NuSphere (or actually Progress at the time) paid for being part of MySQL's GPL announcement in June 2000 and for being able under the interim agreement to use the MySQL trademark in their product name in three limited forms - not for registering any domains.
They made three monthly payments and then stopped paying.
The sum they paid may sound like "loads of cash" to one person, but with some 30 people on its payroll, MySQL AB's cost level is much higher.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
ALWAYS OPEN SOURCE FROM MYSQL AB
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MySQL & Nusphere
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· Score: 1
I strongly object.
Firstly, even the commercial licences we sell come with an open source, and it is the same software as under GPL but just under a different licence. You can always choose GPL if you want.
Secondly, we have NEVER asked NuSphere to sign over any copyright for Gemini. The cross-licensing idea is a nice bonus, but nothing our company hinges on. And we can always do it with other providers of transaction handlers.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
Re:Mysql AB responding to the question
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MySQL & Nusphere
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· Score: 2
Thanks for the question, please just call me Marten, and here we go:
First I have to state that we do NOT on Slashdot "accuse NuSphere of criminal intent".
Regarding the money, please see http://www.mysql.com/news/article-75.html and the question "Did NuSphere pay MySQL AB $2.5 million?".
On 21 June 2000, Progress and MySQL AB entered into an interim agreement. Under the interim agreement, MySQL AB agreed to allow Progress to participate in the announcement that the MySQL server would be released under the GPL License. Specifically, the interim agreement provides that on the day of this announcement, Progress would make a first payment to MySQL AB and would announce this as the first of a series of total anticipated payments up to $2.5 million. Progress agreed to continue making these payments at the level of $104,167 through at least August, 2000. Thereafter, payments by Progress and other arrangements, such as further arrangements concerning MySQL AB's control of the quality of goods and services promoted by Progress by means of the MySQL (tm) mark, were to be governed by a further, final agreement between the parties. Under the interim agreement, Progress was allowed certain use of the trademark, to sell and distribute MySQL under the GPL license and to sell hardcopy printed MySQL documentation.
Some people have asked us what we need "all that money" for. We have about 30 staff on fixed monthly salary who work full-time on developing the software and our services in different locations in the world. Once or twice a year we bring all our people to one location for a staff meeting. We avoid costly office premises and advertising. The company has so far been profitable, and the profits have been reinvested into the company.
Thanks for the comment. We have changed the header of our press announcement to say "obscure mysql.org site" in order to avoid confusion, and we have sent an apology to the obscure.org site, who where kind enough to inform us of the unfortunate wording.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
P.S. And talking about "obscure", we are happy to note that mysql.org is no longer obscure. After our announcement NuSphere has changed the frontpage to properly identify them having launched the site. If they now renamed it "nusphere.org" or something else, we would come another step forward.
MySQL AB is rightful owner of MySQL server code
on
MySQL & Nusphere
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· Score: 1
We DO own the source code of the MySQL server (and you may know that Monty has programmed most of it himself) AND we have decided to license it under GPL.
Anyone following the GPL terms may modify and distribute our code and build a business around it without specifically asking us for permission. But we still own the rights to the code. And, as you point out, we own the MySQL trademark.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
P.S. To be absolutely clear, please note that I say "server" above. There are third-party modules that go around and in the server that we do NOT own. The transaction handler InnoDB (GPL'd and owned and trademarked by Innobase Oy of Helsinki, Finland) is just one example of such a third-party module.
I'm willing to bet that most of us out there had no idea that there was a possible GPL violation going on with NuSphere's statically linked library code. Meanwhile, the way they talk, it seems that mySQL AB was aware about this for some time. What were they doing? Waiting for a public fiasco such as this to happen before bringing it up amidst the mud slinging? It makes mySQL AB look just as bad for having let it got this far.
We did all we could to prevent the fiasco. We flew thousands of miles to spend 3 days in Bedford, MA to resolve our differences. We thought we were getting somewhere, but on the last day we were to our surprise served with a lawsuit that ended all talks. This was 15 June 2001. Thereafter we did our homework and made sure we knew all the details and that we were not making false allegations. As soon as we could, 11 July 2001, we sued NuSphere for GPL violation.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
Re:MySQL AB is Absolutely Right!
