You're absolutely right: my opinion doesn't matter per se, but the fact that all the languages that have experienced big growth over the last decade have these features supports my assertion.
Well when you are starting from 0, even 1000 users is "big growth".:)
java hasnt quite managed to dominate anything -- let alone c++ -- despite java fanatics "dire warnings" to the contrary.
if you really think buzzwords define a practical/usable language, then why hasn't ruby taken over the world?
My biggest gripes with xcode are that it's incredibly fragile and unstable. It's not fun to be in the middle of working on something, go to a menu to add a file to the project or change a project property and the thing dies with an internal error.
Or try to build a project and the xcode gcc wrapper bombs out with an internal error.
Even barring that, the ui is terrible, as you pointed out.
I gave up and ended up using pico and scons.
Too bad metrowerks slit their own throat when they sold off their x86 compiler. codewarrior for osx is basically dead now:-(
Major gripe: coding for objc/cocoa locks you into the osx platform and guarantees your application isn't portable. not a lot of developers like this level of risk, especially on a platform with a market as tiny as apple.
Another gripe: there's no way to cross compile osx target from linux. I can cross compile just about any target from linux except osx, even win32 (APIs and all). Thanks apple.
Well, you made the claim that ADA is unnecessarily complex, so don't be suprised if I don't take the claim seriously without supporting evidence.
Just because you think a language without GC or reflection isn't a "serious contender" for being a modern mainstream language doesn't mean it's true. Any self appointed arbiter of The One True Language can throw up whatever roadblocks they like as reasons why some specific language can't possibly compete.
You remind me of the java fanatics from 1995 making "dire predictions" that C++ was "doomed to extinction within a decade" because it didn't have x or y or z.
Continue holding out for The One Hammer(tm) which will turn all problem domains into Nails(tm). I think you'll be waiting quite a while.
The rest of us will continue on without you thank you very much:-)
Then why in hell are you considering that level of ADC membership?
Because I am not. I was refuting the parent poster's claim that microsoft charges and arm and a leg for developer membership and tools while apple does not.
MS doesn't have to subsidize hardware purchases; PC hardware generally isn't overpriced like apple hardware is.
It is surely verbose, but this does not mean it is complex. and if you criticize ada as "complex", then your analysis of java must be absolutely scathing.
I think it would be batch compiled, safe (unless you use an explicit escape hatch), efficient, and usable by current mainstream programmers. It would also have a small, streamlined standard library.
that's just the nextstep classes (NS*). none of cocoa. if you target gnustep, you give up cocoa and all the osx "magic" that goes with it, because cocoa is not portable.
even "crippled", it has miles more functionality than xcode.
it's certainly more stable than xcode by far.
it's a much better ide than anything on linux (sadly). and yes i have tried them all.
metrowerks codewarrior is the only thing which comes close. and metrowerks sealed their fate (at least on osx) when they sold off their x86 c compiler.
one other thing. i can cross compile on linux targeting win32 with mingw. this is incredibly convenient and a major time saver. i can build multiple targets (linux/win32) from one devel machine.
there's no way to cross compile for osx. so much for flexibility? bah humbug.
Your mistake is in assuming that Apple is desparate for Win32 developers, which it is not. They want control over their platform as much as Microsoft wants control over theirs.
Thats the problem though. By not wooing developers they dont get the apps -- or worse, they drive developers _away_ from apple to other platforms, as has happened numerous times.
It's a common complaint of apple users who we service at work. Mac apps are often hard to find.
It's often easier to find apps for linux than for osx. That says a lot.
Maybe osx is an uber platform for developers, but it sucks for end users. And since end users drive the economic viability of a platform, it's a vicious circle if you aren't courting new developers and growing the platform. Status quo is not growth.
I worked with Id and Aspyr to port Enemy Territory to OSX. It hovers around #4 or #5 on the top most popular online FPS. You know how many mac users there are? I can count them on one hand. There are orders of magnitude more linux users.
Many apple devs I talk to express the same frustration. Apple is not doing anything to grow the platform. Pretty soon some of them are going to be ex-apple-devs. Because the platform is economically terrible develop for.
The platform will not be attractive for new developers until it is simple and easy to port to. And that won't happen until apple abandons this objc/cocoa-centric worldview.
Apple's "our way or the highway" attitude is annoying. carbon is grudgingly provided for "those delusional c++ developers who refuse to walk the enlightened path of objc", but it is a second class citizen compared to cocoa, no matter how much apple waves their hands to the contrary.
the problem here is that apple's obsession with objc means c++ is neglected, and it makes porting applications to osx a major pita (it doesn't help that carbon's api is wildly different from anything unix or win32 either.)
apple is spending all their time and effort preaching to the choir. they aren't doing enough to get new converts. and objc/cocoa simply isn't the way to do it.
