I'm fully aware of all the crap you keep bringing up.
So why did you lie about what I said?
Since you knew that stuff, and came to a different conclusion, I realized this argument could never be productive.
That's an irrational conclusion. Perhaps you engage in arguments only to convince people to agree with your conclusions; I do not.
You try to bait me into "proving" that Moses could not have written Genesis.
Bullshit. You made an irrational claim you cannot back up. I simply challenged you to back it up, and instead of admitting you can't, you lied about me and pretended that I could not be reasoned with.
I could give you the 10 standard points on that from the Age of Reason
Except, of course, that Paine proved nothing. I didn't ask for points or arguments, I asked for PROOF, that you said you had. But you don't.
You would say that it was initially written by him...
I would say it COULD have been, and that you cannot PROVE otherwise. Which is true. So why not just admit your error?
how can you claim the book is 99% pure
I never did. What I said -- I won't trouble you to look up my comment -- was, "All serious scholars agree that the New Testament, in its current form that we have today, is better than 99 percent pure." As you well know, I hope, Genesis is not in the New Testament.
Here's the thing there, it won't get us anywhere.
If you want to remain ignorant, then yes, you'll never get anywhere. I am giving you facts you don't understand, which I've already pointed out and backed up, and which you dishonestly referred to as saying 'simply "false."'
The only thing keeping us from "getting anywhere" is your dishonesty.
Yes, I'm familiar with Frederic Kenyon
Not well enough to recognize that he was a scientist and historian first. You dishonestly dismiss his work as that of a "biblical scholar," and pretend that he reached his conclusion first. How petty of you, especially when on THIS subject -- the purity of the New Testament -- it is the ANTI-Christians who are the ones who are left out in the cold of the mainstream views. They are the ones, such as the Jesus Seminar members, who explicitly gather to drum up evidence against the Bible (using the most extraordinarily weak methodology imaginable), putting their bias front and center.
Again: you can play these fallacious games of questioning motives, but what matters is what was said, and what backs it up. You cannot argue against the evidence, so you lie about what I said and ignore what the scholars say because of perceived "bias."
It's dishonest.
I realize the Bible is not science
But analysis of it IS science, to a large degree, and much of that science argues against your claims. Again: you attack motives instead of sticking to the facts. It's dishonest.
And Yes, I'm also familiar with a the handful of Christ references you dug up, well like 3 of them anyways, and all of them are of disputed Authenticity particularly the one from Jospehus Flavius
You're lying. The one from Josephus is the ONLY one with disputed authenticity, and MOST scholars today believe that the original Josephus work DID mention Jesus, but just using different language. As I already said, and as you -- true to your form -- ignored.
The but fact is, we both have the facts...
Except that none of mine has been rebutted, and all of yours have been rebutted. And so you dishonestly pretend that the discussion itself is fruitless, when you find that your arguments are falling down.
The work of AGW scientists does not follow the scientific method.
Um...yes they do?
In a micro sense, yes. But in the sense of drawing conclusions about global warming, no, they do not.
Do you even know what the scientific method is?
Yes. Let's go through it, since you're not understanding.
Characterizations. Observations, measurements, and so on. Check.
Hypotheses. Coming up with explanations for the observations. Check.
Predictions. Reasoning and logic and statements about what will happen based on those hypotheses, characterizations, and future experiments. Check.
Experiments. Demonstrating that the hypotheses are true or false based on the predictions and characterizations.
This last one is where we run into problems. We really don't have them. We cannot falsify the claims in any serious sense. Most egregiously, we cannot test (on a macro scale) what happens if we take away, or significantly diminish, manmade CO2. We're just guessing.
Instead of actually testing the hypotheses -- which, admittedly, is hard, if not impossible -- we substitute a lack of imagination for actual experimentation. We say, "well, our data and correct predictions mostly, up to around 80-90 percent, fit our hypotheses. Therefore the hypotheses must be correct."
But that is not how the scientific method works. If you don't experiment properly, you could be missing something you haven't accounted for. You could be looking at correlation, rather than causation... or you could be looking at causation in the reverse direction.