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· Score: 3
The interim agreement did NOT permit NuSphere to bundle the non-GPL Gemini with the MySQL server.
Now the interim agreement is no longer in force, but that fact is unrelated to the GPL violation issue.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
Re:Why are we bothered by this?
on
MySQL & Nusphere
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· Score: 5
- the software is available without registration, I just tried it.
NuSphere has fixed this issue after our announcement, and that is good.
- Michael Widenius from MySQL AB claims "I want to stress that to date, NuSphere has contributed nothing, no money or source, to the development of the MySQL(tm) server." See the original statement here. This is a direct contradition to NuSphere's claims...
A clarification: NuSphere HAS paid MySQL AB money last year for being part of the GPL announcement and for other rights, but it was not a contribution to the development of the MySQL server. The agreement under which they paid is now terminated. Our FAQ at http://www.mysql.com/news/article-75.html has more details.
- While I'd initially side with the MySQL AB folks, their press release is rediculous, as is their followup. This is not life and death, if they think NuSphere is violating the GPL they should have the FSF sue, or sue themselves and set a good precedent....
We have sued NuSphere for GPL violation.
- the software provided is under the GPL, a good thing
A great thing!
- Nusphere doesn't want to sign copyright over to mysql when that would mean mysql could then sell closed source versions for closed source products. That's their right, who cares it's all open sourced.
We have NEVER asked them to sign over copyright to us. We have in stead suggested cross-licensing whereby they can sell the MySQL server with Gemini commercially, and we can do it as well. Win-win.
- So before jumping around like chickens based an another overhyped press release, be it a corporation complaining about theft, or MySQL AB claiming all kinds of pretty serious stuff, let's let it simmer for a few weeks and then get involved.
Yep, we are handling the issue and trying to find a resolution. We also want to be open about it so that the community knows what is happening.
By defending our trademark we are precisely making sure that also those with "open source fears" can trust the product and the name and the company behind it. And, if it brings comfort, the copmanies that your colleagues might have preferred also defend their trademarks.
MySQL did NOT reject Gemini, did NOT ask for (c)
on
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· Score: 5
Please see our FAQ on the issue at http://www.mysql.com/news/article-75.html
We have not rejected Gemini from our source tree, and we have not asked them to sign over any copyright. InnoDB and BDB are other examples of third-party transaction handlers for the MySQL server.
In stead, we suggested to NuSphere a cross-licensing agreement whereby they could sell commercial licences of MySQL with Gemini and we could do the same.
We absolutely acknowledge that forks in themselves are not illegal at all, and that is fine.
I used the words "per se" because I see it as relevant in this discussion to point out that there are other things to be aware of when yo create a fork. For instance, product manuals often come under traditional copyright and are not free to fork. And trademarks have their own rules to be followed.
I hope this clarifies, and I hope you can agree that we are a free software company. Please see our FAQ on these topics that we published on Friday at http://www.mysql.com/news/article-75.html
Some clarifications: the agreement between NuSphere and MySQL has been terminated, and no rights have been sold (in either direction).
This does not prevent NuSphere or anybody from producing a product based on the MySQL server and in accordance with the GPL terms. In fact, we encourage the production of products that use the MySQL server under GPL.
We also encourage the development of add-ons, tools, utilities and other software that integrates with the MySQL server.
But we do NOT encourage GPL violations or trademark infringements which is what we are talking about here.
We don't mind people setting up their own sites that focus on our product, but we do mind if they do it wrongfully.
The name mysql.org is an infringement of the "MySQL" trademark of MySQL AB. The site does not clearly state its backers or the fact that it is not endorsed by MySQL AB. It says "Copyright (c) 2001 mySQL.org" but no such company or organisation is to be found. They require registration before download, which is something we would never do. They have the MySQL manual on the site although it does not come under GPL and is not free to distribute.
So it is no better than existing sites, it is obscure as to its background, and it infringes on the rights of MySQL AB. Don't those facts speak for themselves?
