if microsoft had to unbundle ie how many people would really know where to get their favorite non-ie browser from?
OEMs will bundle the browser of their choice. Simple as that. Most people buy PCs with Windows preinstalled, not Windows directly.
now we've got anti-trust law-suits against file system types... or we've got 100's of other browser makers suing to get their browser included in windows
No one has sued anyone. It is an antitrust complaint, not a lawsuit. Also, no one has demanded to be the only browser included anywhere.
it's not an unfair advantage to bundle software with *gasp* an operating system that requires software to be functional.
It is, when said software is used to impede competition. That's illegal.
Standards bodies are so fucking slow, if we relied on them for all progress, we'd still be loading programs into computers with DIP switches.
Yeah, cursed be TCP/IP, HTTP, etc. It's not like you can innovate on top of standards. No, the innvation needs to be in the standard itself.
And if you think carefully about it, what happened after Microsoft gained dominance of the browser market? That's right. The web has been standing still. Microsoft actively prevented innovation.
I cant get round the fact that Microsoft seem to be getting punished simply for not promoting the use of a competing product into their OS
They are not. They are being punished for illegally abusing their monopoly power to prevent competition.
If this gets through then the next thing criticised for being bundled will be...
It already did get through. Microsoft was convicted in the US for the very same thing. And remember the Media Player thing in Europe? Yep. It has already happened. And it happened because it could be shown that Microsoft broke the law.
Also, if you want a better browser you download it. Windows wont stop you.
Why has MS been conviced of that in both Europe, Korea, the EU, and so on, then? You know better than all those courts?
Wikipedia:
"In economics, a monopoly (from Greek monos , alone or single + polein , to sell) exists when a specific individual or enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it. Monopolies are thus characterized by a lack of economic competition for the good or service that they provide and a lack of viable substitute goods."
"MS is better than us so im goign to go cry to daddy"
I get it. So all antitrust complaints are automatically invalid? What about Microsoft's antitrust complaints against Google, or Google's against Microsoft?
Antitrust laws are laws. Just like laws against robbing people. Microsoft broke the law. Surely you are not saying that if I am robbed, I should stop whining, not go to the police, and instead blame myself for being stupid enough to get robbed?
Here's an idea, create a product that meets the customers requirements and that meets the markets needs, and gain your own market share.
You can't since Microsoft is abusing its monopoly to prevent competition, which is what they have been convicted of previously.
Also, are you saying that IE is a superior browser compared to Opera, Firefox and Safari?
The only thing that's beyond stupid here is your understanding of the situation. That Microsoft can't bundle IE doesn't mean that OEMs can't bundle any browsers. In fact, OEMs have always wanted to be able to bundle other browsers, but Microsoft has abused its monopoly power to prevent them from doing so (see the Netscape case in the US).
Wait, so taking a company to task for breaking laws in Europe is anti-Americanism? Wow... Never mind the fact that Microsoft has filed antitrust complaint against other companies themselves, including Google. It's the American way, baby!
Is there any doubt that a HTML viewer is a standard component in *any* modern OS intended for customer use? The worst thing Microsoft did in this arena is beat the curve and made it a standard component of their OS before everybody else did.
Wow, how quickly we forget. No, they did not just include it. They actively tried to undermine competition, among other things, by threatening OEMs to only bundle IE. They could do so because of their monopoly position. So they abused their monopoly to prevent competition. That's illegal.
Also, OEMs will install a "HTML viewer". No problems there. And this time they can choose whatever they want, such as Chrome, for search revenue from Google.
I'm sorry that the EU was woefully unprepared for the computer revolution, and has no OS or major software makers to call its own.
Google filed antitrust complaints against Microsoft. Does that mean that Google is just a crappy hobbyist project or something?
But hey, we're all upset we have no local OS company! Let's sue MS over and over again for moronic things!!
You are an idiot. First of all, this is not a lawsuit. Secondly, American companies file antitrust complaints all the time. This includes giants like Google and Microsoft.
"While we do not believe there are currently any legal requirements that would dictate which rendering mode must be chosen as the default for a given browser, this step clearly removes this question as a potential legal and regulatory issue"
See the bolded part there? That's Microsoft being terrified because of Opera's complaint.
Because administration needs to educate companies that just don't behave.
The only way to teach a company is to hit their wallet.
The OEM thing is part of Microsoft unbundling IE to offer actual choice. As a convicted monopolist, Microsoft plays by different rules than everyone else.
This whole thing is seriously just a whiny, passive-aggressive attempt to punish Microsoft for past misdeeds.
No, it's about Microsoft tactic where it forces OEMs to bundle IE, and threatens them with "fines" if they don't. Microsoft did the deeds. They must now pay the price. OEMs will preinstall their browser of choice anyway, so new PCs will not come browser-less.
