Seems like you have that backwards. The result would be increased spending on local talent, restricting the flow of cash out of the EU to Redmond. Programming talent in the EU are probably excited about the possibilites.
Does this include the choice to restrict choice? Thats a problem with absolute statements, they tend to blow up godel-like when self-referenced. In pragmatic terms, it parses but fails to produce a desired effect when run.
Its not as though anyone is suggesting that current installations would need to be migrated. Rather, that no new contracts are accepted. This means that the EU will be following the practice of American Government (and business, for that matter) in ignoring Vista. They would probably do this anyway. Now it serves a dual purpose.
The fact is that MS is the King of vendor lock-in. Agreed that migrating from MS is harder than migrating to MS. However, this fact alone might be reason to discontinue increasing reliance on their platform.
Giving up now. You frame the discussion to be, "Windows is whats best for me, why should I not use whats best." Obviously in such context you will never be wrong, since pleasing you has become the sole (and arbitrary) criteria. Sorry to engage you. You waste my time.
I sense a contradiction inherent to "effortlessly" being put next to "sniffs, hacks and conditional comments" in regard to coding around MS browser deficiencies. Doable, yes. Pain-in-the-ass, yes.
In terms of laziness, aren't you pointing at the wrong people? Choosing to code to standards should be the preferred method. Not implementing standards in your browser is lazy (or worse).
When you said "depends on performance" I assumed you meant both your (precious) time as a developer, as well as the run-time characteristics of your code.
I would suggest further, as well, that in more mundane fields, Gnumeric is both a faster and also more accurate spreadsheet. In a graduate Operations Research class there where some problems that where picked to give Excel problems while determining global maxima. Gnumeric dealt with them w/o tweaking, out of the box. The prof was amazed:-)
In terms of your experience with Linux, I only meant that the parent posting to which we refer was probably meant in good faith.
Some suggest that government is a necessary evil. I disagree because I have lots of faith in Rule of Law. However, stipulating that all governments do both good and bad, one could replace Microsoft with a Totalitarian regime, and Sony with a less than perfect Democracy, and suggest it makes no difference who one does business with because neither are perfect. This resembles what I've (tongue-in-cheek) nicknamed a nihilist argument in the past. Specifically, its only arbitrary if you flip a coin, or otherwise randomly determine your choice. Because one *is* better than the other ("because x isn't as evil as y" ), said choice should be determined on merits rather than arbitrarily.
Its certainly about determining which products meet your needs, but consider the bigger picture, too. Its not just one product you are purchasing, but a process of which you are a part. I would suggest that what might seem irrational choice to you today is perhaps merely the result of our two lists of which aspects we consider for the assignment of merit contains two very different lists of features. In other words: what you value and rank isn't what I value and rank, and perhaps some things I see as essential aren't even on your list.
First, let me forgive your sarcasm. You might not be used to rational discourse. It doesn't facilitate communication, however, and I thought it worth pointing out.
In reply to your query: Its simple. Its pragmatic because it works. Functionality matters. Being able to boot into Linux and run photoshop inside an x-window lets you operate in a manner that dual-booting doesn't allow. Its really just that simple. I view WinXP as just another library dependency necessary for whatever app I need, and after going "full screen" (which is really full window) it is just that: yet another app with strange but doable dependencies.
I have to admit OneNote is fun. I like tabs, I like being able to organize using containers w/in containers w/in containers. XML output makes it seemingly hackable enough at the file level, too. I admit freely I play with OneNote every 6 months or so.
I didn't reply to OneNote because I perceive (mistakenly?) that OneNote is a cool toy, but not anything that could be considered mission critical in any enviornment I am able to easily imagine. (Sorry to keep you waiting;-)
I've begun cataloging inappropriate use of terms like "religious" and "crusade" in hopes of building bias ranking filters. Your use of a highly laden term to define your sense of unbiased is most interesting. As is your case: if some needs app#1, and only app#1 will do, then what does os#2 have? If the wall has to be painted green, and only green will do, then what colors of blue are green? Framing a question that was is less than ingenuous.
"a lot of responses on this thread seem to view running linux as the final goal." No, that is the strawman arguement you've been trying to attack, and the fact that it fails doesn't seem to keep you from attacking. Case in point:
Consider OneNote or Photoshop -- if either of these applications are critical to you, some OS choices get eliminated. Just two random examples - how can you not take this point seriously?
