College Student: Dad, I was, like, downloading tunes and stuff, and like, the University lawyer guys said that the CD guys were gonna bill me for, like, thousands of dollars.
Certainly more eloquent and knowledgable people than I have tackled this issue. One in particular is C.S. Lewis in his book "Mere Christianity". It's a relatively short but very deep book, and I highly recommend it. Nevertheless, I will try my best to express how I see things, within the confines of Slashdot's posting character limit, whatever that may be.
God's giving of free will to humans gives us the capacity to rebel against Him. When we break His laws and/or deny His sovereignty, that is sin. As much as we like to have God portrayed as an all-loving being, He is also a just God. He has a righteous anger toward sin and evil, and like any judicial system, there is a price to be paid for wrongdoing.
In the Old Testament, God demanded sacrifices from the people of Israel, whether it was a certain percentage of crops, or animals, or whatever. Some sacrifices were specifically signs of fealty, while others were for atonement for the sins of the people. These were part of the ordinances that God relayed to Moses about how the newly-rescued Hebrew people were to behave. Using the prescribed rituals, the Israelites had a way for God to forgive their sins through the spilling of sacrificial blood on His altar. Of course, the lamb or goat or bull that was killed was not at fault; they hadn't committed the sins. However, God pronounced that those sacrifices were acceptable *substitutions* for the people themselves. And I believe He did that out of love for His creation.
Think about it another way. These people wandered through the desert for 40 years. Giving up any source of meat (or milk or fat or hides) was a huge deal. If one was truly penitent and wanted to have his transgressions against God forgiven, he'd faithfully do what was required. They had to trust in the covenant God made with them, that He would deliver them, both physically and spiritually, if they obeyed Him.
As told rolled on, and Israel got in and out of trouble, they reached a point where the letter of the Law had become more important than the spirit of the Law. (Sounds a lot like the world now, in fact.) Merely going through the motions to reach a state of spiritual cleanliness wasn't enough. They'd lost their intimate relationship with God. God knew that this approach to forgiveness wasn't working. Rather than leave them/us to languish in separation from Him, He decided that the time was right to come down Himself to deal with the matter once and for all.
I can't purport to explain how God took on human form, or how Jesus is part of the Trinity and yet is of the same essense as God. However, just as a sacrificial lamb at Passover had to be pure and unblemished, so did Jesus have to lead a sinless life in order to become a substitution sacrifice. And it wasn't simply that He went through a cruel and gruesome death to provide some sort of balance to the universe; His life and death obviated the need for continual earthly sacrifice to restore our connection with God by taking the punishments for sin onto Himself.
I probably still haven't provided much clarity as to how one person can pay for another person's evil. I can't say I had any insight into this idea until I became a parent. As my daughter has gotten older, I've become more aware of how our perception of God as a Father deals directly with His nature. If my daughter had a debt to be paid that would result in something horrible happening to her, I would pay that debt in her stead. Trying to draw parallels between human justice and Divine justice is difficult, and that may contribute to the confusion about this issue. However, the crux of what I would do to save my child, whether from some outside evil or from herself, and what lengths God would and did go to for us is love. This author put it much better than I could:
"God is not like an infinitely indulgent parent who never holds anyone accountable for sins. But since the dominant trait in the divine
I'll hazard a guess that most people who are sincere in their Christian beliefs have indeed thought it through. If it annoys or befuddles you that someone can whole-heartedly believe that God would become a man and be a willing sacrifice to atone for all the evil crap that we humans do, try sitting down and lend an honest ear to what that a Christian has to say about it. I'll hazard another guess that you are sharp enough to distinguish between a Billy Graham and an Ernest Angley if you decide to ask someone.
Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 2:14 that spiritual matters seem like "folly" to those who do not believe in or discern by spiritual means. Granted, some of the spiritual concepts in the New Testament are non-trivial and tough, even for believers. So it's easy to see why non-believers scratch their heads and wonder why people devote their lives to such seeming silliness. If people took the time to probe a bit deeper into the Bible, rather than dismissing it out of hand or thinking it's not worth the effort, they'd find all kinds of things that help Life make sense. Plus it would do The World a world of good to read, understand, and obey God's laws like "don't murder each other", "don't lie to each other", and "don't be bumpin' uglies with people you aren't married to".
To respond to your first question, being a Christian doesn't embarrass me. I can handle people scoffing at and ridiculing me because I believe Christ was resurrected after being crucified and that He did it out of love for us. I can't prove God to anyone, but I can try my best to live by Christ's teachings to make people wonder "why the heck does he live that way?" and try to reflect some of His light in their direction. I can deal with the supposed intellectuals who rub themselves daily with a picture of Darwin and tell me that Science has disposed of my God. I have a degree in Biochemistry and am quite capable of discerning good scientific methodology from bad, regardless of whether the "facts" come from the Evolution or Creationism camps. Despite the usual vehement and acidic response from the majority of Slashdotters about religion, God has proven Himself to me many times over, and it has nothing to do with mental illness, brainwashing, or wishful thinking, as they kindly suggest.
To reflect your last question back to you, if where you end up for Eternity is on the line, meaning an eternity with God or without God based on your choice of accepting or rejecting Him, doesn't it behoove (love that word!) you to think it through?
You may be missing Jesus' point. He's not saying, "Don't pray in public." or, as you put it, "Don't proselytize." As with most of his admonitions and parables, He's saying that you need to examine the intent of what you're doing. Are you praying in the open to draw attention to how "holy" you are? If so, then stop doing that, and get to a place (both literally and spiritually) where your prayers become meaningful.
Nut? I prefer the term "Jesus Freak". (Wow, that really dates me, doesn't it?);)
I find it funny that people who choose not to acknowledge God are the ones who view religion as a set of shackles, a purposefully constructed prison in which to enslave the gullible and the desparate. The people I've encounted who have decided that what the Bible has to say is true and have given their lives over to Christ tell me the exact opposite, that their belief is freeing and revealing. A friend at work who recently had such an experience says that the description of "scales falling from ones eyes" is the best way to put it.
I've had people tell me that my belief is a fairy tale, that I, like so many millions of others through out human history, am simply unable and/or unwilling to face my own mortality and a godless oblivion. They try to convince me that my experiences have all been in my head or that I've chosen to see God's hand in events where it didn't exist. All I can do is disagree and point out that they have no way to invalidate my experiences. That may sound like a student debate team kind of cop-out, but ultimately there's no argument I can give to people who don't want to find out for themselves if all this Jesus stuff is for real.
Most non-believers want some concrete thing placed in front of them that will utterly convince them that God exists. I've read several people on Slashdot say that if God would give them some supernatural sign, they'd believe. I hate to say it, but if you start out from that stance, even a talking, burning bush won't help. Jesus had loads of people following Him around, watching Him perform miracles, and they STILL didn't get who He was. He must have gotten tired of smacking Himself in the forehead out of incredulity over their thickness. Besides, how many people here would pipe up if they did have a supernatural experience? Probably very few, if any. The shouting down one would receive would be loud, vicious, and acerbic. Or they'd simply wave it off.
"Dude! Jesus talked to me last night!"
"Dude, you've got to take a break from those 72 hour WoW sessions..."
On the flip side, I certainly understand non-Christians wanting nothing to do with such a group of apparent hypocrites. There's a song from ages ago that says, "And they'll know we are Christians by our love." A more appropriate rendition nowadays would be "And they'll know we are Christians by our [pomposity, condescension, joylessness, manipulation, lack of caring]." How we act usually has more impact on opinions about us than what we say. My family and I are blessed in that we're part of a church (Southern Baptist, if you feel the need to go find the appropiately-sized skewer) that doesn't just Talk the Talk, and that's all. When we first started attending, I was reminded of a bit from Weird Al's "Amish Paradise": "There's no time for sin and vice, living in an Amish Paradise." These people are busy and use the extra energy it takes to be mindful of *not* appearing pompous, smug, etc, etc, in what they set out to accomplish. Are they perfect? No, but their focus and commitment is unlike any I've seen in a long time. If you want to see Christians living Christ's example, rather than just pretending, I'll send you the URL for their website.
