Everything you said IS true. And YES, doing the same thing in c/c++ requires more discipline, but then, when did this become about lowering the bar constantly?
I thought we were supposed to master our art right into the very electrons if necessary and provide industrial-strength, efficient solutions.
Sometimes I think the.COM boom (I equate the PC revolution to it, possibly wrongly) was a curse.
I have 20+ years of programming experience, you see. The reason I say I have 15 is because at the beginning there, it was incredibly hard to find a job. Jobs were very scarce.
When things boomed, it brought another effect; people (managers, executives and the like) looked for the easy way out. Faced with even more opportunities, but less programmers, the result was the bar being lowered and all these toy languages being invented.
I'm not saying you can't do good things in Java, but it's like scratching your belly-button while wearing boxing-gloves.
A decent c/c++ programmer will get you the same result, and it'll be leaner in its resource requirements, faster in execution, etc...
Why lower the bar more and introduce even more noise? Humans have a tendency to let things slide until there's a crisis.
The solution isn't EASIER languages, it's getting the young people who really feel like it's their path to ramp up with the knowledge they need.
Where are the apprenticeships? Back in the day, you were an apprentice for a long time BEFORE you got to touch production-level code.
Now, if you've got six months scholastic training in Java and are willing to work for peanuts, you can get a job writing production code in any java shop.
Don't you see where this is headed?
Soon it'll be a lot like newspeak (1984):
More and more, complex ideas will be made obsolete by new programming techniques, developers will get lazier and lazier. Knowledge will be forgotten.
When it will all break down, there'll be no one that remembers how anything works.
I programmed professionally for two years in Java.
I DIDN'T drop c/c++, because I found Java to be a toy language and really bad at interfacing with the real world. Hardware, real-time algos, etc...
On the other hand, I STRONGLY recommend teaching Java to computer-science majors, as its restrictiveness (vis-a-vis c/c++) keeps them focused on proper application design and universal computing paradigms.
So Java is NOT worthless, but it nowhere near being a fitting successor to c/c++.
You've documented a good reason for undocumented APIs.
The thing is, Microsoft has used just about all those undocumented APIs in flagship products that are competing with other vendors.
So of course, you shouldn't call secret APIs, because they could change, but when your name is Microsoft and you have sold a few million licenses using these secret APIs, then I expect the APIs won't be going away...
But why then do you have to get a separate product to run Office on Linx? Why can't regular Wine do it?
There have even been books written that cover the topic of hidden functions in Windows.
Microsoft likes to call them "undocumented", and their Office suite are littered with calls to these very functions, functions that exist to prevent vendors of equivalent packages from having a fair chance at competing with Microsoft.
Long story short - Most law is made by precedent, and international courts settling issues and setting precedents CAN influence lawmakers in other countries. Film at 11.
>How long does a person have to stay cooped up in a 4x8 cell for you to be happy? >Don't get me started about revenge, it's among the most primitive and WRONG emotions a human being can have.
I really respect what you're saying.
Only I feel that 18 months is far too light.
After 18 months, the convict will go on with his life, but his victim will never take another breath.
OK, there was no INTENT to cause harm, but you could argue that there was depraved indifference:
If someone is simply in a hurry, and the cause is not life-threatening like driving someone to a hospital or what have you, if it's only because the person was in a rush, and chose to do something like that without considering what the consequence might be, then at the very least, this person should never be put into any situation of responsibility ever again.
So far, there has been no mention of whether the crown will pursue something like that in sentencing.
So in other words, it'll be a slap on the wrist, with the perpetrator able to put it all behind him and forget about it.
Maybe if he gets arrested for driving recklessly again, he might get meted out a just sentence. Oh wait, he DID do something like this 3 years ago... Oh well, maybe if he kills a whole family next time he'll get two years...
I suggest taking the last x (to be determined per-case) cars of the train and marking them as "quiet" cars. No talking, no phones. This would be especially appreciated during mornings.
If you've got a mission-critical job or whatever, go sit in the other cars, where no one will mind.
>Cygwin was a nice placeholder until Linux arrived for Windows. Now it is irrelevent. I wouldn't be surprised to see reports of its death shortly.
Not so fast, hombré.
CoLinux doesn't even have X yet.
You actually NEED Cygwin/X to be able to display any graphics, unless you want to run text-only... Which is reliable and all, but visually underwhelming for what Linux can actually do.
I never said it would be pleasant. You WOULD see it if there was suspicious code or data constructs that the program was using to self-alter itself.
My point is that if there is anything suspicious in there and you do an analysis like this, you could spot viruses.
Come on, a LOT of hackers load apps with copy-protection in debuggers and execute the program step-by-step until they spot the security checks and then they replace the call with a couple of NOPs.