There have been a number of responses that have pointed out methods of running Photoshop. The reason I don't take the point you fail to make seriously is because after being hit on the head with a clue stick, you continue to mutter the same incoherent statements. I don't take it seriously because it was once a problem, but its been *solved*, and to deny the solution is a solution based on criteria invented to support a conclusion rather than reflect a situation doesn't deserve serious attention. Please, get over it. Use what works. Use the best tool for the job. Stop eliminating choices for other than technical or pragmatic reasons. Get real.
Finally, a less than mandatory disclaimer: I've used MS Windows since version 1.0, doing upgrades all along the way. I do prefer to use Linux.
"Forcing them to find sub par alternatives to proprietary engineering applications..."
Don't know about you, bubba, but it surely seems to me the really advanced stuff isn't made for or on Windows. Maybe engineering is more "off the shelf", but in Physics and Chemistry (and rumor has it, applied and pure mathematics), this isn't so at all!
Visual Studio is one of MS's better apps, for sure. But its not that good at dealing with Python, Octave, Lisp, Ruby, or Java. Even when working on a Windows box, doing C++, its not my preferred IDE. I like Emacs using Viper for vi keybindings, and/or Eclipse. Oh, and no one I know considers VS to have a "magnificent" compiler, although the help system is decent enough. Really, as an IDE, it has Wizzards and intellesense going for it, and the rest of it is subpar.
In terms of the Gimp, I have to say that the interface is abysmal. To the point I avoid it whenever possible. My understanding is that photoshop can't really scale like the gimp, however. In terms of 3D, I think Computational Visualization. Things like medical imaging, molecular dynamics, that sort of thing. While its true limited work can be done on Windows, all the serious stuff is done using OpenGL based apps on Linux or Unix of one form or another. Again, windows won't scale to do heavy 3D lifting.
Vagaries of licensing! A friend from Oak Ridge National Labs vacationed here, and I watched him jumping through hoops with a MatLab installation on his Vista Laptop. He spent about 10 hours on the phone over a three day period and was sent installation CDs via next day rush twice (!) in an attempt to install past their DRM that just plain wouldn't work properly. They were very polite and apologetic, but the bottom line is that he spent his time dealing with a broken system instead of modeling nuclear reactors. I've had similar experiences with MS tech support trying to install their software, although admittedly not as bad as he had to put up with. License bullshit is a *major* reason for going open source!
switching from Windows on native hardware to Windows in a VM is not a solution if you are eliminating Windows from the picture
However, it is a solution if your intention is to reduce Windows and its not an all-or-nothing situation of eliminating Windows. You still have to have a license, sure, but your interaction (in terms of time (and frustration!)) is reduced to only the apps that require said interaction.
I'd suggest that pointing you to distrowatch was a way to make the various distros known to you, not so much a suggestion that you download from there.
The license does not permit you to move OEM copies to a different host.
And the sky is blue, and so what? Having "a few beige boxes running off-the-shelf XP Pro" in a shop is probably not done with OEM versions. You at least have to make an assumption that isn't warranted from the parent post.
If "my financial security depends on my performance", then choose a system that performs. This is why Mathematica benchmarks on Linux. This is why Computational Physics is done on Linux. Its a *performance* issue. To suggest that you choose software first, then whatever OS will run it, is ridiculous. You have to compare the app+OS to an app+OS. Failing to measure the result of the system as a whole is to measure nothing meaningful. Not eveyone gets a degree in Physics, sure, but isn't this *obvious*?
If you are doing anything remotely analytical (numerically or symbolicly processing intensive) which includes statistical analysis, by the way, and not just systems of ODEs and PDEs, then performance certainly goes to Linux.
Currently there is no problem with running Windows-only software under WinXP. Its not as though people are saying, "I can't use WinXP because my software is Vista-only." There are people who can't run WinXP software yet on Vista (third party Mathmatica extensions, for instance). Its looking more and more like the adoption of Vista is failing to the point that the concern you voice will *never* be a problem. Perhaps Windows 7 (remember the article that this is really all about?) will be like Vista in some ways. Perhaps it will be like Mac OS X or even Linux. Hell, at this point, it could end up being Linux or BSD based for all we *really* know. Vaporware is like that. So currently, and for the near future, your concern really makes a moot point. In the future, when MS writes yet another OS, it may or might not be adopted (wasn't long ago I never thought I'd type that!), and it may or might not have features pertinent to your point, and thus may or may not be a concern.
Right now, running WinXP on Linux in VMWare is a better experience than running it natively on the same bare metal. The upgrade is well worth the effort and expense if you have to use windows-only apps.