Yes, I'm rambling. Back on track. I can't prove or disprove God to you. I will suggest, though, that if the question of why so many millions of people choose to believe in a fairy tale bugs you and makes your blood pressure rise, perhaps an honest, genuine investigation will help. No churches, no worship services, no well-dressed clergy shoving offering plates at you; just you and a Bible. If you're worried about people you know freaking out ("Why the #$%^ are you reading that crap?!?"), then do your research in private. If you read bits of it earlier in life, I'll bet it won't read the same with your current eyes. I can't tell you what might happen. I can't say that you'll get some overly bright, Spielburgian mist swirling around you and booming, disembodied voices in the room. But God knows all of the attitudes we bring to the table. If you show up with some measure of openness, well...who knows?
If hebrew as a written language came into existance 300 years after Moses would have died, what were the 10 commandments written in? O.o
I just finished reading Graham Phillips' book about the Knights Templar and the Ark of the Covenant. He has some interesting thoughts on that very intriguing question, based on a stone slab he supposedly found:
I believe that this is known as "argument from incredulity".
Possibly, but it was interesting to see cracks appear in the mindset of someone who was 100% certain that his indoctrination from the Scientific Establishment contained the only explanations for Life, The Universe, and Everything. (Sorry, Douglas, had to do it...)
So you are saying that your lack of acceptance of a well-established scientific theory is not based upon inadequacies with the evidence, but rather your interpretation of an unrelated religious text?
Unrelated? I felt that the inclusion of a reference from the New Testament to the beginning of everything would help posit my point of view. I didn't mean to imply that that was the sole criterion for my current mindset, but rather that Jesus' words ultimately tip the scales in favor of God's version of Creation, rather than man's.
And yes, I do have problems with some aspects of the firmly entrenched theory of evolution, problems that my logical, scientific side wrestles with. To be fair, I have questions and problems stemming from the Christian side too. Gratefully, God has been answering those questions and resolving those problems for me, in large part, I suspect, based on how deeply I've been digging into this issue over the last decade or so.
Uh, not quite. There is a lot of compelling evidence for evolution. There's not a scrap for God. Its all faith.
Well, there are a lot of data that get unilaterally shoved into an evolutionary framework. Try viewing the same data in another framework, say Catastrophism. See if the data fit.
As for having no evidence for God, that's a matter of point-of-view. I see DNA as prime evidence for the existence of God; most evolutionists do not. One of my favorite stories is about a staunchly atheistic Research Assistant I worked with in a Pharmacology lab many years ago. About two weeks into a Genetics course, he came back to the lab with a stunned look on his face. When I asked him what was wrong, he said, "We can't exist. It's all too complex for us to be alive." I just smiled at him.
The creationists have faith; this is irrational belief.
Perhaps for some. However, my faith in Christ is not simply, as is so often portrayed, "blind". There's an old Baptist hymn that says, "Trust me; try me; prove me." As I read the scriptures and put God's promises to us through many rigorous tests, I have yet to find Him lacking. If I had, I would surely have rejected it all by now. No, my faith is neither blind nor irrational. God has proven Himself to me over and over in lots of different way. You can say that this God stuff is all in my head, or that I'm weak-minded and just parroting what some fanatics have told me to believe, but my experiences and ability to question authority tell me otherwise.