There is definitely a GPL issue just as you describe. In one of their products, NuSphere links their Gemini module statically to MySQL without publshing the source code for Gemini under GPL as they should.
But that product is not on the mysql.org site, and that's why this issue is not mentioned in our press release about mysql.org.
We have tried to get a partnership up and running with NuSphere, because we were enthused by the plans they had. But they did not live up the interim agreement we had, they used our trademark beyond what was agreed, and they didn't put Gemini under GPL as planned.
We don't mind competition or websites focusing on our product, but we do mind wrongful use of our trademark and other rights. They never mentioned to us that they were launching the mysql.org site. Our business model is based on partnerships, and we are getting new partners every day, and we don't see them as "the competition". -Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
1. We don't mind others distributing our code under GPL. On the contrary! But we require that all those who do it, do it in accordance with the GPL.
2. We don't mind other people modifying our software.
3. We don't mind other companies making money on our GPL software, but we do mind if somebody uses our valuable trademark without compensating us.
4. The mysql.org name is a violation of our trademark rights. The mysql.org site distributes our manual (which is not under GPL) without permission. The mysql.org requires registration before download, which is against our principles. The mysql.org site doesn't clearly state who is behind it.
5. We do not endores forks, but we acknowledge that they are not illegal per se.
6. It is fine to earn money from a product, and the product may be a fork of somebody else's work, but it is not fine to do this by using somebody else's trademark without permission.
MySQL AB has in its mission to "make superior data management available and affordable for all" and we have no intention to deviate from this! - Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
Thanks for that comment! (but we did not issue the press release of marketing reasons, but to defend something that we have been building for many years) - Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
I am Marten Mickos and I am from MySQL AB, the Swedish company that was founded by Michael "Monty" Widenius and David Axmark who created the MySQL product, i.e. the company that owns the MySQL trademark and the copyright to the MySQL server.
We DID talk to NuSphere earlier and asked them to give us the mysql.org domain name that they had managed to acquire. But they refused, and now they set up this.org site without our knowledge.
Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
Slashdot Mirror
NuSphere (or actually Progress at the time) paid for being part of MySQL's GPL announcement in June 2000 and for being able under the interim agreement to use the MySQL trademark in their product name in three limited forms - not for registering any domains.
They made three monthly payments and then stopped paying.
The sum they paid may sound like "loads of cash" to one person, but with some 30 people on its payroll, MySQL AB's cost level is much higher.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
I strongly object.
Firstly, even the commercial licences we sell come with an open source, and it is the same software as under GPL but just under a different licence. You can always choose GPL if you want.
Secondly, we have NEVER asked NuSphere to sign over any copyright for Gemini. The cross-licensing idea is a nice bonus, but nothing our company hinges on. And we can always do it with other providers of transaction handlers.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
Thanks for the question, please just call me Marten, and here we go:
First I have to state that we do NOT on Slashdot "accuse NuSphere of criminal intent".
Regarding the money, please see http://www.mysql.com/news/article-75.html and the question "Did NuSphere pay MySQL AB $2.5 million?".
On 21 June 2000, Progress and MySQL AB entered into an interim agreement. Under the interim agreement, MySQL AB agreed to allow Progress to participate in the announcement that the MySQL server would be released under the GPL License. Specifically, the interim agreement provides that on the day of this announcement, Progress would make a first payment to MySQL AB and would announce this as the first of a series of total anticipated payments up to $2.5 million. Progress agreed to continue making these payments at the level of $104,167 through at least August, 2000. Thereafter, payments by Progress and other arrangements, such as further arrangements concerning MySQL AB's control of the quality of goods and services promoted by Progress by means of the MySQL (tm) mark, were to be governed by a further, final agreement between the parties. Under the interim agreement, Progress was allowed certain use of the trademark, to sell and distribute MySQL under the GPL license and to sell hardcopy printed MySQL documentation.