Your confusion between capitalism (which tends to lead to monopolies, and really is about wealth creation) and free-markets (which by definition has the inherent requirement of a balance of power and isn't about wealth creation so much as allocation of resources) doesn't help. In fact its counterproductive. People don't like to be told that there preferences are bad for them, be said preferences for drugs, or fatty foods, or encumbered formats, protocols and architectures. Be aware: patience does little good in a system where the advantages of increasing returns has already emerged. We are stuck with keyboards designed to slow down touch typists so that the keys don't jam. Still waiting? Ah yep.
Its really not a religious war. Its true enough, though, that business is war, and there is certainly a cultural and philosophical war going on, too. Trying to spin this with ill considered references to religion is a clear indicator of bias, and you should try to avoid that.
It is just as stupid to suggest that "all corporations are equally good/evil" as it is to suggest all political parties are just the same, or all systems of government are the same, or all people are equally good/evil. Some are good, some are evil. Get over it. Learn which is which. Anything else is just being lazy.
"relative ease of development, accessibility and ubiquity of the Windows platform"
Its ubiquitous, sure enough. Ease of development is pure bullshit, though. I'd suggest that accessibility in this context is a null term. (I don't think 1 out of 3 is really a passing grade.)
Some of us find on occasion that it is necessary to load WinXP in VMWare to run a Windows-only app. On a positive note, at least we have a stable, secure OS providing the foundation for our session. Additionally, it does my heart good to see WinXP relegated to a small x-window, where it belongs. Fitting, somehow. But seriously, if you absolutely have to some critical piece of software that can't be made available with Linux proper, then VMWare is a solution. At least you aren't stuck with Windows for everything. If you make the application fullscreen (which means it fills the x-window, not that it is fully full screen), then it just seems the app is just yet another Linux app (with slightly more convoluted action to jump to the other running apps). If this isn't an answer to your question, then face it: you don't have a question, you have a bias. No big deal. We all have preferences. But today the "critical app" fallacy is too transparently propaganda to be taken seriously. You can most certainly do it all on top of (as opposed to "under") Linux. You never have to leave Linux. At worse you have to view WinXP as a bizzare and uncommon dependency that certain applications require. At least:-) thats how I view it...
WinXP, at least, booted faster and closed faster and seemed *more* responsive to me using VMWare on top of Linux than running on the bare metal. Wish I'd tested that setup more thoroughly...
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Seems like you have that backwards. The result would be increased spending on local talent, restricting the flow of cash out of the EU to Redmond. Programming talent in the EU are probably excited about the possibilites.
"Restricting choice in any way is a bad thing."
Does this include the choice to restrict choice? Thats a problem with absolute statements, they tend to blow up godel-like when self-referenced. In pragmatic terms, it parses but fails to produce a desired effect when run.
Its not as though anyone is suggesting that current installations would need to be migrated. Rather, that no new contracts are accepted. This means that the EU will be following the practice of American Government (and business, for that matter) in ignoring Vista. They would probably do this anyway. Now it serves a dual purpose.
The fact is that MS is the King of vendor lock-in. Agreed that migrating from MS is harder than migrating to MS. However, this fact alone might be reason to discontinue increasing reliance on their platform.
You do it again.
"whine" - whatever.
Giving up now. You frame the discussion to be, "Windows is whats best for me, why should I not use whats best." Obviously in such context you will never be wrong, since pleasing you has become the sole (and arbitrary) criteria. Sorry to engage you. You waste my time.
I sense a contradiction inherent to "effortlessly" being put next to "sniffs, hacks and conditional comments" in regard to coding around MS browser deficiencies. Doable, yes. Pain-in-the-ass, yes.
In terms of laziness, aren't you pointing at the wrong people? Choosing to code to standards should be the preferred method. Not implementing standards in your browser is lazy (or worse).
None at Universities (or other institutions) whose user agreement precludes use of IE for security reasons.
None at Universities (and other environments) whose user agreements preclude use of IE within the LAN for security purposes.
When you said "depends on performance" I assumed you meant both your (precious) time as a developer, as well as the run-time characteristics of your code.
:-)
I would suggest further, as well, that in more mundane fields, Gnumeric is both a faster and also more accurate spreadsheet. In a graduate Operations Research class there where some problems that where picked to give Excel problems while determining global maxima. Gnumeric dealt with them w/o tweaking, out of the box. The prof was amazed
In terms of your experience with Linux, I only meant that the parent posting to which we refer was probably meant in good faith.