MSDN membership is comparable to the price of ADC, when you compare the same ADC and MSDN levels. (msdn level 1 costs $500, level 2 costs around $1500).
one really annoying thing about apple -- I can use the latest versions of microsoft visual c on my clunky old W2K installation just fine (no way in hell am i "upgrading" to xp!). however apple's latest xcode requires me to upgrade osx -- it won't install on osx 10.3.9. it will only install on osx 10.4, and i can't see any good reason for it. this means for apple, i have to shell out $130 just to be able to upgrade xcode.
What GC does do is add uncertainty to scheduling of realtime apps. This is a focus of much research in GC, because right now it's a showstopper which is preventing some languages from being used in realtime applications.
GC today is much better than say 10 years ago when java was new, but it's a fundamental problem that is _still_ being worked on.
xcode is a bad example -- it is notoriously fragile. losing work from the xcode ui going poof in the middle of a session is not fun. neither is the xcode wrapper around gcc when it dies with internal errors.
porting to osx was a real chore, far more than porting to win32. that just doesn't seem right somehow:-(
then there are silly things in osx like linking a character based application vs carbonlib results in an application which refuses to run via remote ssh session unless a user is logged into the gui (carbonlib wants to access the gui even if the application doesnt). apple still hasnt heard of headless servers or something:-):-(
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You're absolutely right: my opinion doesn't matter per se, but the fact that all the languages that have experienced big growth over the last decade have these features supports my assertion.
:)
Well when you are starting from 0, even 1000 users is "big growth".
java hasnt quite managed to dominate anything -- let alone c++ -- despite java fanatics "dire warnings" to the contrary.
if you really think buzzwords define a practical/usable language, then why hasn't ruby taken over the world?
My biggest gripes with xcode are that it's incredibly fragile and unstable. It's not fun to be in the middle of working on something, go to a menu to add a file to the project or change a project property and the thing dies with an internal error.
:-(
Or try to build a project and the xcode gcc wrapper bombs out with an internal error.
Even barring that, the ui is terrible, as you pointed out.
I gave up and ended up using pico and scons.
Too bad metrowerks slit their own throat when they sold off their x86 compiler. codewarrior for osx is basically dead now
Major gripe: coding for objc/cocoa locks you into the osx platform and guarantees your application isn't portable. not a lot of developers like this level of risk, especially on a platform with a market as tiny as apple.
Another gripe: there's no way to cross compile osx target from linux. I can cross compile just about any target from linux except osx, even win32 (APIs and all). Thanks apple.
Well, you made the claim that ADA is unnecessarily complex, so don't be suprised if I don't take the claim seriously without supporting evidence.
:-)
Just because you think a language without GC or reflection isn't a "serious contender" for being a modern mainstream language doesn't mean it's true. Any self appointed arbiter of The One True Language can throw up whatever roadblocks they like as reasons why some specific language can't possibly compete.
You remind me of the java fanatics from 1995 making "dire predictions" that C++ was "doomed to extinction within a decade" because it didn't have x or y or z.
Continue holding out for The One Hammer(tm) which will turn all problem domains into Nails(tm). I think you'll be waiting quite a while.
The rest of us will continue on without you thank you very much
Then why in hell are you considering that level of ADC membership?
Because I am not. I was refuting the parent poster's claim that microsoft charges and arm and a leg for developer membership and tools while apple does not.
MS doesn't have to subsidize hardware purchases; PC hardware generally isn't overpriced like apple hardware is.
How exactly is it unnecessarily complex?
It is surely verbose, but this does not mean it is complex. and if you criticize ada as "complex", then your analysis of java must be absolutely scathing.
I think it would be batch compiled, safe (unless you use an explicit escape hatch), efficient, and usable by current mainstream programmers. It would also have a small, streamlined standard library.
I think you just described ADA.
developers are not made of money (which i believe, was the point behind developer discounts).
the stability comment comes from porting enemy territory (and other stuff) to osx.
xcode ui blew up all the time, and the xcode wrapper around gcc would die all the time with internal errors.
in the end i used pico and scons, because i was tired of losing work from xcode blowing up on me.
fwiw my contacts at id software had similar comments about xcode. "doggie poo" was the most common.
most longterm mac developers i know prefer codewarrior, too bad it's all but dead now.
that's just the nextstep classes (NS*). none of cocoa. if you target gnustep, you give up cocoa and all the osx "magic" that goes with it, because cocoa is not portable.
you'd be better off using qt.
may you die a thousand deaths in parenthesis hell.
but it all started with fortran.
even "crippled", it has miles more functionality than xcode.
it's certainly more stable than xcode by far.
it's a much better ide than anything on linux (sadly). and yes i have tried them all.
metrowerks codewarrior is the only thing which comes close. and metrowerks sealed their fate (at least on osx) when they sold off their x86 c compiler.
one other thing. i can cross compile on linux targeting win32 with mingw. this is incredibly convenient and a major time saver. i can build multiple targets (linux/win32) from one devel machine.
there's no way to cross compile for osx. so much for flexibility? bah humbug.