We just don't know, and as long as scientists cannot admit that fact, they are ignoring a primary component of the scientific method.
It's not a crime against science to be incapable of demonstrating through experimentation. It is a crime against science, however, to pretend that you can reach conclusions without having done that demonstration.
The article contained no evidence that Lomborg was dishonest, so... nope. It doesn't even contain any serious evidence that Lomborg was WRONG, let alone DISHONEST.
Why even read Friel's work? Sounds like Sharon Begley already did that for us.
So if ONE PERSON asserts that something someone else says is true, we should therefore believe it? That makes no sense.
Whether you believe Lomborg, Friel, Begley, or even Albert Einstein, you're always relying on someone's authority, rather than doing your own research.
First, you're conflating two different things: authority, and relying on research. I can rely on someone's RESEARCH without relying on their AUTHORITY. So, say, if East Anglia does some research, I can demand to SEE the research (even if they say they want to illegally resist this request), and rely on that research, without trusting what they have to SAY about their research. That's how science works.
Second, no real research was presented in the article. It's all very high-level and undetailed. This is my point: we have people, without giving any REASON why from any actual EVIDENCE, saying Lomborg was dishonest.
I never checked for myself that F=m*a, nor that E=mc^2.
I did. In the case of F=ma, I repeated experiments that demonstrated it. In the case of E=mc^2, I checked it not by repeating experiments, but by looking at the results and proving it to myself, because, frankly, I was a bit skeptical.
And while many people think I am sometimes silly for questioning such established formulas, the people who -- like me -- love science never begrudge my search.
But enough people did that I'm inclined to believe them.
You have that right. But in science, we demand evidence. None was provided.
Friel discovered that some of Lomborg's facts aren't supported at all by his cited sources, and sometimes even completely contradicted
He CLAIMED he discovered this, yes. And I asked for evidence that he's correct. That is how science works.
Of course it's possible that both Friel and Begley are lying...
Or it's possible they are both just WRONG. Why jump to "lying"? And further, of course, it's possible that Friel is lying, and Begley is merely wrong.
for the time being, I'm inclined to believe them
OK.
Based on what?
You do realize, too, that we actual have HARD PROOF that global warming "scientists" were dishonest in their research, research that the IPCC relied on for its conclusions... right?
Do you realise that the IPCC report that contained those recently exposed mistakes was from a non-scientific "news" workgroup from the IPCC?
No, I am referring to the rampant dishonesty by East Anglia (which I referenced earlier in this comment).
Yes, it's very sloppy, but it's sloppy journalism rather than dishonest science.
I hope you're not trying to blame the journalists, rather -- or more -- than the IPCC, for the Himalayan error. I am not claiming dishonesty, as I just said, but clearly, and unequivocally, this is extremely sloppy science, much more than sloppy journalism. To rely on mere unsubstantiated journalist accounts for scientific claims is about the worst kind of science you can do (other than actual dishonesty).
Even if Lomborg was dishonest -- and you have no evidence of that
How do we not have evidence of that?
How DO you? None has been provided, and in your whole post, you didn't reference any such evidence. And out of the dozens of responses to me, no one else has, either.
Shrug. None of the video had anything to do with what I said. The video is about fraud, which is something I said nothing about (except to say that I said nothing about it). My claim is regarding the fact that they covered up their research: refused to release it, conspired to defy legal requests to release it, threatened to destroy the research rather than release it.
Seriously, whats the point of spending 2-400 bucks on a DVD player and then an additional 2--50 per movie? I know that they look better, but they don't look 40 bucks better than upconverted DVD in my opinion. Exactly. I am a nerd and somewhat early adopter who can afford the higher price of BR and has a BR player (PS3) and large HD TV and even I will still be buying more DVDs than BR-DVDs by year end, simply because of the increased price of BR-DVDs.
I don't even own a single BR video disc. On normal films, I do not see a significant difference. Spider-Man 3 on BR did not look a lot better than upconverted superbit Spider-Man 2 on DVD. Also, the plot was much lamer. FWIW.
