Good job completely ignoring most of what I wrote, and twisting the rest. I just explained to you why more services like Opera Mini are a good thing for the Chinese: More services = more to keep track of = requires more time and resources = more difficult to control.
Opera has a lot of business customers in China (OEMs, operators, etc.). Unlike you, they know a bit about business, and realize that they need to stay close to their customers. Yes, they do need to be there. Not as hostages, but to keep their business customers and build their user base. Also, they place Opera Mini servers in popular areas to make things faster. So since China has a lot of people, they needed servers in China to cope with the demand. You are evidently completely ignorant of Opera's business model, so I suggest you shut up about it instead of making assumptions.
If anyone is being deceptive, it is you. You live in your little Commie world where anyone who runs a business is automatically evil, and there is no conceivable way that a company can be a force for good. Pathetic indeed.
Your question about uploads can, as you almost said yourself, be said about BitTorrent and other P2P technologies. In fact, those are more likely to use bandwidth because there you constantly get new people downloading from you automatically.
Naive? If the authorities come knocking on your door, THEY involved you. You are rather naive if you think the authorities would bother to contact the Oslo HQ when they could just threaten the local office. And especially due to the timezone differences.
You keep saying this. Even though my reply explicitly rebuts it.
It does not such thing. You merely claimed that it wasn't like that without any kind of argument.
Joe the Censor has to watch all sorts of things. But, lucky for him, he knows that 90 percent of the things he monitors are made by his friends. He asked his friends to make changes to the things so that he doesn't have to worry that they might be used for something Joe doesn't like.
Google, Opera, etc. are not Joe the Censor's friend. Furthermore, the government is not a single person, but rather a huge bureaucracy, and the more they have to oversee, the less control. Huge bureaucracies are very slow and inefficient.
And, what's this? Here's a thing called "Opera" that's doing baaaad things! But Joe's not worried, because Opera likes to make money. So, Joe knows that they'll soon be good friends!
Unfortunately, your argument is as pathetic as you are. The government is not a single person, and companies like Google and Opera are not friends of the government. They are merely forced to comply with local laws and regulations to be able to stay. And it's a good thing that they stay beucase as I have shown, more services = more chances of loopholes.
So what you are saying is that you can't respond to what I'm actually writing, so you have to try and change the subject? Hint: Opera has an office in China.
Except when companies (like Opera -- and many many many others) graciously cooperate in neutering their products so that they can access China's markets, that makes the censors' jobs easier.
They don't "graciously cooperate", they are forced to. And no, it does not make the censors' job easier. The more services, the more work to keep track of everything.
These companies are complicit in China's censorship.
No, they are forced to, and at the same time they are offering choice.
Providing a censored version of Opera HURTS the people of China by making the work of their censors easier.
I have just demonstrated using simple logi and fact how this claim is wrong. More things = more to keep track of = requires more time and resources = more difficult to control.
To wit, the more interesting question you're not asking is why does China government allow their people to use Opera or Mozilla (or Microsoft or Cisco or IBM or Dell, etc.)? Why not just force everyone in the country to access The People's Internet on The People's Computer with The People's Browser?
Exactly what you said. They don't want to cut themselves off completely.
Working with the demands of the government censors HURTS the people of China by making the effects of censorship less apparent (and more pernicious).
This is false. Because of actions like these, the Chinese become increasingly aware of what's going on, as do foreigners.
I notice that you once again ignored my points. I said "fuck you" because I'm sick and tired of dishonest people like you. The more services, the less control. Face the facts, and stop being an asshole.
It doesn't matter. The EULAs say no servers, and yet people run all sorts of apps that can accept incoming connections. "Wimpy web servers" weren't even this easily available when those EULAs were made.
I just explained to you how Opera being completely shut down in Chine would have been detrimental to the freedom of the Chinese people, but you chose to ignore it and rant on.
The government doesn't see Opera as a problem, but the fact is that people have already discovered several ways to work around the firewall in Opera Mini. The more services, the more potential holes, and the more difficulty for the government to enforce the firewall.
Opera being completely blocked would not have helped at all. It would simply have deprived the Chinese people of choice and possible ways to access the uncensored web.
Fuck you. You keep ignoring the points I'm making. You are evidently only here to spew your pre-prepared garbage. You have yet to address the fact that more services = more work for the government = less oversight = more chances that there are holes in the firewall. How is the Chinese people better off with fewer choices and possibilities? They aren't.
Opera pulling out would make it easier for the government to maintain control. Opera pulling out would do exactly nothing to prevent the firewall from working. Fuck you again for fucking spewing out your inane nonsense without even fucking addressing my points.
By the way, Google did what Opera did (or worse). They were forced to block Chinese people from their international search engine, and provide a censored version. As did Yahoo, Microsoft, and many other companies. But more services = more work for the government = more potential holes in the firewall = good for the Chinese people.
That's funny... I haven't heard anything about Firefox or Chrome doing what Opera did.
That's because neither Firefox nor Chrome work like Opera Mini. They are like Opera Mobile, but Opera Mini is a thin client which needs a server to handle websites, because that's the only way it can work on low-end phones.