Some people have asked us what we need "all that money" for. We have about 30 staff on fixed monthly salary who work full-time on developing the software and our services in different locations in the world. Once or twice a year we bring all our people to one location for a staff meeting. We avoid costly office premises and advertising. The company has so far been profitable, and the profits have been reinvested into the company.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
Thanks for the comment. We have changed the header of our press announcement to say "obscure mysql.org site" in order to avoid confusion, and we have sent an apology to the obscure.org site, who where kind enough to inform us of the unfortunate wording.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
P.S. And talking about "obscure", we are happy to note that mysql.org is no longer obscure. After our announcement NuSphere has changed the frontpage to properly identify them having launched the site. If they now renamed it "nusphere.org" or something else, we would come another step forward.
We DO own the source code of the MySQL server (and you may know that Monty has programmed most of it himself) AND we have decided to license it under GPL.
Anyone following the GPL terms may modify and distribute our code and build a business around it without specifically asking us for permission. But we still own the rights to the code. And, as you point out, we own the MySQL trademark.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
P.S. To be absolutely clear, please note that I say "server" above. There are third-party modules that go around and in the server that we do NOT own. The transaction handler InnoDB (GPL'd and owned and trademarked by Innobase Oy of Helsinki, Finland) is just one example of such a third-party module.
I'm willing to bet that most of us out there had no idea that there was a possible GPL violation going on with NuSphere's statically linked library code. Meanwhile, the way they talk, it seems that mySQL AB was aware about this for some time. What were they doing? Waiting for a public fiasco such as this to happen before bringing it up amidst the mud slinging? It makes mySQL AB look just as bad for having let it got this far.
We did all we could to prevent the fiasco. We flew thousands of miles to spend 3 days in Bedford, MA to resolve our differences. We thought we were getting somewhere, but on the last day we were to our surprise served with a lawsuit that ended all talks. This was 15 June 2001. Thereafter we did our homework and made sure we knew all the details and that we were not making false allegations. As soon as we could, 11 July 2001, we sued NuSphere for GPL violation.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
The interim agreement did NOT permit NuSphere to bundle the non-GPL Gemini with the MySQL server.
Now the interim agreement is no longer in force, but that fact is unrelated to the GPL violation issue.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
- the software is available without registration, I just tried it.
...
...
NuSphere has fixed this issue after our announcement, and that is good.
- Michael Widenius from MySQL AB claims "I want to stress that to date, NuSphere has contributed nothing, no money or source, to the development of the MySQL(tm) server." See the original statement here. This is a direct contradition to NuSphere's claims
A clarification: NuSphere HAS paid MySQL AB money last year for being part of the GPL announcement and for other rights, but it was not a contribution to the development of the MySQL server. The agreement under which they paid is now terminated. Our FAQ at http://www.mysql.com/news/article-75.html has more details.
- While I'd initially side with the MySQL AB folks, their press release is rediculous, as is their followup. This is not life and death, if they think NuSphere is violating the GPL they should have the FSF sue, or sue themselves and set a good precedent.
We have sued NuSphere for GPL violation.
- the software provided is under the GPL, a good thing
A great thing!
- Nusphere doesn't want to sign copyright over to mysql when that would mean mysql could then sell closed source versions for closed source products. That's their right, who cares it's all open sourced.
We have NEVER asked them to sign over copyright to us. We have in stead suggested cross-licensing whereby they can sell the MySQL server with Gemini commercially, and we can do it as well. Win-win.
- So before jumping around like chickens based an another overhyped press release, be it a corporation complaining about theft, or MySQL AB claiming all kinds of pretty serious stuff, let's let it simmer for a few weeks and then get involved.
Yep, we are handling the issue and trying to find a resolution. We also want to be open about it so that the community knows what is happening.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
By defending our trademark we are precisely making sure that also those with "open source fears" can trust the product and the name and the company behind it. And, if it brings comfort, the copmanies that your colleagues might have preferred also defend their trademarks.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
No, VA Linux did not buy MySQL AB.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
Please see our FAQ on the issue at http://www.mysql.com/news/article-75.html
We have not rejected Gemini from our source tree, and we have not asked them to sign over any copyright. InnoDB and BDB are other examples of third-party transaction handlers for the MySQL server.
