap slave labour"
First, it should be pointed out that "cheap slave labour" is an oxymoron. Slave labour is by definition free. Second, the US did not rise to become a strong power until decades after it had eliminated slavery.
China. The only slave labour involved in the US economy is the slaves in China who make some of the goods. As for killing consumer advocates and reformers and competitors, last time I knew Ralph Nader was still alive. The Chinese "Naders" are in prison, dead, or speaking out (but only if they left China).
"Balanced Budget. Is this some magic noone understands anymore? It is *irrelevent* if you spend money as long as you take in as much as you spend. Period."
Kerry's plan also included big tax hikes which would have clobbered the economy and resulted in a reduction of tax revenues. It would have meant spending even more and taking in even less. So much for Kerry's balanced budget. Neither Bush nor Kerry wanted to do the sensible thing: cut down on the ridiculous waste spending, without clobbering the economy with greedy tax hikes in a backfiring attempt to get more money into the treasury. This time, Perot and Jim Sasser were not around to complain about the "dyaffycit".
"Wait until Indian software companies enter US market. Lots of shitty, poorly made software for the cheap."
Even if the slander against India were true, the software market is so much different than the chinese goods situation.
The difference? Software already IS dirt cheap. How much did you pay for Mozilla Firefox? How much is OpenOffice? How much is all that good stuff on sourceforge?....do you expect India to grab the market by PAYING us to use their software? That is the only way they can be cheaper than free.
Moving up a little in price, aren't those numerous $5.00 to $10.00 discount CDs of software found at so many stores already dirt cheap?
"a communist country is doing a better job at capitalism than...
It's very easy to be a successful capitalist if you build your success on a foundation of slave labour and kill those who speak against you. You end up doing a lot "better job" than the others.
"China can simply produce goods far cheaper than we do. This is simply an example of what happens when you have an overregulated economy in the US."
China, as a socialist country, relies on a lot of slave labour. This hardly makes competition fair. Mexico would be a better example for comparison: cheaper, but without slave labour.
Slashdot Mirror
If this is the post I remember, someone responded with good evidence of Hong Kong's prosperity, including the "lower classes", despite (because of?) the lack of the government setting the minimum wage.
"If pure capitalism is at one end of the economic spectrum"
Regulation is one thing, but meddling to the point of mandating "you can't pay him that much!" is a new level of extreme and unnecessary regulation.
"If pure capitalism is at one end of the economic spectrum, and communism is at the other end, socialism falls in the middle"
Socialism is on the end with communism. The two words are really interchangable. Check your Marx, and then check what the second "S" in "U.S.S.R. stood for.
"So if the people think CEOs shouldn't get to collude with the board members and give themselves unchecked raises and bonuses because that's money that could have gone to the factory workers, fine."
As long as "these people" making this determination are on the board of directors of that company. It is really no one else's business.
"So because government exists for the people"
Yes. This is why the government should butt out and leave such decisions as this one to the people involved. "The people" you referred to is likely really a code-word for the government, which (as per your desires) is acting in an oppressive fashion and meddling in private decisions with the justification that supposedly most people voted for this action.
All this from hiring the best person for the job...
I wonder what technology would survive this? From all indications now, the only annexation of Taiwan to China that is likely is one in which China destroys the place and then rebuilds it (or not) as they see fit. Many Taiwanese technicians would be killed or would flee the country, leaving China with the task of "absorbing" technology from erased or exploded systems in burned buildings.
Why? Why not leave it to those involved to figure out the relative worth of the job? What next.... cap caviar at 10x the average price of bake beans? It is really not the government's business at all.
The last link I gave is quite specific. "China's booming economy continues to increase through its use of slave labor or Laogai camps. Laogai means "reform through labor." It's a system of prison factories and detention centers set up by former Chinese leader Mao Zedong during the 1950's as a means to re-educate through labor and increase economic gain for the People's Republic of China. ". See account of Wan Guifu above this quote.
Typically, those who believe in mythic "chemtrails" as he does are part of the militia fringe of the right that thinks that Rush Limbaugh is socialist. I admit, I did not look past that one buzzword.
Who is bashing the Chinese? The outfit running the vast slave labor system, or the one who points it out, out of concern for the Chinese who languish in it? Besides, there are two Chinas right now: PROC and ROC. Do you accuse me of bashing both?