Not sure what you are referring to. It's a fact that Microsoft is a convicted monopolist, and that the company has abused its market muscle to prevent OEMs from bundling other browsers. OEMs do want to be able to do that, but Microsoft has threatened them into submission.
So, you're saying that Microsoft should be punished because their OEMs have the tendency to avoid installing additional browsers, even though they're perfectly capable of it?
They are not. Microsoft has abused its market muscle to threaten OEMs into only bundling IE. OEMs do want to be able to bundle other browsers, but Microsoft has forced them not to.
no mater which one is bundled the others will complain the only fair way is to bundle every browser with every computer
No, because there's no single authority dictating which browser is to be installed. Each OEM will install his browser of chice. And OEMs do want to be able to do that, trust me. As an example, they would have a lot to gain by bundling Chrome and getting search revenue directly from Google.
Microsoft certainly pushes IE and other products on consumers but this lawsuit is ridiculous
It is not a lawsuit. It is a request for the EU antitrust authorities to look into Microsoft's actions in the browser market.
the wide range of windows software makes a package manager silly
Oh yeah, that must be why the iPhone App Store is such a flop... Seriously, Linux distros have been doing this for ages as well.
[and, if implemented would only result in worse favoritism concerning whose software made the cut] and forcing your grandmother to figure out how to FTP Firefox via the command line before she can check her email is just silly.
She wouldn't be forced to do anything like that. OEMs would preinstall the browser of their choice without Microsoft forcing them to bundle IE. And OEMs do want to use other browsers.
I hate M$ as much as the next guy, but seriously Opera, don't be unreasonable, FF hasn't had any trouble breaking into the browser market, maybe you're just doing something wrong?
Actually, Firefox has had a lot of trouble. 15% market share with giants like Google, Sun, IBM, etc. throwing their muscles behind it is an extremely poor result, and shows that Microsoft's actions have impeded competition.
If the EU wants to be consistent, they would have to require Apple to remove iTunes, Safari and iLife from every Mac delivered in Europe.
No, since Apple is not a convicted monopolist. Monopolists play by different rules than other companies.
In the end, I think what EU really wants is to strip down Windows 7 so it has the same functionality as the first release of Windows 95--you have to install the web browser, media player and possibly the fast disk search functionality separately.
Actually, Microsoft itself is stripping Windows of lots of stuff. You can optionally install it later. Remember, Linux distros have had package systems for ages. You can easily install additional applications at any time. No reason why MS can't do the same.
If Jon von Tetzchner seriously cared about the problems that you mentioned then he would be filing a completely different complaint rather then one about the removal of a web browser.
No, because this is addressing the problem at its roots.
However, that is not what Opera's complaint is. From reading the article their problem is with Internet Explorer being tied to the system. There is no mention of OEM deals.
Actually, there is more to Opera's complaint than simply unbundling. I suggest you read it.
Ok, however the inclusion of one web browser (IE) doesn't stop them or an OEM bundling the software with new PCs.
Actually, that is exactly what stops them from doing so. They also stopped Netscape by threatening OEMs that did so to charge them more for Windows. OEMs got discounts when bundling Windows. Without those discounts, they would make less money. So Microsoft did indeed use its market muscle to threaten OEMs not to bundle other browsers.
You can agree or disagree with Opera's antitrust complaint, but the fact is that it worked:
While we do not believe there are currently any legal requirements that would dictate which rendering mode must be chosen as the default for a given browser, this step clearly removes this question as a potential legal and regulatory issue
So even if this thing goes nowhere, Opera's complaint still forced Microsoft to default to standards mode in IE8.
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OEMs will bundle the browser of their choice. Simple as that. Most people buy PCs with Windows preinstalled, not Windows directly.
No one has sued anyone. It is an antitrust complaint, not a lawsuit. Also, no one has demanded to be the only browser included anywhere.
It is, when said software is used to impede competition. That's illegal.
Yeah, cursed be TCP/IP, HTTP, etc. It's not like you can innovate on top of standards. No, the innvation needs to be in the standard itself.
And if you think carefully about it, what happened after Microsoft gained dominance of the browser market? That's right. The web has been standing still. Microsoft actively prevented innovation.
They are not. They are being punished for illegally abusing their monopoly power to prevent competition.
It already did get through. Microsoft was convicted in the US for the very same thing. And remember the Media Player thing in Europe? Yep. It has already happened. And it happened because it could be shown that Microsoft broke the law.
Come on, are you that stupid?
THhy were done as an "evil plot" to undermine or prevent competition and lock the market to IE. Which is illegal.
It is not a lawsuit, but an antitrust complaint. If you can demonstrate that Microsoft has hurt the market with stdlib.h, go ahead.
Are you amazingly ignorant or just trolling? Did you miss the near-identical antitrust case in the US, where Microsoft was actually convicted?
Why has MS been conviced of that in both Europe, Korea, the EU, and so on, then? You know better than all those courts?
