If you are a libertarian then it's time for you to turn in your card. You cannot believe in libertarianism and censorship at the same time as these concepts are diametrically opposed to one another.
I'm sure you have nothing but the noblest goals in mind when you suggest this censorship, but for the love of God (or whatever if you're atheist/agnostic/polydeistic), open your eyes! You cannot define "bad" and "good", "right" and "wrong" anymore than you can define what is the best type of music, or the funniest joke, or anything else that is completely relative to who is on the receiving end of such judgements.
Are some things patently wrong? Murder, rape, theft, and many others are clearly wrong. Why? Because it allows one individual to affect another without their consent. You should note that censorship has the exact same ability.
You want a working definition of perfect liberty? Here's mine:
- You are free to say anything, do anything, and think anything you want so long as your actions do not prevent someone else from doing the same.
- You have no obligations whatsoever to anyone in the world except yourself. I have none to you, either. This does not preclude us from being decent to one another, but it is not required. You can hate me, I can hate you, and as long as that's as far as it goes, neither of us has to care. If you choose to let it bug you (or I do the same) then that shows your/our lack of backbone and thin skin. I will still help you change a flat tire in the rain at midnight when it's freezing outside, but only because I want to, not because I'm required to. And if you're a jerk, you have the right to be freezing wet and cold changing the tire yourself. Perhaps it will motivate you to rethink being a jerk, if you were one.
- If you seek to deprive anyone of their life, liberty, or ability to pursue happiness, you have forfeited all of YOUR rights to the same. God have mercy on your soul, because I will not.
- You have the right to PURSUE happiness. Attaining it is up to you, and is not my problem if you don't get it. I work hard to be happy, and I expect to enjoy my happiness. Don't come crying to me if you can't get happiness. Try thinking a little while why you're NOT happy and then figure out what you yourself can do about it without sponging off the rest of society.
- Last, but certainly not least, go to www.lp.org. Libertarians are truly the political party that values YOUR liberties more than any other in the world.
Good point. I'd like to reinforce you by reminding everyone out there that Hitler did his best work (Mein Kampf) while in jail, and that after he was released he used his imprisonment as justification for his "cause". Had he been allowed to spew his hatred in a public square for all to hear perhaps people would have tired of his tirade and let him go hoarse.
Perhaps you should avail yourself the use of www.m-w.com, the Merriam-Webster online dictionary. You will note that "liberty", "liberal", and "libertarian" don't have very much in common other than spelling. You want to talk Latin linguistic roots? Fine, but we're not.
Liberty = freedom, the rarest element in the Universe, more precious than life itself.
Liberal = someone whose interpretation of laws and liberties leans towards "if it feels good, do it" and "hey, you can't say that to me, I'VE GOT RIGHTS!" and is primarily responsible for moral relativism (there is no right or wrong, good or bad, those are just phrases cooked up by the ruling elite to oppress the masses). In short, lots of rights, no responsibility for actions.
Libertarian = political affiliation dedicated to the idea of individual rights AND individual responsibility. Also advocates strict interpretation of Constitution (in U.S.) such that all powers not expressly granted to the Federal Gov't are reserved for the States or the people. Cherishes smaller government, lower taxes, and less government intrusion into personal lives. www.lp.org. I'm a member.
Communist/Socialist = a liberal who went just a tad too far.
Your reply makes no sense whatsoever. What is your point? That people will hate each other because they are different? Well, duh! That's been true since the dawn of humanity. It doesn't make it right, anymore than censoring or oppressing a thought, ANY THOUGHT, is right.
I noted someone else's comment earlier that it's very easy to agree on free speech when someone agrees with you. The rubber does indeed meet the road when someone is saying something you DISAGREE with. After all, would you seek to grant yourself a right (free speech) that you would deny someone else because you disagree with them? What if someone tried to do that to you?
The U.N. can do whatever it wants, say whatever it wants, and think whatever it wants. And so can the U.S.
Just like you have the right to remove yourself from an organization that seems to detest you, the U.S. can do the same. It is not censorship, it is free choice. The U.S. is not threatening the U.N. with nuclear weapons if they don't shut up, we are just opting out. And we can take our money, soldiers, and resources elsewhere to friendlier shores and more benevolent allies, if any exist.
And if they don't, we can go it alone. Our choices will lead to rewards or punishments depending upon the logic of our choices, but they remain our choices, and we have the freedom to make those choices.
It's all about choice, my friend, or lack thereof. You see, in the land of the free, we have a lot of choice here. We like it. We're used to it. Most of us even value it. A few of us value it even more than life itself, for what is life if someone else is controlling you?
Is American fault-free and perfect? Of course not. But in a world filled with tinpot dictators, communists, fascists, socialists, and religious theocracies, we're the only place where you can burn a flag, call the president an ass, publish a pamphlet that says Democrats are stupid, or protest government policies publicly without facing goverment retribution. Try that in Afghanistan (you'd be put to death) or even an "enlightened" country like, say, France (you'd be jailed).
