"Sorry, but I'm an engineer (at least I try to be) and being honest is better than being liked universally."
And being an engineer makes you an expert on how the market works, how?
"I think from your reaction you must be somebody at Opera."
No, my reaction is purely because of the fanatical nonsense and FUD from deaf and blind open-source zealots on Slashdot.
"Hey: If u guys really want to avoid going the way of WordPerfect you should notice how the world changes."
What does this have to do with anything? I pointed out the fact that Opera is still going strong, stronger than ever, and the company has been in this business for ten years. What makes you think Opera isn't aware that the world is changing? Except it isn't. Opera has always been a commercial alternative in a world full of free competitors, yet they grow stronger and stronger.
Opera survived the dot.com bubble, and it's been profitable all year, until it had to hire more people to keep up with demand. Not exactly a company which doesn't seem to understand the market.
I now realize that I am trying to convey a message to an open-source zealot who only sees what he wants to see, and he doesn't really know anything about Opera, except it's closed-source, and therefore is bad, m'kay...
Opera has been a non-free program for years, and with a growing user base, and rapidly increasing revenues, everything's looking very bright indeed.
Opera has a kiosk mode, yes, and it works without having to hack it in or add extensions.
Anyway, extensions are a major pain in the neck. Slowdown, instability, extensions not working together, etc. It is far more convenient to just use something that works. Opera just works.
As for fast and slim, Opera is a smaller download than Firefox even with all these features built in.
"my pleas to Opera developers have fallen on deaf ears"
Most likely, you didn't take the time to read what they tried to say, namely that the problem is most likely that the site specifically targets Opera and breaks it.
"Sorry to the Opera people, but the honest truth is that when you insisted on advertising in your browser we all instinctively thought spyware, malware other stuff. You should have reacted to how the world has changed if you wanted to stay in the running..."
Opera is very much in the running! They have millions in cash, and are simply taking a strategic loss to expand, in order to make more money in the future.
Slashdot, as usual, managed to twist this into being some sort of death knell for Opera, and threw in some irrelevant nonsense about Firefox. Fact is, Firefox is irrelevant in these numbers. PC revenues are increasing, not decreasing, despite Firefox's entry in the market. But it's in the mobile market Opera is expanding, and Firefox is completely irrelevant there.
You completely failed to read the article, and notice this?
"Opera reported a net profit of $9.62 million in the first nine months of this year"
And why did Opera take a minimal loss?
"Opera has leveraged its increased sales volume to expand the company."
I know this is Slashdot, though, so I don't blame you for shooting your mouth off without knowing what you are talking about or even bothering to read the article:)
Well... It could get the real story from Slashdot, rather than FUD.
What the Slashdot story fails to mention is that Opera's revenues are skyrocketing, and Opera is taking a minimal strategic loss to be able to deliver more products, which again means far more money in the future.
And Firefox is completely irrelevant to the reported loss in Q3.
Opera 7.60 can be used with Gmail, because they added support for some non-standard DOM thing Gmail uses.
It also has support for voice browsing, and sports a more streamlined user interface.
"I dropped that bloated piece of shit"
Opera, bloated? It's a 1 MB smaller download on Windows, and that's including the 1 MB Flash plugin, and of course a full e-mail client, newsreader, chat client, RSS reader. On other platforms like Linux and Mac, Firefox is nearly twice Opera's size.
What did you say about bloat again?
"Firefox is free and absolutely better in both quality and quantity of features"
Opera has a lot more features by default than Firefox, and they are all far better integrated, and work wonderfully together. Can you use mouse gestures to go to the next page on Google, or log in with your saved username and password on a site? Didn't think so.
Firefox has extensions, but seriously, who can be bothered to play around with extensions when Opera has it all right there when installed, in a smaller and faster download?
According to Opera employees in their forums, Opera downloads are actually increasing.
Could it be that all this Firefox talk actually benefits Opera too, since it makes people aware that there are alternatives, and many research beyond Firefox, only to find that Opera perhaps suits their tastes better? Every time I see a discussion about Firefox, someone will mention Opera too.
I think Firefox's marketing campaign could be a good thing for Opera, as demonstrated by the growing download numbers from Opera.
"Since you can only download the official client from Opera, this is really easy to track."
This is not true. You can download it from all over the place. Anyone can distribute the free version.
Yeah, andit's still a smaller download than Firefox...
As for why Firefox is being used? It's lucky to be out now, that all the focus is on how terrible MSIE is. And it has the entire open-source world behind it. So even if it was crap, it would have been all over the place.
Funny, then, that Opera is both smaller and faster than Firefox, despite having all these features built in, including mail, chat, newsgroups and RSS... Opera is 1 MB smaller on Windows (or 2, actually, since the Flash plugin is included, and it's 1 MB). On other platforms, Firefox is almost twice Opera's size.
It's still there in Firefox 1.0. So the Slashdot code sucks. Sure, but Opera handles it just fine. I was just proving my point: To me, Opera works with more pages than Firefox.