You may also point out that belief in Christ and belief in Creationism aren't necessarily the same thing. For a long time, I thought that too. When I got out of college with a degree in Biochemistry, I was firm in my "theistic evolution" view; God "created" man via evolutionary means. It took many long years of little niggling things in the back of mind before I started revisiting this issue. I've read books, articles, papers, etc, from the various camps. I've debated with people from many of those camps, depending on which particular question I was grappling with at the time. To bring all this around to the start of this paragraph, the clincher for me as to my view on Creationism now comes from Christ's own words. He spoke of Adam *directly*; He spoke of the Creation *directly*. If the story in Genesis didn't happen the way it is written, then I don't think Christ would have perpetuated the misunderstanding. So when Jesus said, "Here's the way it is...", I'm not about to call the Son of God a liar.
;-)
Slashdot Mirror
Judge Garcia: WHAT?!? We'll see about that...
God's giving of free will to humans gives us the capacity to rebel against Him. When we break His laws and/or deny His sovereignty, that is sin. As much as we like to have God portrayed as an all-loving being, He is also a just God. He has a righteous anger toward sin and evil, and like any judicial system, there is a price to be paid for wrongdoing.
In the Old Testament, God demanded sacrifices from the people of Israel, whether it was a certain percentage of crops, or animals, or whatever. Some sacrifices were specifically signs of fealty, while others were for atonement for the sins of the people. These were part of the ordinances that God relayed to Moses about how the newly-rescued Hebrew people were to behave. Using the prescribed rituals, the Israelites had a way for God to forgive their sins through the spilling of sacrificial blood on His altar. Of course, the lamb or goat or bull that was killed was not at fault; they hadn't committed the sins. However, God pronounced that those sacrifices were acceptable *substitutions* for the people themselves. And I believe He did that out of love for His creation.
Think about it another way. These people wandered through the desert for 40 years. Giving up any source of meat (or milk or fat or hides) was a huge deal. If one was truly penitent and wanted to have his transgressions against God forgiven, he'd faithfully do what was required. They had to trust in the covenant God made with them, that He would deliver them, both physically and spiritually, if they obeyed Him.
As told rolled on, and Israel got in and out of trouble, they reached a point where the letter of the Law had become more important than the spirit of the Law. (Sounds a lot like the world now, in fact.) Merely going through the motions to reach a state of spiritual cleanliness wasn't enough. They'd lost their intimate relationship with God. God knew that this approach to forgiveness wasn't working. Rather than leave them/us to languish in separation from Him, He decided that the time was right to come down Himself to deal with the matter once and for all.
I can't purport to explain how God took on human form, or how Jesus is part of the Trinity and yet is of the same essense as God. However, just as a sacrificial lamb at Passover had to be pure and unblemished, so did Jesus have to lead a sinless life in order to become a substitution sacrifice. And it wasn't simply that He went through a cruel and gruesome death to provide some sort of balance to the universe; His life and death obviated the need for continual earthly sacrifice to restore our connection with God by taking the punishments for sin onto Himself.
I probably still haven't provided much clarity as to how one person can pay for another person's evil. I can't say I had any insight into this idea until I became a parent. As my daughter has gotten older, I've become more aware of how our perception of God as a Father deals directly with His nature. If my daughter had a debt to be paid that would result in something horrible happening to her, I would pay that debt in her stead. Trying to draw parallels between human justice and Divine justice is difficult, and that may contribute to the confusion about this issue. However, the crux of what I would do to save my child, whether from some outside evil or from herself, and what lengths God would and did go to for us is love. This author put it much better than I could:
"God is not like an infinitely indulgent parent who never holds anyone accountable for sins. But since the dominant trait in the divine
Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 2:14 that spiritual matters seem like "folly" to those who do not believe in or discern by spiritual means. Granted, some of the spiritual concepts in the New Testament are non-trivial and tough, even for believers. So it's easy to see why non-believers scratch their heads and wonder why people devote their lives to such seeming silliness. If people took the time to probe a bit deeper into the Bible, rather than dismissing it out of hand or thinking it's not worth the effort, they'd find all kinds of things that help Life make sense. Plus it would do The World a world of good to read, understand, and obey God's laws like "don't murder each other", "don't lie to each other", and "don't be bumpin' uglies with people you aren't married to".