Y'know, I think this "hate" speech ban is the right way to go. I'm sure there are a lot of other people out there who agree with me. We should do something to band together, something to show that we all think this "hate" ban is a good thing. I propose that we all wear some something similar so that we can easily spot like-thinking friends in a crowd. Brown shirts are very easily noticed, so I propose that everyone who supports a ban on hatred to wear brown shirts every day from this point forward.
Once we have sufficient numbers of "brown shirts", we might want to come up with something snazzier to show that we're organized and "trendy". I think we should come up with something that's easy to spot in a crowd. How about armbands? Sure, they're a little old fashioned, but retro is trendy these days, no?
And to make sure the public is made aware that our legions of brownshirts and armbands are heard in our united front against hatred, we ought to stage some public rallies! I propose something dramatic: let's gather as much hate-filled literature as we can and publicly burn it! After all, what patriotic, faithful, GOOD citizen could be against the destruction of hate?
I have a glorious vision of all of us, dancing around a huge pyre of burning books, wearing our brown shirts and armbands, preaching to the masses, exhorting them to destroy hatred wherever it is found! Quick! Take a picture!
...wait...
Now, go find a newsreel, circa 1938, Berlin, Germany. Compare the pictures.
How far we've come...and how short a distance we've travelled. Is it ironic to anyone other than me that Europe, twice a charnel house in one century, is proposing to institute the very fascism and censorship that brought about such ruination and destruction half a century ago? Will we never learn?
I forgot, we can't learn...history books mentioning hateful times have been banned or rewritten. Can't have hate around, can we?
Just because the tea-totallers and the morality police exist here does not mean that Americans appreciate it or support it. I personally find it silly that it's deemed great to show someone being killed on prime-time television, but illegal to show bare breasts. After all, at some point in almost all of our lives we saw bare breasts -- they provided pretty much all our meals.
You say you're 100% against censorship but would choose it if forced to. I say you do NOT have to accept it. Right now in the U.S. you legally have the right to say pretty much anything you want (excepting slander, etc.). ANY law made after that point REDUCES your freedom.
Note my sig, and understand that freedom is the greatest gift you have ever been given in your life. It was given at birth, and whatever shreds you have left of it exists at the sufferance of your government. Do not hand over the reigns of your life so willingly, as those doing the driving just might not have your best interests in mind right now, or tomorrow, or next year.
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If you are a libertarian then it's time for you to turn in your card. You cannot believe in libertarianism and censorship at the same time as these concepts are diametrically opposed to one another.
I'm sure you have nothing but the noblest goals in mind when you suggest this censorship, but for the love of God (or whatever if you're atheist/agnostic/polydeistic), open your eyes! You cannot define "bad" and "good", "right" and "wrong" anymore than you can define what is the best type of music, or the funniest joke, or anything else that is completely relative to who is on the receiving end of such judgements.
Are some things patently wrong? Murder, rape, theft, and many others are clearly wrong. Why? Because it allows one individual to affect another without their consent. You should note that censorship has the exact same ability.
You want a working definition of perfect liberty? Here's mine:
- You are free to say anything, do anything, and think anything you want so long as your actions do not prevent someone else from doing the same.
- You have no obligations whatsoever to anyone in the world except yourself. I have none to you, either. This does not preclude us from being decent to one another, but it is not required. You can hate me, I can hate you, and as long as that's as far as it goes, neither of us has to care. If you choose to let it bug you (or I do the same) then that shows your/our lack of backbone and thin skin. I will still help you change a flat tire in the rain at midnight when it's freezing outside, but only because I want to, not because I'm required to. And if you're a jerk, you have the right to be freezing wet and cold changing the tire yourself. Perhaps it will motivate you to rethink being a jerk, if you were one.
- If you seek to deprive anyone of their life, liberty, or ability to pursue happiness, you have forfeited all of YOUR rights to the same. God have mercy on your soul, because I will not.
- You have the right to PURSUE happiness. Attaining it is up to you, and is not my problem if you don't get it. I work hard to be happy, and I expect to enjoy my happiness. Don't come crying to me if you can't get happiness. Try thinking a little while why you're NOT happy and then figure out what you yourself can do about it without sponging off the rest of society.
- Last, but certainly not least, go to www.lp.org. Libertarians are truly the political party that values YOUR liberties more than any other in the world.
Good point. I'd like to reinforce you by reminding everyone out there that Hitler did his best work (Mein Kampf) while in jail, and that after he was released he used his imprisonment as justification for his "cause". Had he been allowed to spew his hatred in a public square for all to hear perhaps people would have tired of his tirade and let him go hoarse.
Perhaps you should avail yourself the use of www.m-w.com, the Merriam-Webster online dictionary. You will note that "liberty", "liberal", and "libertarian" don't have very much in common other than spelling. You want to talk Latin linguistic roots? Fine, but we're not.
Liberty = freedom, the rarest element in the Universe, more precious than life itself.