"However, with mozilla's efforts to make mobile and embedded editions, opera could soon see competition there too."
The only problem is that they hope to get it down to a footprint of 64 MB, which is more than fifteen times Opera's footprint. So unless Opera for mobiles starts adding some serious bloat, it'll still be smaller and faster than Minimo.
"I like mozilla.org's structure, as a non-profit spreading gpl'd code"
I don't think it is GPL, actually. It's a separate Mozilla license thing. So... You might want to rethink that stance of yours.
"In short, Netscape was considered the Giant, and MS the "Upstart". Consensus seemed to be that MS would not be able to vanquish Netscape as long as Netscape kept innovating."
How can you even begin to compare this to Opera?
Opera has been doing browsers for nearly ten years! It started out as an alternative to Mosaic, not to NS or IE.
Not a viable business model? Then why have they survived for ten years with other free browsers available? No, that was a rhetorical question, don't answer that. No matter what you say, Opera has been doing this for a long time. It's a niche market, and they've pulled it off nicely.
As for the "Firefox business model"... Mozilla is a non-profit organization, FYI.
Sorry for the somewhat rude subject, but you are getting it all wrong. I don't understand how you could be moderated up for something as misleading as that:(
"So, firefox impacted Opera's market - no one liked to pay for anything which he can get for free."
Opera's revenues are up by 700 per cent, actually!
A third of that is PC revenue. The rest, and the fastest growing market is the mobile market.
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but Firefox is very, very irrelevant to Opera's losses in the last quarter. The losses are not due to competition, but the insane demand for Opera mobile browsers! They've gotten so many deals lately, and have expanded to the Windows Mobile platform, started delivering to Casio, a major deal with the second biggest mobile operator in Japan, and so on.
The losses are because they had to hire enough people to keep up with long term demand. So they took a short term loss. And all this was in the mobile market. Little has changed on the PC - Opera is still making lots of money there too.
So Firefox is irrelevant to Opera's losses last Q.
"This is one of the most powerful features of Firefox: it allows you to add functionality that you want, while keeping the browser itself lean & mean for the rest of us."
It is quite ironic, then, that Opera is actually a smaller download than Firefox, even with all these features (including mail, chat, rss and newsgroups!) included...;)
And Opera isn't slow at all, even with all these features! On slow systems, it is very noticeable. Opera is much faster and more responsive than other browsers.
Considering that Opera came along ages before Firefox or Mozilla (almost ten years now), I'd say that it is Gecko which created the third series of hacks. Opera was here even before Internet Explorer, I think. It was initially an alternative to Mosaic.
It passes the URL on to Google so it can send back relevant ads, that's it. It is not used to track surfing or create a user profile or anything like that. Read the privacy policy.
Some will obviously argue that "Google could be doing this anyway!". Well, so could your ISP in that case. But you aren't being as paranoid about your ISP as you are with Google, are you?
"IME Opera is the least compliant, worst rendering browser. It certainly is fast though, except when you're using JavaScript and hit an Opera bug that makes it grind to a halt."
You are obviously trolling here, so I'd say that you deserve losing some karma.
"There is less and less reason to use Opera over a free/open fully featured firefox that handles more pages."
Hmm, Opera handles more pages correctly here, and most people I know have switched to Opera, rather than away from it.
Firefox even has problems rendering Slashdot correctly! And before you ask, yes the devs know about it. That doesn't change the fact that the much-hyped Firefox even has a problem with Slashdot, easily one of the most Firefox-friendly communities there is.
"In one word: No. For god's sake, this is how Netscape got crushed."
How quickly we forget. Opera has been a commercial browser for nearly ten years. It was created initially, not as an alternative to Netscape or IE, but to Mosaic.
Netscape may have gotten crushed, but Opera is still here, and guess what, it is growing, and is stronger than ever!
Buying a browser? Not just a browser. Opera is an entire Internet suite. And it's a smaller download than Firefox to boot, with all these things built in.
Slashdot Mirror
Opera survived the dot.com bubble, and it's been profitable all year, until it had to hire more people to keep up with demand. Not exactly a company which doesn't seem to understand the market.
I now realize that I am trying to convey a message to an open-source zealot who only sees what he wants to see, and he doesn't really know anything about Opera, except it's closed-source, and therefore is bad, m'kay...
Opera has been a non-free program for years, and with a growing user base, and rapidly increasing revenues, everything's looking very bright indeed.
And I think the "variable scope bugs" are probably more a matter of browser sniffing again.
Anyway, extensions are a major pain in the neck. Slowdown, instability, extensions not working together, etc. It is far more convenient to just use something that works. Opera just works.
As for fast and slim, Opera is a smaller download than Firefox even with all these features built in.
As for "no one cares", tell that to all the mobile users who finally have a full browser which actually works on their mobile.
The problem isn't that Opera can't handle badly coded sites. The biggest problem today is that sites block Opera on purpose or use browser detection to send it broken code. Try it yourself, by completely hiding that you are using Opera.
