Windows not good for programmers? It's one of the best platforms to develop for. The sheer amount of things a developer that knows what they are doing can do with Windows would probably shock most/.ers.
It's done this since at least 7.0. I'm on 8.02 and 8.50 right now.
I move over the link, click down and drag to the tab bar and it opens a new tab for it.
How else would they have gotten linked on slashdot? If they actually got it right, it wouldn't be on here. But since it makes MS look bad, HEY! Free hits.
You said NO code is shared. NONE. The likely hood of that is very very very very slim. Why write the same code twice for certain things?
There would be no reason to rewrite most of GDI.
>> Only part of running LUA is protecting yourself voluntarily. The other part is locking the machine down so that a user can't do unwanted actions. The main reason that LUA doesn't work right now is that apps don't work without the admin privs. They do things like write to HKLM, %Program Files%, %WINDOWSDIR%, etc. Prompting for a password works for users that *are* the admin. It doesn't fix the major problem of the apps trying to write to admin-only priveleged locations during normal operation. That's the real reason that LUA doesn't work right now, and that's why this feature doesn't fix the problem.
Most home users will still be the administrators, just not running an admin account. The people that are using a machine where they aren't admin or have access to the admin account, are usually at work places. For them, their sysadmin should set up proper group policies so they don't have these problems. There is still a small number that will have the problem you're talkign about, but a very small number, and it's a huge improvement. It's about the most they can do while preserving support for "legacy" applications, in this release. As a business that is known for keeping compatibility, they have to slowly transition their users.
>> The UI *really really* doesn't take up hardly any CPU time. I feel rather comfortable saying that there would be no difference if you are using the 2k interface. There would be a little difference in the XP/Luna interface, and tremendous difference with Vista/Aero. The reason there is more difference as you go is simply because MS created the problem, and then solved it.
It can. And offloading does nothing but IMPROVE performance. So I still can't see why you're unhappy with this.
And What problem did they create... user interface being handling by the CPU? I don't get what you're talking about.
>> You do realize that *every* MS release is an overdue upgrade, right?
You could say this about any Operating System. The computer industry moves FAST, it's really hard to keep up. No OS does.
>> Vista isn't the largest upgrade since 95, either.
How is it not? NT and 9x, the biggest difference was the kernel and the filesystem. That's a huge upgrade, yes. But Vista is redoing/majorly changing everything but those 2 things.
>> How is an incremental bugfix and feature add release the biggest thing?
EVERY release is an incrementaly bugfix and feature add release just about. That's what upgrades are! 3.1->95 was bigger, but I would place this second. The user is going to have the biggest transition since 3.1->95.
>> I seem to remember XP also being the biggest upgrade, and 2000, and Millenium.
Um.. how are they bigger? Did you evenf ucking see all the things I listed? A whole new API platform with new graphics and communications platforms... that's not big?
I'm sorry, but you have proven yourself to be a blind fucking idiot. The facts are in front of your face and you refuse to accept it.
>> LUA - If users have an admin level password, then you have no control over the machine. This password display is a home-user only feature, since it would be insane to do in a locked down environment. Additionally, the reason that apps do not with in the current LUA implementation is that they weren't properly written. If those vendors actually *fixed* their software, then this problem would be gone. MS isn't fixing the problem, here, they're just changing the problem.
When an app tries to do something that requires admin-level actions, it prompts the user for a password. I don't see how that's making another problem. That's what OS X and *nix do.
>> App crashing - I didn't say that apps won't crash, but that they shouldn't crash. That's the fault of the app vendor, and not usually MS. It's good to do damage control. Ultimately, the apps just need to get fixed. Oh, and they *are* sort of moving to running things in a VM... remember that whole.NET thing?
No, apps shouldnt crash. But why bring it up? What does it have to do with Microsoft or Vista? Yes,.NET helps, but Win32 is still supported and apps can still crash anyway.