To respond to your first question, being a Christian doesn't embarrass me. I can handle people scoffing at and ridiculing me because I believe Christ was resurrected after being crucified and that He did it out of love for us. I can't prove God to anyone, but I can try my best to live by Christ's teachings to make people wonder "why the heck does he live that way?" and try to reflect some of His light in their direction. I can deal with the supposed intellectuals who rub themselves daily with a picture of Darwin and tell me that Science has disposed of my God. I have a degree in Biochemistry and am quite capable of discerning good scientific methodology from bad, regardless of whether the "facts" come from the Evolution or Creationism camps. Despite the usual vehement and acidic response from the majority of Slashdotters about religion, God has proven Himself to me many times over, and it has nothing to do with mental illness, brainwashing, or wishful thinking, as they kindly suggest.
To reflect your last question back to you, if where you end up for Eternity is on the line, meaning an eternity with God or without God based on your choice of accepting or rejecting Him, doesn't it behoove (love that word!) you to think it through?
You may be missing Jesus' point. He's not saying, "Don't pray in public." or, as you put it, "Don't proselytize." As with most of his admonitions and parables, He's saying that you need to examine the intent of what you're doing. Are you praying in the open to draw attention to how "holy" you are? If so, then stop doing that, and get to a place (both literally and spiritually) where your prayers become meaningful.
I find it funny that people who choose not to acknowledge God are the ones who view religion as a set of shackles, a purposefully constructed prison in which to enslave the gullible and the desparate. The people I've encounted who have decided that what the Bible has to say is true and have given their lives over to Christ tell me the exact opposite, that their belief is freeing and revealing. A friend at work who recently had such an experience says that the description of "scales falling from ones eyes" is the best way to put it.
I've had people tell me that my belief is a fairy tale, that I, like so many millions of others through out human history, am simply unable and/or unwilling to face my own mortality and a godless oblivion. They try to convince me that my experiences have all been in my head or that I've chosen to see God's hand in events where it didn't exist. All I can do is disagree and point out that they have no way to invalidate my experiences. That may sound like a student debate team kind of cop-out, but ultimately there's no argument I can give to people who don't want to find out for themselves if all this Jesus stuff is for real.
Most non-believers want some concrete thing placed in front of them that will utterly convince them that God exists. I've read several people on Slashdot say that if God would give them some supernatural sign, they'd believe. I hate to say it, but if you start out from that stance, even a talking, burning bush won't help. Jesus had loads of people following Him around, watching Him perform miracles, and they STILL didn't get who He was. He must have gotten tired of smacking Himself in the forehead out of incredulity over their thickness. Besides, how many people here would pipe up if they did have a supernatural experience? Probably very few, if any. The shouting down one would receive would be loud, vicious, and acerbic. Or they'd simply wave it off.
"Dude! Jesus talked to me last night!"
"Dude, you've got to take a break from those 72 hour WoW sessions..."
On the flip side, I certainly understand non-Christians wanting nothing to do with such a group of apparent hypocrites. There's a song from ages ago that says, "And they'll know we are Christians by our love." A more appropriate rendition nowadays would be "And they'll know we are Christians by our [pomposity, condescension, joylessness, manipulation, lack of caring]." How we act usually has more impact on opinions about us than what we say. My family and I are blessed in that we're part of a church (Southern Baptist, if you feel the need to go find the appropiately-sized skewer) that doesn't just Talk the Talk, and that's all. When we first started attending, I was reminded of a bit from Weird Al's "Amish Paradise": "There's no time for sin and vice, living in an Amish Paradise." These people are busy and use the extra energy it takes to be mindful of *not* appearing pompous, smug, etc, etc, in what they set out to accomplish. Are they perfect? No, but their focus and commitment is unlike any I've seen in a long time. If you want to see Christians living Christ's example, rather than just pretending, I'll send you the URL for their website.