Then again, why buy and DVD? Personally, I would prefer to download it. Yeah, except it looks worse, sounds worse, is less portable, and costs almost as much... of course, I still buy most of my music on CD, too, for similar reasons.
Slashdot Mirror
How is this hard for you?
Not at all.
I'm fully aware of all the crap you keep bringing up.
So why did you lie about what I said?
Since you knew that stuff, and came to a different conclusion, I realized this argument could never be productive.
That's an irrational conclusion. Perhaps you engage in arguments only to convince people to agree with your conclusions; I do not.
You try to bait me into "proving" that Moses could not have written Genesis.
Bullshit. You made an irrational claim you cannot back up. I simply challenged you to back it up, and instead of admitting you can't, you lied about me and pretended that I could not be reasoned with.
I could give you the 10 standard points on that from the Age of Reason
Except, of course, that Paine proved nothing. I didn't ask for points or arguments, I asked for PROOF, that you said you had. But you don't.
You would say that it was initially written by him ...
I would say it COULD have been, and that you cannot PROVE otherwise. Which is true. So why not just admit your error?
how can you claim the book is 99% pure
I never did. What I said -- I won't trouble you to look up my comment -- was, "All serious scholars agree that the New Testament, in its current form that we have today, is better than 99 percent pure." As you well know, I hope, Genesis is not in the New Testament.
Here's the thing there, it won't get us anywhere.
If you want to remain ignorant, then yes, you'll never get anywhere. I am giving you facts you don't understand, which I've already pointed out and backed up, and which you dishonestly referred to as saying 'simply "false."'
The only thing keeping us from "getting anywhere" is your dishonesty.
Yes, I'm familiar with Frederic Kenyon
Not well enough to recognize that he was a scientist and historian first. You dishonestly dismiss his work as that of a "biblical scholar," and pretend that he reached his conclusion first. How petty of you, especially when on THIS subject -- the purity of the New Testament -- it is the ANTI-Christians who are the ones who are left out in the cold of the mainstream views. They are the ones, such as the Jesus Seminar members, who explicitly gather to drum up evidence against the Bible (using the most extraordinarily weak methodology imaginable), putting their bias front and center.
Again: you can play these fallacious games of questioning motives, but what matters is what was said, and what backs it up. You cannot argue against the evidence, so you lie about what I said and ignore what the scholars say because of perceived "bias."
It's dishonest.
I realize the Bible is not science
But analysis of it IS science, to a large degree, and much of that science argues against your claims. Again: you attack motives instead of sticking to the facts. It's dishonest.
And Yes, I'm also familiar with a the handful of Christ references you dug up, well like 3 of them anyways, and all of them are of disputed Authenticity particularly the one from Jospehus Flavius
You're lying. The one from Josephus is the ONLY one with disputed authenticity, and MOST scholars today believe that the original Josephus work DID mention Jesus, but just using different language. As I already said, and as you -- true to your form -- ignored.
The but fact is, we both have the facts ...
Except that none of mine has been rebutted, and all of yours have been rebutted. And so you dishonestly pretend that the discussion itself is fruitless, when you find that your arguments are falling down.
there's not
The work of AGW scientists does not follow the scientific method.
Um...yes they do?
In a micro sense, yes. But in the sense of drawing conclusions about global warming, no, they do not.
Do you even know what the scientific method is?
Yes. Let's go through it, since you're not understanding.
This last one is where we run into problems. We really don't have them. We cannot falsify the claims in any serious sense. Most egregiously, we cannot test (on a macro scale) what happens if we take away, or significantly diminish, manmade CO2. We're just guessing.
Instead of actually testing the hypotheses -- which, admittedly, is hard, if not impossible -- we substitute a lack of imagination for actual experimentation. We say, "well, our data and correct predictions mostly, up to around 80-90 percent, fit our hypotheses. Therefore the hypotheses must be correct."