Most likely, you didn't take the time to read what they tried to say, namely that the problem is most likely that the site specifically targets Opera and breaks it.What are you FUDding about anyway? Opera 7 has a quirks mode and proper DOM support.
Opera is very much in the running! They have millions in cash, and are simply taking a strategic loss to expand, in order to make more money in the future.
Slashdot, as usual, managed to twist this into being some sort of death knell for Opera, and threw in some irrelevant nonsense about Firefox. Fact is, Firefox is irrelevant in these numbers. PC revenues are increasing, not decreasing, despite Firefox's entry in the market. But it's in the mobile market Opera is expanding, and Firefox is completely irrelevant there.
You completely failed to read the article, and notice this?
"Opera reported a net profit of $9.62 million in the first nine months of this year"
And why did Opera take a minimal loss?
"Opera has leveraged its increased sales volume to expand the company."
I know this is Slashdot, though, so I don't blame you for shooting your mouth off without knowing what you are talking about or even bothering to read the article :)
What the Slashdot story fails to mention is that Opera's revenues are skyrocketing, and Opera is taking a minimal strategic loss to be able to deliver more products, which again means far more money in the future.
And Firefox is completely irrelevant to the reported loss in Q3.
Sigh.
It also has support for voice browsing, and sports a more streamlined user interface.
Opera, bloated? It's a 1 MB smaller download on Windows, and that's including the 1 MB Flash plugin, and of course a full e-mail client, newsreader, chat client, RSS reader. On other platforms like Linux and Mac, Firefox is nearly twice Opera's size.What did you say about bloat again?
Opera has a lot more features by default than Firefox, and they are all far better integrated, and work wonderfully together. Can you use mouse gestures to go to the next page on Google, or log in with your saved username and password on a site? Didn't think so.Firefox has extensions, but seriously, who can be bothered to play around with extensions when Opera has it all right there when installed, in a smaller and faster download?
Opera Software is a Norwegian company.Could it be that all this Firefox talk actually benefits Opera too, since it makes people aware that there are alternatives, and many research beyond Firefox, only to find that Opera perhaps suits their tastes better? Every time I see a discussion about Firefox, someone will mention Opera too.
I think Firefox's marketing campaign could be a good thing for Opera, as demonstrated by the growing download numbers from Opera.
This is not true. You can download it from all over the place. Anyone can distribute the free version.As for why Firefox is being used? It's lucky to be out now, that all the focus is on how terrible MSIE is. And it has the entire open-source world behind it. So even if it was crap, it would have been all over the place.
It's still there in Firefox 1.0. So the Slashdot code sucks. Sure, but Opera handles it just fine. I was just proving my point: To me, Opera works with more pages than Firefox.
It's not just a US thing.
The fact that Opera's revenues are up 700 per cent speaks for itself.
Opera has been doing browsers for nearly ten years! It started out as an alternative to Mosaic, not to NS or IE.
Not a viable business model? Then why have they survived for ten years with other free browsers available? No, that was a rhetorical question, don't answer that. No matter what you say, Opera has been doing this for a long time. It's a niche market, and they've pulled it off nicely.
As for the "Firefox business model"... Mozilla is a non-profit organization, FYI.
A third of that is PC revenue. The rest, and the fastest growing market is the mobile market.
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but Firefox is very, very irrelevant to Opera's losses in the last quarter. The losses are not due to competition, but the insane demand for Opera mobile browsers! They've gotten so many deals lately, and have expanded to the Windows Mobile platform, started delivering to Casio, a major deal with the second biggest mobile operator in Japan, and so on.
The losses are because they had to hire enough people to keep up with long term demand. So they took a short term loss. And all this was in the mobile market. Little has changed on the PC - Opera is still making lots of money there too.
So Firefox is irrelevant to Opera's losses last Q.
And Opera isn't slow at all, even with all these features! On slow systems, it is very noticeable. Opera is much faster and more responsive than other browsers.
Considering that Opera came along ages before Firefox or Mozilla (almost ten years now), I'd say that it is Gecko which created the third series of hacks. Opera was here even before Internet Explorer, I think. It was initially an alternative to Mosaic.
It passes the URL on to Google so it can send back relevant ads, that's it. It is not used to track surfing or create a user profile or anything like that. Read the privacy policy.
Some will obviously argue that "Google could be doing this anyway!". Well, so could your ISP in that case. But you aren't being as paranoid about your ISP as you are with Google, are you?
Opera is very standards compliant, and the JavaScript/DOM support in Opera 7 is fantastic. It's extremely fast, as a matter of fact.
Firefox even has problems rendering Slashdot correctly! And before you ask, yes the devs know about it. That doesn't change the fact that the much-hyped Firefox even has a problem with Slashdot, easily one of the most Firefox-friendly communities there is.
Netscape may have gotten crushed, but Opera is still here, and guess what, it is growing, and is stronger than ever!
Buying a browser? Not just a browser. Opera is an entire Internet suite. And it's a smaller download than Firefox to boot, with all these things built in.