Yes, I'm rambling. Back on track. I can't prove or disprove God to you. I will suggest, though, that if the question of why so many millions of people choose to believe in a fairy tale bugs you and makes your blood pressure rise, perhaps an honest, genuine investigation will help. No churches, no worship services, no well-dressed clergy shoving offering plates at you; just you and a Bible. If you're worried about people you know freaking out ("Why the #$%^ are you reading that crap?!?"), then do your research in private. If you read bits of it earlier in life, I'll bet it won't read the same with your current eyes. I can't tell you what might happen. I can't say that you'll get some overly bright, Spielburgian mist swirling around you and booming, disembodied voices in the room. But God knows all of the attitudes we bring to the table. If you show up with some measure of openness, well...who knows?
I just finished reading Graham Phillips' book about the Knights Templar and the Ark of the Covenant. He has some interesting thoughts on that very intriguing question, based on a stone slab he supposedly found:
http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/Web/corporate/pages .nsf/Links/B2A5F18842CF06918025708C0050F483
Possibly, but it was interesting to see cracks appear in the mindset of someone who was 100% certain that his indoctrination from the Scientific Establishment contained the only explanations for Life, The Universe, and Everything. (Sorry, Douglas, had to do it...)
So you are saying that your lack of acceptance of a well-established scientific theory is not based upon inadequacies with the evidence, but rather your interpretation of an unrelated religious text?
Unrelated? I felt that the inclusion of a reference from the New Testament to the beginning of everything would help posit my point of view. I didn't mean to imply that that was the sole criterion for my current mindset, but rather that Jesus' words ultimately tip the scales in favor of God's version of Creation, rather than man's.
And yes, I do have problems with some aspects of the firmly entrenched theory of evolution, problems that my logical, scientific side wrestles with. To be fair, I have questions and problems stemming from the Christian side too. Gratefully, God has been answering those questions and resolving those problems for me, in large part, I suspect, based on how deeply I've been digging into this issue over the last decade or so.
Well, there are a lot of data that get unilaterally shoved into an evolutionary framework. Try viewing the same data in another framework, say Catastrophism. See if the data fit.
As for having no evidence for God, that's a matter of point-of-view. I see DNA as prime evidence for the existence of God; most evolutionists do not. One of my favorite stories is about a staunchly atheistic Research Assistant I worked with in a Pharmacology lab many years ago. About two weeks into a Genetics course, he came back to the lab with a stunned look on his face. When I asked him what was wrong, he said, "We can't exist. It's all too complex for us to be alive." I just smiled at him.
The creationists have faith; this is irrational belief.
Perhaps for some. However, my faith in Christ is not simply, as is so often portrayed, "blind". There's an old Baptist hymn that says, "Trust me; try me; prove me." As I read the scriptures and put God's promises to us through many rigorous tests, I have yet to find Him lacking. If I had, I would surely have rejected it all by now. No, my faith is neither blind nor irrational. God has proven Himself to me over and over in lots of different way. You can say that this God stuff is all in my head, or that I'm weak-minded and just parroting what some fanatics have told me to believe, but my experiences and ability to question authority tell me otherwise.
You may also point out that belief in Christ and belief in Creationism aren't necessarily the same thing. For a long time, I thought that too. When I got out of college with a degree in Biochemistry, I was firm in my "theistic evolution" view; God "created" man via evolutionary means. It took many long years of little niggling things in the back of mind before I started revisiting this issue. I've read books, articles, papers, etc, from the various camps. I've debated with people from many of those camps, depending on which particular question I was grappling with at the time. To bring all this around to the start of this paragraph, the clincher for me as to my view on Creationism now comes from Christ's own words. He spoke of Adam *directly*; He spoke of the Creation *directly*. If the story in Genesis didn't happen the way it is written, then I don't think Christ would have perpetuated the misunderstanding. So when Jesus said, "Here's the way it is...", I'm not about to call the Son of God a liar.
;-)