Wikipedia:
"In economics, a monopoly (from Greek monos , alone or single + polein , to sell) exists when a specific individual or enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it. Monopolies are thus characterized by a lack of economic competition for the good or service that they provide and a lack of viable substitute goods."
I get it. So all antitrust complaints are automatically invalid? What about Microsoft's antitrust complaints against Google, or Google's against Microsoft?
Antitrust laws are laws. Just like laws against robbing people. Microsoft broke the law. Surely you are not saying that if I am robbed, I should stop whining, not go to the police, and instead blame myself for being stupid enough to get robbed?
You can't since Microsoft is abusing its monopoly to prevent competition, which is what they have been convicted of previously.
Also, are you saying that IE is a superior browser compared to Opera, Firefox and Safari?
Apple is not a monopolist.
OEMs will install the browser of their choice.
Browsers are free nowadays.
The only thing that's beyond stupid here is your understanding of the situation. That Microsoft can't bundle IE doesn't mean that OEMs can't bundle any browsers. In fact, OEMs have always wanted to be able to bundle other browsers, but Microsoft has abused its monopoly power to prevent them from doing so (see the Netscape case in the US).
Wait, so taking a company to task for breaking laws in Europe is anti-Americanism? Wow... Never mind the fact that Microsoft has filed antitrust complaint against other companies themselves, including Google. It's the American way, baby!
Wow, how quickly we forget. No, they did not just include it. They actively tried to undermine competition, among other things, by threatening OEMs to only bundle IE. They could do so because of their monopoly position. So they abused their monopoly to prevent competition. That's illegal.
Also, OEMs will install a "HTML viewer". No problems there. And this time they can choose whatever they want, such as Chrome, for search revenue from Google.
Google filed antitrust complaints against Microsoft. Does that mean that Google is just a crappy hobbyist project or something?
You are an idiot. First of all, this is not a lawsuit. Secondly, American companies file antitrust complaints all the time. This includes giants like Google and Microsoft.
It was real, and it worked, and forced Microsoft to change to standards mode by default in IE8:
See the bolded part there? That's Microsoft being terrified because of Opera's complaint.
The only way to teach a company is to hit their wallet.
No need. OEMs will preinstall a browser. A general package manager might be a good idea, though.
You buy a PC, it comes preinstalled with Windows, and the OEM has installed the browser of his choice on the computer.
The OEM thing is part of Microsoft unbundling IE to offer actual choice. As a convicted monopolist, Microsoft plays by different rules than everyone else.
No, it's about Microsoft tactic where it forces OEMs to bundle IE, and threatens them with "fines" if they don't. Microsoft did the deeds. They must now pay the price. OEMs will preinstall their browser of choice anyway, so new PCs will not come browser-less.
Not sure what you are referring to. It's a fact that Microsoft is a convicted monopolist, and that the company has abused its market muscle to prevent OEMs from bundling other browsers. OEMs do want to be able to do that, but Microsoft has threatened them into submission.
They are not. Microsoft has abused its market muscle to threaten OEMs into only bundling IE. OEMs do want to be able to bundle other browsers, but Microsoft has forced them not to.
No, because there's no single authority dictating which browser is to be installed. Each OEM will install his browser of chice. And OEMs do want to be able to do that, trust me. As an example, they would have a lot to gain by bundling Chrome and getting search revenue directly from Google.
It is not a lawsuit. It is a request for the EU antitrust authorities to look into Microsoft's actions in the browser market.
Oh yeah, that must be why the iPhone App Store is such a flop... Seriously, Linux distros have been doing this for ages as well.
She wouldn't be forced to do anything like that. OEMs would preinstall the browser of their choice without Microsoft forcing them to bundle IE. And OEMs do want to use other browsers.
Actually, Firefox has had a lot of trouble. 15% market share with giants like Google, Sun, IBM, etc. throwing their muscles behind it is an extremely poor result, and shows that Microsoft's actions have impeded competition.
That's your assumption. In fact, OEMs have wanted to install other browsers, but Microsoft has threatened them to keep IE.
No, since Apple is not a convicted monopolist. Monopolists play by different rules than other companies.
Actually, Microsoft itself is stripping Windows of lots of stuff. You can optionally install it later. Remember, Linux distros have had package systems for ages. You can easily install additional applications at any time. No reason why MS can't do the same.
No, because this is addressing the problem at its roots.
Actually, there is more to Opera's complaint than simply unbundling. I suggest you read it.
Actually, that is exactly what stops them from doing so. They also stopped Netscape by threatening OEMs that did so to charge them more for Windows. OEMs got discounts when bundling Windows. Without those discounts, they would make less money. So Microsoft did indeed use its market muscle to threaten OEMs not to bundle other browsers.
So even if this thing goes nowhere, Opera's complaint still forced Microsoft to default to standards mode in IE8.