>> Aux display - I do know what this is, but I've seen it done already. It's still nifty, but it's just not a big deal. Laptop vendors have had little status LCDs and such for a long time. Again, it isn't a problem that this exists, it just doesn't really matter.
I think you're underestimating the importance of this feature for people who travel a lot and such. App developers can easily write a plugin to display info on the aux display even when the computer is not on. I don' t think that's easily possible right now.
>> UI offloading - What would there be to offload from the UI, had MS not created the 3d rendered UI that needed it to begin with? It isn't a problem that they implemented this, it just wasn't a problem anyway. We hadn't needed to worry about the UI consuming resources since we had to worry about not being able to use some particular color depth because we didn't have enough frame buffer memory at that resolution.
I don't think you get it. By using the CPU to handle most drawing tasks takes up a lot of, well, cpu time. By offloading drawing tasks to the GPU, it makes GUI more responsive and gives more cpu time to non-gui tasks. The new look has nothing to do with it. The new look is simply a result of the gui offloading, not the other way around.
----
You can say that it's not offering you and your business users much, and that's fine. But I don't think you should be speaking for everyone. Vista is the largest upgrade since Windows 95. While a lot of end users don't really care what OS they use, there is still a large chunk that will see what Vista can do, and enjoy it, and be more productive.
It is an overdue upgrade, that finally addresses some of Windows biggest flaws, and that can only be a good thing.
It adds features that will make things more convenient for users, even if they don't even realize it.
Finally, it adds lot of goodies for developers and power users such as myself.
>> Per-app volume control - trivial to do yourself
Actually, no, it's not possible in Windows currently. We're talking about being able to set volume for multiple apps at the same time and having them all play audio at these different volumes at the same time.
>> Network stack - security is always good; are the other changes going to be used? Probably not.
Absolutely. I will use them myself, and I guarantee software companies will as well.
>> Indigo - implementing something that will almost certainly be proprietary, and that is already done elsewhere.
So it's propietary, therefore bad? Great logic.
>> Avalon/Aero - you say there's nothing else comparable; I say that you're wrong. Also, most of the features that they're showcasing with Aero make the system harder to use.
Sorry if you can't accept the truth. As far as ease of use, the final product will tell us.
>> Mini-apps - irrelevant, already possible. The smaller footprint isn't going to be realized anyway.
You're pretty much right. But now it'll reach a larger audience -- the average joe that doesn't download the latest cool software of the net such as konfabulator. That, and it will be better integrated into Windows than any other competitor. Yes, integrated, tied to, whatever you want to call it. To the end-user, most of the time, integration is GOOD.
>> Task Scheduler - Maybe. Fixing the current implementation is good, but it isn't used that much anyway.
But it IS used and it WILL be used more. Just because something isn't used that much, doesn't make it not worth improving, or not a good important change.
>> LUA - still won't work right until third-party devs fix their broken apps. If that happened, LUA would work anyway. Giving users a password for admin-level changes defeats the purpose of locking the machine down.
Actually, it will work pretty good. It's a stepping stone to better security without breaking most applications.
>> App jailing - or they could fix their implementation to not do stupid things. Having the feature is good, though. This will encourage bad habits.
I think you're looking it at the wrong way. You can't expect your software to be 100% flawless. There is bound to be something missed, and if providing an extra layer of security makes sure these oversights aren't taken advantage -- GREAT. I don't think any developer at Microsoft (specifically the IE and Mail team) believes that they don't have to take security more seriously with this.
>> App crashes - apps shouldn't crash anyway. App code needs to be fixed. Improving the handling is good, but will encourage bad habits.
Are you fucking serious? Microsoft can't prevent applications from crashing. It's next to impossible without essentially running them in a VM. I can't believe you just said that.
>> Transactional FS - this has been available elsewhere for quite some time. Its addition is welcome, but not generally useful for end users on a consumer OS. Apps should handle the conditions that this protects, already, NTFS handles the rest.