Some suggest that government is a necessary evil. I disagree because I have lots of faith in Rule of Law. However, stipulating that all governments do both good and bad, one could replace Microsoft with a Totalitarian regime, and Sony with a less than perfect Democracy, and suggest it makes no difference who one does business with because neither are perfect. This resembles what I've (tongue-in-cheek) nicknamed a nihilist argument in the past. Specifically, its only arbitrary if you flip a coin, or otherwise randomly determine your choice. Because one *is* better than the other ("because x isn't as evil as y" ), said choice should be determined on merits rather than arbitrarily.
Its certainly about determining which products meet your needs, but consider the bigger picture, too. Its not just one product you are purchasing, but a process of which you are a part. I would suggest that what might seem irrational choice to you today is perhaps merely the result of our two lists of which aspects we consider for the assignment of merit contains two very different lists of features. In other words: what you value and rank isn't what I value and rank, and perhaps some things I see as essential aren't even on your list.
First, let me forgive your sarcasm. You might not be used to rational discourse. It doesn't facilitate communication, however, and I thought it worth pointing out.
;-)
In reply to your query: Its simple. Its pragmatic because it works. Functionality matters. Being able to boot into Linux and run photoshop inside an x-window lets you operate in a manner that dual-booting doesn't allow. Its really just that simple. I view WinXP as just another library dependency necessary for whatever app I need, and after going "full screen" (which is really full window) it is just that: yet another app with strange but doable dependencies.
I have to admit OneNote is fun. I like tabs, I like being able to organize using containers w/in containers w/in containers. XML output makes it seemingly hackable enough at the file level, too. I admit freely I play with OneNote every 6 months or so.
I didn't reply to OneNote because I perceive (mistakenly?) that OneNote is a cool toy, but not anything that could be considered mission critical in any enviornment I am able to easily imagine. (Sorry to keep you waiting
"a lot of responses on this thread seem to view running linux as the final goal." No, that is the strawman arguement you've been trying to attack, and the fact that it fails doesn't seem to keep you from attacking. Case in point: There have been a number of responses that have pointed out methods of running Photoshop. The reason I don't take the point you fail to make seriously is because after being hit on the head with a clue stick, you continue to mutter the same incoherent statements. I don't take it seriously because it was once a problem, but its been *solved*, and to deny the solution is a solution based on criteria invented to support a conclusion rather than reflect a situation doesn't deserve serious attention. Please, get over it. Use what works. Use the best tool for the job. Stop eliminating choices for other than technical or pragmatic reasons. Get real.
Finally, a less than mandatory disclaimer: I've used MS Windows since version 1.0, doing upgrades all along the way. I do prefer to use Linux.
"Forcing them to find sub par alternatives to proprietary engineering applications..."
Don't know about you, bubba, but it surely seems to me the really advanced stuff isn't made for or on Windows. Maybe engineering is more "off the shelf", but in Physics and Chemistry (and rumor has it, applied and pure mathematics), this isn't so at all!
Visual Studio is one of MS's better apps, for sure. But its not that good at dealing with Python, Octave, Lisp, Ruby, or Java. Even when working on a Windows box, doing C++, its not my preferred IDE. I like Emacs using Viper for vi keybindings, and/or Eclipse. Oh, and no one I know considers VS to have a "magnificent" compiler, although the help system is decent enough. Really, as an IDE, it has Wizzards and intellesense going for it, and the rest of it is subpar.
In terms of the Gimp, I have to say that the interface is abysmal. To the point I avoid it whenever possible. My understanding is that photoshop can't really scale like the gimp, however. In terms of 3D, I think Computational Visualization. Things like medical imaging, molecular dynamics, that sort of thing. While its true limited work can be done on Windows, all the serious stuff is done using OpenGL based apps on Linux or Unix of one form or another. Again, windows won't scale to do heavy 3D lifting.
Vagaries of licensing! A friend from Oak Ridge National Labs vacationed here, and I watched him jumping through hoops with a MatLab installation on his Vista Laptop. He spent about 10 hours on the phone over a three day period and was sent installation CDs via next day rush twice (!) in an attempt to install past their DRM that just plain wouldn't work properly. They were very polite and apologetic, but the bottom line is that he spent his time dealing with a broken system instead of modeling nuclear reactors. I've had similar experiences with MS tech support trying to install their software, although admittedly not as bad as he had to put up with. License bullshit is a *major* reason for going open source!