Opera certainly had a choice. They chose to support the censorship in China in exchange for more market-share. Nokia and friends helped China to set up the firewall in the first place for the market-share too; are their actions excusable as well?
Why did you ignore the part where I very clearly explained how Opera pulling out would be detrimental to the Chinese people because they would lose a way to access the web, and the fewer services, the easier it is for the government to keep track and plug all holes. As it is today, there are in fact several ways to circumvent the firewall using Opera Mini. If Opera pulled out, they would be completely blocked, and those holes would disappear.
Your view of the situation is simplstic, naive, and frankly, scary. I thought people were willing to use their brains!
Put simply, all those computers can talk to each other. And they can be made to do so extremely easily. If you can't imagine the possibilities of that, you need to think some more about it:)
If you check out some of the Unite apps, it isn't even necessarily about sharing.
Sigh. Did you read the rest of the comment? Clearly not. How is it the right thing to deprive the Chinese people of yet another way to work around the censorship? The more services like Opera's, the more difficult for the government to keep on top of everything, the more holes in the firewall to exploit. If everyone pulled out and only a couple of services remained, the government would have an easier time enforcing the rules. Opera out = no way to exploit the "holes" letting Opera Mini users circumvent the firewall (yes, people have found a way to do it). Use your brain.
They chose to comply with the government to keep their product in that market
No, they chose to comply in order to avoid trouble like arrests of their Chinese employees and such.
But you didn't answer the part of my comment that dealt with how staying in the market helps the Chinese people, and how pulling out would be detrimental to their freedom. Again: More services = more work for the government = less oversight = more chances that there are holes in the firewall.
As it happens, there are several ways to access the uncensored web through Opera Mini even after this. If Opera pulled out, these holes would be gone forever, and there would be no opportunities to open new ones. Your brain. Use it.
This web server is nothing like the web servers those contracts were written to cover. Unite can't handle a fraction of the traffic of a real web server. So basically it's a non-issue.
Did you read the rest of the comment? Clearly not. How is it the right thing to deprive the Chinese people of yet another way to work around the censorship? The more services like Opera's, the more difficult for the government to keep on top of everything, the more holes in the firewall to exploit. If everyone pulled out and only a couple of services remained, the government would have an easier time enforcing the rules. Use your brain.
No, they are not. They were ordered by the government to redirect Chinese users from the international version to the Chinese version, which uses servers inside the firewall, where Opera's ISP is doing the blocking.
Problem is, we already have web servers, p2p, ftp etc. and they are stable, mature and bug-free. Why your entirely new, potentially untrustworthy integrated solution? It's hi-fi seperates vs. computer speakers again...
Exactly. Hi-Fi = sites you have to sign up for, upload, invite your friends to, get them to sign up, log in, etc. All you do with Unite is send them an URL to whatever they need, and it's done. Also, Unite is much, much easier to use than standard web servers, P2P, FTP, etc. And it can be added to with new application which can be installed with a single click.
Someone asked: "How does not having any kind of access to Opera Mobile/Google/etc helps the people in China, compared to having a censored version?"
I haven't seen a response to that yet.
What were Opera's alternatives?
Refuse? They would be thrown in jail, and the Chinese office would be history.
Pull out? How would that help anyone? It would just deprive the Chinese people of another way to access the web. The more ways to access the web, the more work for the government when they are trying to censor it. There needs to be as many ways to access the web as possible, because the more there are, the more difficult it is to police, and the easier it is to poke holes in the firewall.
You are the one who bows in the name of money. You are so blinded by your ideology that you can't see the benefits of fighting monoculture.
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Opera has a lot of business customers in China (OEMs, operators, etc.). Unlike you, they know a bit about business, and realize that they need to stay close to their customers. Yes, they do need to be there. Not as hostages, but to keep their business customers and build their user base. Also, they place Opera Mini servers in popular areas to make things faster. So since China has a lot of people, they needed servers in China to cope with the demand. You are evidently completely ignorant of Opera's business model, so I suggest you shut up about it instead of making assumptions.
If anyone is being deceptive, it is you. You live in your little Commie world where anyone who runs a business is automatically evil, and there is no conceivable way that a company can be a force for good. Pathetic indeed.
Your question about uploads can, as you almost said yourself, be said about BitTorrent and other P2P technologies. In fact, those are more likely to use bandwidth because there you constantly get new people downloading from you automatically.
Naive? If the authorities come knocking on your door, THEY involved you. You are rather naive if you think the authorities would bother to contact the Oslo HQ when they could just threaten the local office. And especially due to the timezone differences.
Real examples of what?
It does not such thing. You merely claimed that it wasn't like that without any kind of argument.
Google, Opera, etc. are not Joe the Censor's friend. Furthermore, the government is not a single person, but rather a huge bureaucracy, and the more they have to oversee, the less control. Huge bureaucracies are very slow and inefficient.
Unfortunately, your argument is as pathetic as you are. The government is not a single person, and companies like Google and Opera are not friends of the government. They are merely forced to comply with local laws and regulations to be able to stay. And it's a good thing that they stay beucase as I have shown, more services = more chances of loopholes.