Most consumers won't know or care, yeah. But it's still useful for a large chunk of users. Just because MOST users dont benefit from it, doesn't make it an important update
>> Transactional Registry - the registry is a bad bad idea as is. Hacking transactions into it doesn't change this. This wouldn't be a problem if it was done in a sane manner to begin with, especially in conjunction with the FS transactions.
I don't like registry either, but they have to provide legacy support, and this just adds another layer of protection against corruption. I don't see anything bad about this.
>> Aux display - this is irrelevant. Devices with status displays already have drivers for them,
Slashdot is nothing but a big circle-jerk for the communist linux geeks. Bash Microsoft to impress your/. buddies! Rehash easily accessible info for karma points! Praise OSS no matter what to impress others!
Someone should get circlejerk.org and redirect it here.
They certainly are not over with record profits. And at their peak, doubt it. Whether or not Vista is a good product (i think it will be), it will be hyped to high hell and it will push their profits even higher. If their peak is going to fall, it wont be in the next year or two.
Is Microsoft not allowed to add stuff to their OS because someone already did it? That would be fucking ridiculous. I don't care if it's already been done, I care if they implement it nicely.
"Things nobody wants" is just stupid. Every feature is wanted by someone. Many of those I want, as a developer and as an end-user.
Things that don't matter, such as what?
Changing APIs around "again"? You do realize MS has an amazing history of backward compatibility, especially with APIs, right? All the current Win32 APIs will STILL work. So what's the problem? They are trying to improve their product, and you are looking to justify your hate for it with retarded reasons.
IT's funny, you go and talk about all this stuff they're changing and how you hate it, then turn around and say "no, there isnt much else". Contradictions anyone?
There is so many things they ARE changing. New interface is just one of them, bug fixes of course, and new versions of a couple of apps.
Again, I will repeat some of the major changes: - New audio stack with per-app volume control - New networking stack with better IPv6 support, more low-level access and controls for devs, and better security. This is huge for firewalls and such. - New communications platform API - New graphics platform that is more powerful than what's available in ANY other operating system right now - New search capabilities and API that are system-wide instead of from one little application. - New platform for making mini-apps that have a smaller footprint and are easier to deploy (Windows sidebar + gadgets) - Many new goodies for developers like:
- improved task scheduler API that allows event-based task scheduling
- - LUA which offers a new layer of security - Low level execution mode for apps like IE and Windows Mail which put the apps in a jail - Better handling of application crashes (with IO cancellation) and application recovery - Transactional file transfers - ability to rollback a change if it was interrupted before it was finished (such as if power goes out) - Transactional registry, which with the above will make System Restore even more powerful (does linux have a system restore equivalent?) - Auxiliary display support for devices that come with them (laptops, PDAs, etc) - Improved performance in app loading, networking (tcp/ip offloading), ui (gpu offloading)
I can go on if you want. If you still think there "isn't" much else, then you are a clueless moron that doesn't know his left from his right.
Can XUL map a video onto a 3d surface and play it in real-time while rotating that 3d surface? Can it do that with 10 videos/3d surface all at the same time, rotating around each other? Can it do that with maybe 50 lines of code or less?
Slashdot Mirror
Windows not good for programmers? It's one of the best platforms to develop for. The sheer amount of things a developer that knows what they are doing can do with Windows would probably shock most /.ers.
Bring on the flames.
It's done this since at least 7.0. I'm on 8.02 and 8.50 right now. I move over the link, click down and drag to the tab bar and it opens a new tab for it.
If that was the case, you WOULD hear about it in the news, especially /.
>> How about Super Drag and Go? Drag a link and it'll open it in a new tab. Drag a picture and it'll open the picture in a new tab.
Does it out of the box
How else would they have gotten linked on slashdot? If they actually got it right, it wouldn't be on here. But since it makes MS look bad, HEY! Free hits.