Liberal = someone whose interpretation of laws and liberties leans towards "if it feels good, do it" and "hey, you can't say that to me, I'VE GOT RIGHTS!" and is primarily responsible for moral relativism (there is no right or wrong, good or bad, those are just phrases cooked up by the ruling elite to oppress the masses). In short, lots of rights, no responsibility for actions.
Libertarian = political affiliation dedicated to the idea of individual rights AND individual responsibility. Also advocates strict interpretation of Constitution (in U.S.) such that all powers not expressly granted to the Federal Gov't are reserved for the States or the people. Cherishes smaller government, lower taxes, and less government intrusion into personal lives. www.lp.org. I'm a member.
Communist/Socialist = a liberal who went just a tad too far.
Fascist = Conservatives who went WAY too far.
Your reply makes no sense whatsoever. What is your point? That people will hate each other because they are different? Well, duh! That's been true since the dawn of humanity. It doesn't make it right, anymore than censoring or oppressing a thought, ANY THOUGHT, is right.
I noted someone else's comment earlier that it's very easy to agree on free speech when someone agrees with you. The rubber does indeed meet the road when someone is saying something you DISAGREE with. After all, would you seek to grant yourself a right (free speech) that you would deny someone else because you disagree with them? What if someone tried to do that to you?
The U.N. can do whatever it wants, say whatever it wants, and think whatever it wants. And so can the U.S.
Just like you have the right to remove yourself from an organization that seems to detest you, the U.S. can do the same. It is not censorship, it is free choice. The U.S. is not threatening the U.N. with nuclear weapons if they don't shut up, we are just opting out. And we can take our money, soldiers, and resources elsewhere to friendlier shores and more benevolent allies, if any exist.
And if they don't, we can go it alone. Our choices will lead to rewards or punishments depending upon the logic of our choices, but they remain our choices, and we have the freedom to make those choices.
It's all about choice, my friend, or lack thereof. You see, in the land of the free, we have a lot of choice here. We like it. We're used to it. Most of us even value it. A few of us value it even more than life itself, for what is life if someone else is controlling you?
Is American fault-free and perfect? Of course not. But in a world filled with tinpot dictators, communists, fascists, socialists, and religious theocracies, we're the only place where you can burn a flag, call the president an ass, publish a pamphlet that says Democrats are stupid, or protest government policies publicly without facing goverment retribution. Try that in Afghanistan (you'd be put to death) or even an "enlightened" country like, say, France (you'd be jailed).
Y'know, I think this "hate" speech ban is the right way to go. I'm sure there are a lot of other people out there who agree with me. We should do something to band together, something to show that we all think this "hate" ban is a good thing. I propose that we all wear some something similar so that we can easily spot like-thinking friends in a crowd. Brown shirts are very easily noticed, so I propose that everyone who supports a ban on hatred to wear brown shirts every day from this point forward.
Once we have sufficient numbers of "brown shirts", we might want to come up with something snazzier to show that we're organized and "trendy". I think we should come up with something that's easy to spot in a crowd. How about armbands? Sure, they're a little old fashioned, but retro is trendy these days, no?
And to make sure the public is made aware that our legions of brownshirts and armbands are heard in our united front against hatred, we ought to stage some public rallies! I propose something dramatic: let's gather as much hate-filled literature as we can and publicly burn it! After all, what patriotic, faithful, GOOD citizen could be against the destruction of hate?
I have a glorious vision of all of us, dancing around a huge pyre of burning books, wearing our brown shirts and armbands, preaching to the masses, exhorting them to destroy hatred wherever it is found! Quick! Take a picture!
...wait...
Now, go find a newsreel, circa 1938, Berlin, Germany. Compare the pictures.
How far we've come...and how short a distance we've travelled. Is it ironic to anyone other than me that Europe, twice a charnel house in one century, is proposing to institute the very fascism and censorship that brought about such ruination and destruction half a century ago? Will we never learn?
I forgot, we can't learn...history books mentioning hateful times have been banned or rewritten. Can't have hate around, can we?
Somebody MOD THIS UP! Why are only the pro-censorship posts getting modded up? Are the liberals running the asylum?
Just because the tea-totallers and the morality police exist here does not mean that Americans appreciate it or support it. I personally find it silly that it's deemed great to show someone being killed on prime-time television, but illegal to show bare breasts. After all, at some point in almost all of our lives we saw bare breasts -- they provided pretty much all our meals. You say you're 100% against censorship but would choose it if forced to. I say you do NOT have to accept it. Right now in the U.S. you legally have the right to say pretty much anything you want (excepting slander, etc.). ANY law made after that point REDUCES your freedom. Note my sig, and understand that freedom is the greatest gift you have ever been given in your life. It was given at birth, and whatever shreds you have left of it exists at the sufferance of your government. Do not hand over the reigns of your life so willingly, as those doing the driving just might not have your best interests in mind right now, or tomorrow, or next year.