But that is not how the scientific method works. If you don't experiment properly, you could be missing something you haven't accounted for. You could be looking at correlation, rather than causation ... or you could be looking at causation in the reverse direction.
We just don't know, and as long as scientists cannot admit that fact, they are ignoring a primary component of the scientific method.
It's not a crime against science to be incapable of demonstrating through experimentation. It is a crime against science, however, to pretend that you can reach conclusions without having done that demonstration.
You know Lomborg was dishonest? Based on what?
How about TFA?
The article contained no evidence that Lomborg was dishonest, so ... nope. It doesn't even contain any serious evidence that Lomborg was WRONG, let alone DISHONEST.
Why even read Friel's work? Sounds like Sharon Begley already did that for us.
So if ONE PERSON asserts that something someone else says is true, we should therefore believe it? That makes no sense.
Whether you believe Lomborg, Friel, Begley, or even Albert Einstein, you're always relying on someone's authority, rather than doing your own research.
First, you're conflating two different things: authority, and relying on research. I can rely on someone's RESEARCH without relying on their AUTHORITY. So, say, if East Anglia does some research, I can demand to SEE the research (even if they say they want to illegally resist this request), and rely on that research, without trusting what they have to SAY about their research. That's how science works.
Second, no real research was presented in the article. It's all very high-level and undetailed. This is my point: we have people, without giving any REASON why from any actual EVIDENCE, saying Lomborg was dishonest.
I never checked for myself that F=m*a, nor that E=mc^2.
I did. In the case of F=ma, I repeated experiments that demonstrated it. In the case of E=mc^2, I checked it not by repeating experiments, but by looking at the results and proving it to myself, because, frankly, I was a bit skeptical.
And while many people think I am sometimes silly for questioning such established formulas, the people who -- like me -- love science never begrudge my search.
But enough people did that I'm inclined to believe them.
You have that right. But in science, we demand evidence. None was provided.
Friel discovered that some of Lomborg's facts aren't supported at all by his cited sources, and sometimes even completely contradicted
He CLAIMED he discovered this, yes. And I asked for evidence that he's correct. That is how science works.
Of course it's possible that both Friel and Begley are lying ...
Or it's possible they are both just WRONG. Why jump to "lying"? And further, of course, it's possible that Friel is lying, and Begley is merely wrong.
for the time being, I'm inclined to believe them
OK.
Based on what?
You do realize, too, that we actual have HARD PROOF that global warming "scientists" were dishonest in their research, research that the IPCC relied on for its conclusions ... right?
Do you realise that the IPCC report that contained those recently exposed mistakes was from a non-scientific "news" workgroup from the IPCC?
No, I am referring to the rampant dishonesty by East Anglia (which I referenced earlier in this comment).
Yes, it's very sloppy, but it's sloppy journalism rather than dishonest science.
I hope you're not trying to blame the journalists, rather -- or more -- than the IPCC, for the Himalayan error. I am not claiming dishonesty, as I just said, but clearly, and unequivocally, this is extremely sloppy science, much more than sloppy journalism. To rely on mere unsubstantiated journalist accounts for scientific claims is about the worst kind of science you can do (other than actual dishonesty).
Even if Lomborg was dishonest -- and you have no evidence of that
How do we not have evidence of that?
How DO you? None has been provided, and in your whole post, you didn't reference any such evidence. And out of the dozens of responses to me, no one else has, either.
That's fairly telling.
Shrug. None of the video had anything to do with what I said. The video is about fraud, which is something I said nothing about (except to say that I said nothing about it). My claim is regarding the fact that they covered up their research: refused to release it, conspired to defy legal requests to release it, threatened to destroy the research rather than release it.
The video is unrelated to what I said.
I don't even own a single BR video disc. On normal films, I do not see a significant difference. Spider-Man 3 on BR did not look a lot better than upconverted superbit Spider-Man 2 on DVD. Also, the plot was much lamer. FWIW. Then again, why buy and DVD? Personally, I would prefer to download it. Yeah, except it looks worse, sounds worse, is less portable, and costs almost as much