Now you're putting words in my mouth. Why should I continue discussing this with you? I won't.
You said NO code is shared. NONE. The likely hood of that is very very very very slim. Why write the same code twice for certain things? There would be no reason to rewrite most of GDI.
Many of the API code was shared. Try again.
>> There was no shared code between the two products! Thank you for proving you are indeed what I said you are.
You're too dense to get it.
No, they DO exist. They are not FINAL products or released to the public yet.
Does Firefox 1.5 Beta 1 exist? Yes.
>> Only part of running LUA is protecting yourself voluntarily. The other part is locking the machine down so that a user can't do unwanted actions. The main reason that LUA doesn't work right now is that apps don't work without the admin privs. They do things like write to HKLM, %Program Files%, %WINDOWSDIR%, etc. Prompting for a password works for users that *are* the admin. It doesn't fix the major problem of the apps trying to write to admin-only priveleged locations during normal operation. That's the real reason that LUA doesn't work right now, and that's why this feature doesn't fix the problem.
Most home users will still be the administrators, just not running an admin account. The people that are using a machine where they aren't admin or have access to the admin account, are usually at work places. For them, their sysadmin should set up proper group policies so they don't have these problems. There is still a small number that will have the problem you're talkign about, but a very small number, and it's a huge improvement. It's about the most they can do while preserving support for "legacy" applications, in this release. As a business that is known for keeping compatibility, they have to slowly transition their users.
>> The UI *really really* doesn't take up hardly any CPU time. I feel rather comfortable saying that there would be no difference if you are using the 2k interface. There would be a little difference in the XP/Luna interface, and tremendous difference with Vista/Aero. The reason there is more difference as you go is simply because MS created the problem, and then solved it.
It can. And offloading does nothing but IMPROVE performance. So I still can't see why you're unhappy with this.
And What problem did they create... user interface being handling by the CPU? I don't get what you're talking about.
>> You do realize that *every* MS release is an overdue upgrade, right?
You could say this about any Operating System. The computer industry moves FAST, it's really hard to keep up. No OS does.
>> Vista isn't the largest upgrade since 95, either.
How is it not? NT and 9x, the biggest difference was the kernel and the filesystem. That's a huge upgrade, yes. But Vista is redoing/majorly changing everything but those 2 things.
>> How is an incremental bugfix and feature add release the biggest thing?
EVERY release is an incrementaly bugfix and feature add release just about. That's what upgrades are! 3.1->95 was bigger, but I would place this second. The user is going to have the biggest transition since 3.1->95.
>> I seem to remember XP also being the biggest upgrade, and 2000, and Millenium.
Um.. how are they bigger? Did you evenf ucking see all the things I listed? A whole new API platform with new graphics and communications platforms... that's not big?
I'm sorry, but you have proven yourself to be a blind fucking idiot. The facts are in front of your face and you refuse to accept it.
>> LUA - If users have an admin level password, then you have no control over the machine. This password display is a home-user only feature, since it would be insane to do in a locked down environment. Additionally, the reason that apps do not with in the current LUA implementation is that they weren't properly written. If those vendors actually *fixed* their software, then this problem would be gone. MS isn't fixing the problem, here, they're just changing the problem.
.NET thing?
.NET helps, but Win32 is still supported and apps can still crash anyway.
When an app tries to do something that requires admin-level actions, it prompts the user for a password. I don't see how that's making another problem. That's what OS X and *nix do.
>> App crashing - I didn't say that apps won't crash, but that they shouldn't crash. That's the fault of the app vendor, and not usually MS. It's good to do damage control. Ultimately, the apps just need to get fixed. Oh, and they *are* sort of moving to running things in a VM... remember that whole
No, apps shouldnt crash. But why bring it up? What does it have to do with Microsoft or Vista? Yes,
>> Aux display - I do know what this is, but I've seen it done already. It's still nifty, but it's just not a big deal. Laptop vendors have had little status LCDs and such for a long time. Again, it isn't a problem that this exists, it just doesn't really matter.