As for references to the slave labor problem, go here,
The same applies to US and European agriculture subsidies.
Please click here for links to reports and information. Is 50 million a large slave workforce?
Here are views from different sides:
UAW report, from the left.
This report, from a fringe right-wing guy.
This report, from Jim Hightower, also on the left.
Cache of Bob Johnson campaign site, right-winger. Relevant quote: "in dealing with the slave labor camps in Red China, we have to rmember that about 5% of China is in slave labor camps, amounting to 50 million Chinese working"
Indian NGOs site. See part about Chinese slaves making footballs(soccer balls).
Chinese human rights group site
Another Laogai article
Wha? Try a reference to something.
So? This kind of low-skilled labour has a low value. It is not slavery. It is voluntary working for pay equivalent to the value of the work. Slavery means something.
Yes, I was modded up by neocons, pink elephants, and the Illuminati. It is great that imaginary beings control Slashdot,
Absolutey. I got it from Kerry's own campaign web site.
"George "We know where the WMDs are" Bush?"
Your attempt at partisan division fails when we realize that Senator Kerry was all gung-ho about stopping Saddam and his WMDs as well.
"Kerry wasn't perfect but believe it or not tax increases are necessary"
They are not as long as the government is wasting money. Start with the ridiculous overpay of the President and Congress salaries and other government officials.
"....and cutting education funding"
Education? How much did he cut? I looked into the claim of "underfunding" No Child Left Behind, and found a significant increase in money spent which more than covers the program.
" Bush's corporate handouts "
Which ones are you specifically referring to? The airline handout pushed through by Tom Daschle?
"we are still spending more than we take in"
Why not cut the spending????
"I have a plan to balance the budget without increasing taxes (and I want your vote). Drastically reduce in size and scope the Military"
The military is only a small percentage of the total federal budget.
The rulers still controls a huge proportion of the economy (an indicator of strong socialism) and tightly regulates the population, in a much stronger fashion than found in Europe. It is much more socialist than any European country.
""Slave labour"?....feel better...
How does the real existence of slavery make one feel good? Speak for yourself.
At last! The discussion has degraded, as someone has used a lame insult for their opponent. Congratulations, pavlov, you beat to the punch the right-winger poised to whine about Slickwillie and the Clintonazis.
As for your weak point, if Senator Kerry would have won, there would still be the same spent on Iraq.
First, it should be pointed out that "cheap slave labour" is an oxymoron. Slave labour is by definition free. Second, the US did not rise to become a strong power until decades after it had eliminated slavery.
It simply is true. His budget plan involved spending more dollars than Bush. Check the campaign literature from both camps.
China. The only slave labour involved in the US economy is the slaves in China who make some of the goods. As for killing consumer advocates and reformers and competitors, last time I knew Ralph Nader was still alive. The Chinese "Naders" are in prison, dead, or speaking out (but only if they left China).
Kerry's plan also included big tax hikes which would have clobbered the economy and resulted in a reduction of tax revenues. It would have meant spending even more and taking in even less. So much for Kerry's balanced budget. Neither Bush nor Kerry wanted to do the sensible thing: cut down on the ridiculous waste spending, without clobbering the economy with greedy tax hikes in a backfiring attempt to get more money into the treasury. This time, Perot and Jim Sasser were not around to complain about the "dyaffycit".
Even if the slander against India were true, the software market is so much different than the chinese goods situation.
The difference? Software already IS dirt cheap. How much did you pay for Mozilla Firefox? How much is OpenOffice? How much is all that good stuff on sourceforge?....do you expect India to grab the market by PAYING us to use their software? That is the only way they can be cheaper than free.
Moving up a little in price, aren't those numerous $5.00 to $10.00 discount CDs of software found at so many stores already dirt cheap?
Sort of, except "unregulated" is untrue.
It's very easy to be a successful capitalist if you build your success on a foundation of slave labour and kill those who speak against you. You end up doing a lot "better job" than the others.
What is wrong with hiring better workers even if they are (shudder) foreign?
"and quit purchasing foreign tech"
Why not purchase the best, regardless?
China, as a socialist country, relies on a lot of slave labour. This hardly makes competition fair. Mexico would be a better example for comparison: cheaper, but without slave labour.