Not only can what I'm talking about BE done, it HAS been done.
Trust me, there are a LOT of REALLY proficient programmers out there who can get along fine without source-code.
Someone will chime in here with a link to The Tale of Mel, no doubt, I'm too lazy...
>Just like we can't trust closed-source e-voting software [when] it comes to our republic (the U.S.:), we can't trust close-source vendors whose systems power our infrastructure...that, without, the world would cease to function as it does today.
Taliban leader speaking:
OK troops, here's what we'll do; we will sub-contract from the Pakistanis that are sub-contracting from the Indians that are sub-contracting from the Americans that are outsourcing their I.T. operations, and when WE are the ones coding everything for the Americans, we slip in trojans, viruses and everything else we can think of to screw with their heads!
Once they are all helpless because they've outsourced all the jobs that require an education, we show up and sell them all Edsel automobiles and when they've all killed themselves on the road, we simply take over the country.
>Auditing the compiler's code doesn't guaranteee anything either. It too had to be compiled, and the compiler's compiler may have been compromised.
Not if you do like me and enter the compiler's code one opcode at a time with the debug command!
Kidding aside, it should be possible to view the disk image of the compiler and verify that the generated assembly instructions in it don't contain a virus.
Slashdot Mirror
Since when is it OK to develop a new kernel and abandon one that many users are still betting on?
2.4 can have new things added to it, there's now law that says it can't.
And if the 2.4 maintainers have found some good additions, well, all the better for users of 2.4
No disrespect intended, Bats,
.COM boom (I equate the PC revolution to it, possibly wrongly) was a curse.
Everything you said IS true.
And YES, doing the same thing in c/c++ requires more discipline, but then, when did this become about lowering the bar constantly?
I thought we were supposed to master our art right into the very electrons if necessary and provide industrial-strength, efficient solutions.
Sometimes I think the
I have 20+ years of programming experience, you see. The reason I say I have 15 is because at the beginning there, it was incredibly hard to find a job. Jobs were very scarce.
When things boomed, it brought another effect; people (managers, executives and the like) looked for the easy way out. Faced with even more opportunities, but less programmers, the result was the bar being lowered and all these toy languages being invented.
I'm not saying you can't do good things in Java, but it's like scratching your belly-button while wearing boxing-gloves.
A decent c/c++ programmer will get you the same result, and it'll be leaner in its resource requirements, faster in execution, etc...
Why lower the bar more and introduce even more noise? Humans have a tendency to let things slide until there's a crisis.
The solution isn't EASIER languages, it's getting the young people who really feel like it's their path to ramp up with the knowledge they need.
Where are the apprenticeships? Back in the day, you were an apprentice for a long time BEFORE you got to touch production-level code.
Now, if you've got six months scholastic training in Java and are willing to work for peanuts, you can get a job writing production code in any java shop.
Don't you see where this is headed?
Soon it'll be a lot like newspeak (1984):
More and more, complex ideas will be made obsolete by new programming techniques, developers will get lazier and lazier. Knowledge will be forgotten.
When it will all break down, there'll be no one that remembers how anything works.
That is the coolest thing I've read in a while.
Did you write it? Kudos.
It's truly swell.
sig - I've upped my karma, so now up yours.
I am a c/c++ programmer with 15 years experience.
I programmed professionally for two years in Java.
I DIDN'T drop c/c++, because I found Java to be a toy language and really bad at interfacing with the real world. Hardware, real-time algos, etc...
On the other hand, I STRONGLY recommend teaching Java to computer-science majors, as its restrictiveness (vis-a-vis c/c++) keeps them focused on proper application design and universal computing paradigms.
So Java is NOT worthless, but it nowhere near being a fitting successor to c/c++.
>I'd be much more interested in knocking asteroids and comets into Mars until it has the same mass and average chemical content as Earth.
To the martians, that would be terrorforming!
OK Sam,
You've documented a good reason for undocumented APIs.
The thing is, Microsoft has used just about all those undocumented APIs in flagship products that are competing with other vendors.
So of course, you shouldn't call secret APIs, because they could change, but when your name is Microsoft and you have sold a few million licenses using these secret APIs, then I expect the APIs won't be going away...
You're right
But why then do you have to get a separate product to run Office on Linx? Why can't regular Wine do it?
There have even been books written that cover the topic of hidden functions in Windows.
Microsoft likes to call them "undocumented", and their Office suite are littered with calls to these very functions, functions that exist to prevent vendors of equivalent packages from having a fair chance at competing with Microsoft.
Look it up.
Sure, and you can also polish the people in the U.S. legal system who found Micrsoft guilty of doing that.
And he actually rode that code over a transom on its maiden voyage.
THAT'S courage.