I think you're underestimating the importance of this feature for people who travel a lot and such. App developers can easily write a plugin to display info on the aux display even when the computer is not on. I don' t think that's easily possible right now.
>> UI offloading - What would there be to offload from the UI, had MS not created the 3d rendered UI that needed it to begin with? It isn't a problem that they implemented this, it just wasn't a problem anyway. We hadn't needed to worry about the UI consuming resources since we had to worry about not being able to use some particular color depth because we didn't have enough frame buffer memory at that resolution.
I don't think you get it. By using the CPU to handle most drawing tasks takes up a lot of, well, cpu time. By offloading drawing tasks to the GPU, it makes GUI more responsive and gives more cpu time to non-gui tasks. The new look has nothing to do with it. The new look is simply a result of the gui offloading, not the other way around.
----
You can say that it's not offering you and your business users much, and that's fine. But I don't think you should be speaking for everyone. Vista is the largest upgrade since Windows 95. While a lot of end users don't really care what OS they use, there is still a large chunk that will see what Vista can do, and enjoy it, and be more productive.
It is an overdue upgrade, that finally addresses some of Windows biggest flaws, and that can only be a good thing.
It adds features that will make things more convenient for users, even if they don't even realize it.
Finally, it adds lot of goodies for developers and power users such as myself.
>> Per-app volume control - trivial to do yourself
Actually, no, it's not possible in Windows currently. We're talking about being able to set volume for multiple apps at the same time and having them all play audio at these different volumes at the same time.
>> Network stack - security is always good; are the other changes going to be used? Probably not.
Absolutely. I will use them myself, and I guarantee software companies will as well.
>> Indigo - implementing something that will almost certainly be proprietary, and that is already done elsewhere.
So it's propietary, therefore bad? Great logic.
>> Avalon/Aero - you say there's nothing else comparable; I say that you're wrong. Also, most of the features that they're showcasing with Aero make the system harder to use.
Sorry if you can't accept the truth. As far as ease of use, the final product will tell us.
>> Mini-apps - irrelevant, already possible. The smaller footprint isn't going to be realized anyway.
You're pretty much right. But now it'll reach a larger audience -- the average joe that doesn't download the latest cool software of the net such as konfabulator. That, and it will be better integrated into Windows than any other competitor. Yes, integrated, tied to, whatever you want to call it. To the end-user, most of the time, integration is GOOD.
>> Task Scheduler - Maybe. Fixing the current implementation is good, but it isn't used that much anyway.
But it IS used and it WILL be used more. Just because something isn't used that much, doesn't make it not worth improving, or not a good important change.
>> LUA - still won't work right until third-party devs fix their broken apps. If that happened, LUA would work anyway. Giving users a password for admin-level changes defeats the purpose of locking the machine down.
Actually, it will work pretty good. It's a stepping stone to better security without breaking most applications.
>> App jailing - or they could fix their implementation to not do stupid things. Having the feature is good, though. This will encourage bad habits.
I think you're looking it at the wrong way. You can't expect your software to be 100% flawless. There is bound to be something missed, and if providing an extra layer of security makes sure these oversights aren't taken advantage -- GREAT. I don't think any developer at Microsoft (specifically the IE and Mail team) believes that they don't have to take security more seriously with this.
>> App crashes - apps shouldn't crash anyway. App code needs to be fixed. Improving the handling is good, but will encourage bad habits.
Are you fucking serious? Microsoft can't prevent applications from crashing. It's next to impossible without essentially running them in a VM. I can't believe you just said that.
>> Transactional FS - this has been available elsewhere for quite some time. Its addition is welcome, but not generally useful for end users on a consumer OS. Apps should handle the conditions that this protects, already, NTFS handles the rest.