I'd suggest that pointing you to distrowatch was a way to make the various distros known to you, not so much a suggestion that you download from there.
And the sky is blue, and so what? Having "a few beige boxes running off-the-shelf XP Pro" in a shop is probably not done with OEM versions. You at least have to make an assumption that isn't warranted from the parent post.
If "my financial security depends on my performance", then choose a system that performs. This is why Mathematica benchmarks on Linux. This is why Computational Physics is done on Linux. Its a *performance* issue. To suggest that you choose software first, then whatever OS will run it, is ridiculous. You have to compare the app+OS to an app+OS. Failing to measure the result of the system as a whole is to measure nothing meaningful. Not eveyone gets a degree in Physics, sure, but isn't this *obvious*?
If you are doing anything remotely analytical (numerically or symbolicly processing intensive) which includes statistical analysis, by the way, and not just systems of ODEs and PDEs, then performance certainly goes to Linux.
Currently there is no problem with running Windows-only software under WinXP. Its not as though people are saying, "I can't use WinXP because my software is Vista-only." There are people who can't run WinXP software yet on Vista (third party Mathmatica extensions, for instance). Its looking more and more like the adoption of Vista is failing to the point that the concern you voice will *never* be a problem. Perhaps Windows 7 (remember the article that this is really all about?) will be like Vista in some ways. Perhaps it will be like Mac OS X or even Linux. Hell, at this point, it could end up being Linux or BSD based for all we *really* know. Vaporware is like that. So currently, and for the near future, your concern really makes a moot point. In the future, when MS writes yet another OS, it may or might not be adopted (wasn't long ago I never thought I'd type that!), and it may or might not have features pertinent to your point, and thus may or may not be a concern.
Right now, running WinXP on Linux in VMWare is a better experience than running it natively on the same bare metal. The upgrade is well worth the effort and expense if you have to use windows-only apps.
Your confusion between capitalism (which tends to lead to monopolies, and really is about wealth creation) and free-markets (which by definition has the inherent requirement of a balance of power and isn't about wealth creation so much as allocation of resources) doesn't help. In fact its counterproductive. People don't like to be told that there preferences are bad for them, be said preferences for drugs, or fatty foods, or encumbered formats, protocols and architectures. Be aware: patience does little good in a system where the advantages of increasing returns has already emerged. We are stuck with keyboards designed to slow down touch typists so that the keys don't jam. Still waiting? Ah yep.
Its really not a religious war. Its true enough, though, that business is war, and there is certainly a cultural and philosophical war going on, too. Trying to spin this with ill considered references to religion is a clear indicator of bias, and you should try to avoid that.
Sony isn't well loved, but they certainly don't have the history that Microsoft has. Trying to suggest they are the same is ignorant.
It is just as stupid to suggest that "all corporations are equally good/evil" as it is to suggest all political parties are just the same, or all systems of government are the same, or all people are equally good/evil. Some are good, some are evil. Get over it. Learn which is which. Anything else is just being lazy.
"relative ease of development, accessibility and ubiquity of the Windows platform"
Its ubiquitous, sure enough. Ease of development is pure bullshit, though. I'd suggest that accessibility in this context is a null term. (I don't think 1 out of 3 is really a passing grade.)
Some of us find on occasion that it is necessary to load WinXP in VMWare to run a Windows-only app. On a positive note, at least we have a stable, secure OS providing the foundation for our session. Additionally, it does my heart good to see WinXP relegated to a small x-window, where it belongs. Fitting, somehow. But seriously, if you absolutely have to some critical piece of software that can't be made available with Linux proper, then VMWare is a solution. At least you aren't stuck with Windows for everything. If you make the application fullscreen (which means it fills the x-window, not that it is fully full screen), then it just seems the app is just yet another Linux app (with slightly more convoluted action to jump to the other running apps). If this isn't an answer to your question, then face it: you don't have a question, you have a bias. No big deal. We all have preferences. But today the "critical app" fallacy is too transparently propaganda to be taken seriously. You can most certainly do it all on top of (as opposed to "under") Linux. You never have to leave Linux. At worse you have to view WinXP as a bizzare and uncommon dependency that certain applications require. At least :-) thats how I view it...
WinXP, at least, booted faster and closed faster and seemed *more* responsive to me using VMWare on top of Linux than running on the bare metal. Wish I'd tested that setup more thoroughly...
But OS X is UNIX. It isn't Linux-like, it is that which Linux is trying to be like ;-)