So what you are saying is that you can't respond to what I'm actually writing, so you have to try and change the subject? Hint: Opera has an office in China.
They don't "graciously cooperate", they are forced to. And no, it does not make the censors' job easier. The more services, the more work to keep track of everything.
No, they are forced to, and at the same time they are offering choice.
I have just demonstrated using simple logi and fact how this claim is wrong. More things = more to keep track of = requires more time and resources = more difficult to control.
Exactly what you said. They don't want to cut themselves off completely.
This is false. Because of actions like these, the Chinese become increasingly aware of what's going on, as do foreigners.
I notice that you once again ignored my points. I said "fuck you" because I'm sick and tired of dishonest people like you. The more services, the less control. Face the facts, and stop being an asshole.
Why? What makes the iPhone OS so great compared to Android?
The top bosses seem to be very aware of both Android and Chrome OS, so I'm not sure what you are saying.
It doesn't matter. The EULAs say no servers, and yet people run all sorts of apps that can accept incoming connections. "Wimpy web servers" weren't even this easily available when those EULAs were made.
I just explained to you how Opera being completely shut down in Chine would have been detrimental to the freedom of the Chinese people, but you chose to ignore it and rant on.
The government doesn't see Opera as a problem, but the fact is that people have already discovered several ways to work around the firewall in Opera Mini. The more services, the more potential holes, and the more difficulty for the government to enforce the firewall.
Opera being completely blocked would not have helped at all. It would simply have deprived the Chinese people of choice and possible ways to access the uncensored web.
Opera pulling out would make it easier for the government to maintain control. Opera pulling out would do exactly nothing to prevent the firewall from working. Fuck you again for fucking spewing out your inane nonsense without even fucking addressing my points.
By the way, Google did what Opera did (or worse). They were forced to block Chinese people from their international search engine, and provide a censored version. As did Yahoo, Microsoft, and many other companies. But more services = more work for the government = more potential holes in the firewall = good for the Chinese people.
That's because neither Firefox nor Chrome work like Opera Mini. They are like Opera Mobile, but Opera Mini is a thin client which needs a server to handle websites, because that's the only way it can work on low-end phones.
Why did you ignore the part where I very clearly explained how Opera pulling out would be detrimental to the Chinese people because they would lose a way to access the web, and the fewer services, the easier it is for the government to keep track and plug all holes. As it is today, there are in fact several ways to circumvent the firewall using Opera Mini. If Opera pulled out, they would be completely blocked, and those holes would disappear.
Your view of the situation is simplstic, naive, and frankly, scary. I thought people were willing to use their brains!
If you check out some of the Unite apps, it isn't even necessarily about sharing.
Sigh. Did you read the rest of the comment? Clearly not. How is it the right thing to deprive the Chinese people of yet another way to work around the censorship? The more services like Opera's, the more difficult for the government to keep on top of everything, the more holes in the firewall to exploit. If everyone pulled out and only a couple of services remained, the government would have an easier time enforcing the rules. Opera out = no way to exploit the "holes" letting Opera Mini users circumvent the firewall (yes, people have found a way to do it). Use your brain.
Opera will obviously support the open format. The other ones are full of patent crap, and you have to pay through your nose for it.
No, they chose to comply in order to avoid trouble like arrests of their Chinese employees and such.
But you didn't answer the part of my comment that dealt with how staying in the market helps the Chinese people, and how pulling out would be detrimental to their freedom. Again: More services = more work for the government = less oversight = more chances that there are holes in the firewall.
As it happens, there are several ways to access the uncensored web through Opera Mini even after this. If Opera pulled out, these holes would be gone forever, and there would be no opportunities to open new ones. Your brain. Use it.
This web server is nothing like the web servers those contracts were written to cover. Unite can't handle a fraction of the traffic of a real web server. So basically it's a non-issue.
Those revenues for Mozilla are including revenues from MozCo, which employes a couple of hundred people.
Did you read the rest of the comment? Clearly not. How is it the right thing to deprive the Chinese people of yet another way to work around the censorship? The more services like Opera's, the more difficult for the government to keep on top of everything, the more holes in the firewall to exploit. If everyone pulled out and only a couple of services remained, the government would have an easier time enforcing the rules. Use your brain.
No, they are not. They were ordered by the government to redirect Chinese users from the international version to the Chinese version, which uses servers inside the firewall, where Opera's ISP is doing the blocking.
Exactly. Hi-Fi = sites you have to sign up for, upload, invite your friends to, get them to sign up, log in, etc. All you do with Unite is send them an URL to whatever they need, and it's done. Also, Unite is much, much easier to use than standard web servers, P2P, FTP, etc. And it can be added to with new application which can be installed with a single click.
I haven't seen a response to that yet.
What were Opera's alternatives?
Refuse? They would be thrown in jail, and the Chinese office would be history.
Pull out? How would that help anyone? It would just deprive the Chinese people of another way to access the web. The more ways to access the web, the more work for the government when they are trying to censor it. There needs to be as many ways to access the web as possible, because the more there are, the more difficult it is to police, and the easier it is to poke holes in the firewall.
You are the one who bows in the name of money. You are so blinded by your ideology that you can't see the benefits of fighting monoculture.