>How would undocumented functions in Windows make your own code go FASTER than (for example) possible on linux with gcc?
You could have a 'hidden' implementation of a function like say memcpy.
The 'known' implementation of memcpy could do a nominal job, and the 'hidden' version could be faster.
If you're someone with access to the hidden function, your program, although no different from another vendor's could be much faster because of it.
>Am I the only one who's heard "job" used as a metaphor for shit/having a shit?
No; that's where the expression
"The job isn't finished until the paperwork is done"
came from.
Think about it.
Sounds like crap.
Long story short - Most law is made by precedent, and international courts settling issues and setting precedents CAN influence lawmakers in other countries. Film at 11.
>Anyone that supports Copyright infringement Jail time is a total Retard.
Any country that jails millions of people a year for smoking marijuana is retarded. Oh wait...
>How long does a person have to stay cooped up in a 4x8 cell for you to be happy?
>Don't get me started about revenge, it's among the most primitive and WRONG emotions a human being can have.
I really respect what you're saying.
Only I feel that 18 months is far too light.
After 18 months, the convict will go on with his life, but his victim will never take another breath.
OK, there was no INTENT to cause harm, but you could argue that there was depraved indifference:
If someone is simply in a hurry, and the cause is not life-threatening like driving someone to a hospital or what have you, if it's only because the person was in a rush, and chose to do something like that without considering what the consequence might be, then at the very least, this person should never be put into any situation of responsibility ever again.
So far, there has been no mention of whether the crown will pursue something like that in sentencing.
So in other words, it'll be a slap on the wrist, with the perpetrator able to put it all behind him and forget about it.
Maybe if he gets arrested for driving recklessly again, he might get meted out a just sentence. Oh wait, he DID do something like this 3 years ago... Oh well, maybe if he kills a whole family next time he'll get two years...
It's a poke at Slashdot; where when we're bored, if there isn't a dragon to fight, well, we'll just invent something directed against SCO/Microsoft.
Parody, really.
Aw, screw all that.
Isn't there an SCO story about to be posted?
Maybe we can set some ground-rules then.
I suggest taking the last x (to be determined per-case) cars of the train and marking them as "quiet" cars. No talking, no phones. This would be especially appreciated during mornings.
If you've got a mission-critical job or whatever, go sit in the other cars, where no one will mind.
Otherwise, I will jam you.
>No matter what you believe until you actually do a controlled study you[r] opinion would seem to be wrong.
Yes, the same way a tree falling in the forest makes no noise if you're not there to hear it.
How long before MS issues a service pack that "breaks" CoLinux?
>Cygwin was a nice placeholder until Linux arrived for Windows. Now it is irrelevent. I wouldn't be surprised to see reports of its death shortly.
Not so fast, hombré.
CoLinux doesn't even have X yet.
You actually NEED Cygwin/X to be able to display any graphics, unless you want to run text-only... Which is reliable and all, but visually underwhelming for what Linux can actually do.
From what I've heard, the subsystems ou mentioned are becoming RARER on Windows.
I'm not so sure the OS/2 subsysem is still there, nor the Posix.
It's just a question of time before MS drop the Win16 support altogether, etc...
I never said it would be pleasant.
You WOULD see it if there was suspicious code or data constructs that the program was using to self-alter itself.
My point is that if there is anything suspicious in there and you do an analysis like this, you could spot viruses.
Come on, a LOT of hackers load apps with copy-protection in debuggers and execute the program step-by-step until they spot the security checks and then they replace the call with a couple of NOPs.
Not only can what I'm talking about BE done, it HAS been done.
Trust me, there are a LOT of REALLY proficient programmers out there who can get along fine without source-code.
Someone will chime in here with a link to The Tale of Mel, no doubt, I'm too lazy...
>Just like we can't trust closed-source e-voting software [when] it comes to our republic (the U.S.:), we can't trust close-source vendors whose systems power our infrastructure...that, without, the world would cease to function as it does today.
Taliban leader speaking:
OK troops, here's what we'll do; we will sub-contract from the Pakistanis that are sub-contracting from the Indians that are sub-contracting from the Americans that are outsourcing their I.T. operations, and when WE are the ones coding everything for the Americans, we slip in trojans, viruses and everything else we can think of to screw with their heads!
Once they are all helpless because they've outsourced all the jobs that require an education, we show up and sell them all Edsel automobiles and when they've all killed themselves on the road, we simply take over the country.
Simple.
>Auditing the compiler's code doesn't guaranteee anything either. It too had to be compiled, and the compiler's compiler may have been compromised.
Not if you do like me and enter the compiler's code one opcode at a time with the debug command!
Kidding aside, it should be possible to view the disk image of the compiler and verify that the generated assembly instructions in it don't contain a virus.