In stead, we suggested to NuSphere a cross-licensing agreement whereby they could sell commercial licences of MySQL with Gemini and we could do the same.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
We absolutely acknowledge that forks in themselves are not illegal at all, and that is fine. I used the words "per se" because I see it as relevant in this discussion to point out that there are other things to be aware of when yo create a fork.
For instance, product manuals often come under traditional copyright and are not free to fork. And trademarks have their own rules to be followed.
I hope this clarifies, and I hope you can agree that we are a free software company. Please see our FAQ on these topics that we published on Friday at http://www.mysql.com/news/article-75.html
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
MySQL AB has NOT granted a proprietary licence to NuSphere Corporation for Gemini or any other piece of code. We have sued them for GPL violation.
Please see http://www.mysql.com/news/article-75.html for an FAQ on this.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
MySQL is GPL'd since more than a year.
See http://www.mysql.com/information/
For an FAQ on questions in recent discussions, see http://www.mysql.com/news/article-75.html
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
Some clarifications: the agreement between NuSphere and MySQL has been terminated, and no rights have been sold (in either direction).
This does not prevent NuSphere or anybody from producing a product based on the MySQL server and in accordance with the GPL terms. In fact, we encourage the production of products that use the MySQL server under GPL.
We also encourage the development of add-ons, tools, utilities and other software that integrates with the MySQL server.
But we do NOT encourage GPL violations or trademark infringements which is what we are talking about here.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
We don't mind people setting up their own sites that focus on our product, but we do mind if they do it wrongfully.
The name mysql.org is an infringement of the "MySQL" trademark of MySQL AB. The site does not clearly state its backers or the fact that it is not endorsed by MySQL AB. It says "Copyright (c) 2001 mySQL.org" but no such company or organisation is to be found. They require registration before download, which is something we would never do. They have the MySQL manual on the site although it does not come under GPL and is not free to distribute.
So it is no better than existing sites, it is obscure as to its background, and it infringes on the rights of MySQL AB. Don't those facts speak for themselves?
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
There is definitely a GPL issue just as you describe. In one of their products, NuSphere links their Gemini module statically to MySQL without publshing the source code for Gemini under GPL as they should.
But that product is not on the mysql.org site, and that's why this issue is not mentioned in our press release about mysql.org.
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
We have tried to get a partnership up and running with NuSphere, because we were enthused by the plans they had. But they did not live up the interim agreement we had, they used our trademark beyond what was agreed, and they didn't put Gemini under GPL as planned.
We don't mind competition or websites focusing on our product, but we do mind wrongful use of our trademark and other rights. They never mentioned to us that they were launching the mysql.org site.
Our business model is based on partnerships, and we are getting new partners every day, and we don't see them as "the competition".
-Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
1. We don't mind others distributing our code under GPL. On the contrary! But we require that all those who do it, do it in accordance with the GPL. 2. We don't mind other people modifying our software. 3. We don't mind other companies making money on our GPL software, but we do mind if somebody uses our valuable trademark without compensating us. 4. The mysql.org name is a violation of our trademark rights. The mysql.org site distributes our manual (which is not under GPL) without permission. The mysql.org requires registration before download, which is against our principles. The mysql.org site doesn't clearly state who is behind it. 5. We do not endores forks, but we acknowledge that they are not illegal per se. 6. It is fine to earn money from a product, and the product may be a fork of somebody else's work, but it is not fine to do this by using somebody else's trademark without permission. MySQL AB has in its mission to "make superior data management available and affordable for all" and we have no intention to deviate from this! - Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
Thanks for that comment! (but we did not issue the press release of marketing reasons, but to defend something that we have been building for many years) - Marten Mickos, MySQL AB
I am Marten Mickos and I am from MySQL AB, the Swedish company that was founded by Michael "Monty" Widenius and David Axmark who created the MySQL product, i.e. the company that owns the MySQL trademark and the copyright to the MySQL server.
We DID talk to NuSphere earlier and asked them to give us the mysql.org domain name that they had managed to acquire. But they refused, and now they set up this .org site without our knowledge.
Marten Mickos, MySQL AB