Your mistake is in assuming that Apple is desparate for Win32 developers, which it is not. They want control over their platform as much as Microsoft wants control over theirs.
Thats the problem though. By not wooing developers they dont get the apps -- or worse, they drive developers _away_ from apple to other platforms, as has happened numerous times.
It's a common complaint of apple users who we service at work. Mac apps are often hard to find.
It's often easier to find apps for linux than for osx. That says a lot.
Maybe osx is an uber platform for developers, but it sucks for end users. And since end users drive the economic viability of a platform, it's a vicious circle if you aren't courting new developers and growing the platform. Status quo is not growth.
I worked with Id and Aspyr to port Enemy Territory to OSX. It hovers around #4 or #5 on the top most popular online FPS. You know how many mac users there are? I can count them on one hand. There are orders of magnitude more linux users.
Many apple devs I talk to express the same frustration. Apple is not doing anything to grow the platform. Pretty soon some of them are going to be ex-apple-devs. Because the platform is economically terrible develop for.
The platform will not be attractive for new developers until it is simple and easy to port to. And that won't happen until apple abandons this objc/cocoa-centric worldview.
Good luck finding any bigger discounts on them.
Well yeah, this is the other major problem with apple. The core hardware is single-sourced.
wow with an ADC membership I get a whole $20 off a mac mini, $100 off an ibook, or $130 off an imac. color me impressed.
the problems for mac application development is this:
1) writing in objc guarantees your application will be osx-only. try porting an osx objc application to win32/linux? no chance in hell.
2) even with c++, the carbon api is so radically different from linux/win32 to make porting a major pita.
by focusing so much effort on objc/cocoa, apple are artificially limiting their audience and markets.
in essence, apple is busy preaching to the choir when apple should be trying to get converts instead.
pico > xcode
really, i got tired of all the crashes. edit project properties in the ui, boom. internal error. build project. boom. internal error.
i ended up writing everything in pico and using scons for builds. no boom.
Java is a bloated P.O.S., but Java is not representative of garbage collected or safe languages.
Shhh. Don't tell sun, they'll have you lynched. That's heresy round there.
Just curious what you think the end all to all GC/safe languages is?
Nice strawman.
You'll notice he never claimed java and c# weren't popular. Or maybe you won't notice since you obviously can't read.
Apple's "our way or the highway" attitude is annoying. carbon is grudgingly provided for "those delusional c++ developers who refuse to walk the enlightened path of objc", but it is a second class citizen compared to cocoa, no matter how much apple waves their hands to the contrary.
the problem here is that apple's obsession with objc means c++ is neglected, and it makes porting applications to osx a major pita (it doesn't help that carbon's api is wildly different from anything unix or win32 either.)
apple is spending all their time and effort preaching to the choir. they aren't doing enough to get new converts. and objc/cocoa simply isn't the way to do it.
i hate m$ as much as the next /.'er, but you're wrong on both counts.
MS gives theirs away for free, too.
MSDN membership is comparable to the price of ADC, when you compare the same ADC and MSDN levels. (msdn level 1 costs $500, level 2 costs around $1500).
one really annoying thing about apple -- I can use the latest versions of microsoft visual c on my clunky old W2K installation just fine (no way in hell am i "upgrading" to xp!). however apple's latest xcode requires me to upgrade osx -- it won't install on osx 10.3.9. it will only install on osx 10.4, and i can't see any good reason for it. this means for apple, i have to shell out $130 just to be able to upgrade xcode.
What GC does do is add uncertainty to scheduling of realtime apps. This is a focus of much research in GC, because right now it's a showstopper which is preventing some languages from being used in realtime applications.
GC today is much better than say 10 years ago when java was new, but it's a fundamental problem that is _still_ being worked on.
xcode is a bad example -- it is notoriously fragile. losing work from the xcode ui going poof in the middle of a session is not fun. neither is the xcode wrapper around gcc when it dies with internal errors.
:-(
:-) :-(
porting to osx was a real chore, far more than porting to win32. that just doesn't seem right somehow
then there are silly things in osx like linking a character based application vs carbonlib results in an application which refuses to run via remote ssh session unless a user is logged into the gui (carbonlib wants to access the gui even if the application doesnt). apple still hasnt heard of headless servers or something
Reviews are always subjective. Someone is always going to bitch about the results, especially on /.
So write your own review then. We're waiting.
sqlite has no network support, oracle postgresql mysql db2 and everything else in the entire universe does.
to many this is a showstopper and not a trivial fix. the network wrapper is not a fix, it's a band-aid.
this database elitism smacks of *bsd vs linux zealotry.