Most consumers won't know or care, yeah. But it's still useful for a large chunk of users. Just because MOST users dont benefit from it, doesn't make it an important update
>> Transactional Registry - the registry is a bad bad idea as is. Hacking transactions into it doesn't change this. This wouldn't be a problem if it was done in a sane manner to begin with, especially in conjunction with the FS transactions.
I don't like registry either, but they have to provide legacy support, and this just adds another layer of protection against corruption. I don't see anything bad about this.
>> Aux display - this is irrelevant. Devices with status displays already have drivers for them,
Sparkle or Avalon (WPF)? WPF certain does exist, as people have used it.
Sparkle has been demoed on actual systems on a channel9 video. Yeah, it doesn't exist. Okay.
It's not OUT yet, but it exists buddy.
Slashdot is nothing but a big circle-jerk for the communist linux geeks. Bash Microsoft to impress your /. buddies! Rehash easily accessible info for karma points! Praise OSS no matter what to impress others!
Someone should get circlejerk.org and redirect it here.
They certainly are not over with record profits. And at their peak, doubt it. Whether or not Vista is a good product (i think it will be), it will be hyped to high hell and it will push their profits even higher. If their peak is going to fall, it wont be in the next year or two.
My hello world batch file is 17 bytes
Project looking glass is extremely weak. Seriously, look into what it does. It doesn't really do that much special.
Didn't know it could that so easily, thanks for the info.
You can also do it in Vista/XP with no lines of code, by dragging a few things around in Sparkle.
Is Microsoft not allowed to add stuff to their OS because someone already did it? That would be fucking ridiculous. I don't care if it's already been done, I care if they implement it nicely.
"Things nobody wants" is just stupid. Every feature is wanted by someone. Many of those I want, as a developer and as an end-user.
Things that don't matter, such as what?
Changing APIs around "again"? You do realize MS has an amazing history of backward compatibility, especially with APIs, right? All the current Win32 APIs will STILL work. So what's the problem? They are trying to improve their product, and you are looking to justify your hate for it with retarded reasons.
IT's funny, you go and talk about all this stuff they're changing and how you hate it, then turn around and say "no, there isnt much else". Contradictions anyone?
There is so many things they ARE changing. New interface is just one of them, bug fixes of course, and new versions of a couple of apps.
Again, I will repeat some of the major changes:
- New audio stack with per-app volume control
- New networking stack with better IPv6 support, more low-level access and controls for devs, and better security. This is huge for firewalls and such.
- New communications platform API
- New graphics platform that is more powerful than what's available in ANY other operating system right now
- New search capabilities and API that are system-wide instead of from one little application.
- New platform for making mini-apps that have a smaller footprint and are easier to deploy (Windows sidebar + gadgets)
- Many new goodies for developers like:
- improved task scheduler API that allows event-based task scheduling
-
- LUA which offers a new layer of security
- Low level execution mode for apps like IE and Windows Mail which put the apps in a jail
- Better handling of application crashes (with IO cancellation) and application recovery
- Transactional file transfers - ability to rollback a change if it was interrupted before it was finished (such as if power goes out)
- Transactional registry, which with the above will make System Restore even more powerful (does linux have a system restore equivalent?)
- Auxiliary display support for devices that come with them (laptops, PDAs, etc)
- Improved performance in app loading, networking (tcp/ip offloading), ui (gpu offloading)
I can go on if you want. If you still think there "isn't" much else, then you are a clueless moron that doesn't know his left from his right.
I didn't know products with betas out were vapourware... "dumbass".
You really buy that FUD that there isn't much else? http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=16246 2&cid=13582253
http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_prev iew_2005.asp
Try again, chief.
Can XUL map a video onto a 3d surface and play it in real-time while rotating that 3d surface? Can it do that with 10 videos/3d surface all at the same time, rotating around each other? Can it do that with maybe 50 lines of code or less?
Does it have a grid layout system?
Hardware accelerated desktop that can use shaders for windows?