Why make the effort to move to another Microsoft development system after getting burned. I doubt that Java is that much harder for a VB shop to move to than C#. Plus you are not stuck with a one vendor one OS solution.
Why would a Microsoft shop go with Java, when C# 3.0 is coming out? I guess there's a point to be made that Java is so dumbed down that a VB shop could handle it, but typically it's Microsoft tools that keep them coming back.
The fact that he's now working for a company producing a proprietary, direct competitor to Java couldn't possibly have anything to do with is decision, could it? Nahhh. That'd be too cynical.
Shyeah, right!
Or maybe he has some bills to pay? Who would've thought.
Yeah well many of us don't like BSD licensing, not because it's not free (it is), but because it doesn't guarantee that source code will be made available.
Which is complete B.S no matter how many times you people lie. The source will always be available as long as its sitting on someone's hardrive - just like Linux. You just don't like that BSD doesn't force other people to give up their source code.
Those of us who care will probably fork Linux (which *can* be done, dispite Linus' incorrect claims to the contrary). It's going to have to be done sooner or later anyway.
Me and Timmy down the street have decided to fork the kernel too. It should be a weekend job. It'll be completely irrelevant (as will yours), but at least we care about "freeeedddooooooom"
What are your thoughts -- do Firefox and the open source community welcome this kind of analysis?
First we have the obligatory borg-like, "the community" reference. But the question should be re-phrased to "How many of you are so emotionally immature and insecure that you'll throw a tantrum because there might be something not uber-positive said about Firefox, Linux, Gnome, KDE...?"
P.S. who is making these thought decisions for "the community"?
Design documentation is supposed to do tell you the semantics and relationships of these structures; automated tools are a poor substitute for that.
And unfortunately we know that documentation is frequently either poor (even non-existant), or that it doesn't jibe with the actual code.
Software is really about structural relationships.
The perils of taking object orientation too seriously.
Some software is best understood through structure. Some is best understood as a set of imperitive actions. Some is best understood as a logical or functional specification.
OO has been taken way too seriously as a panacea for all our software woes, but procedural languages have structure too. A call graph is structure. A tool like Relo could produce a graphic for plain old C structures and their constituent parts.
If you can automate the result of the process of making notes to myself on the printouts, you've not only solved the hard AI program (the natural language output of the notes), you've solved direct input of information to my brain. Wow!
No McFly, but tools can automate showing the relationships between the differing structures of a program
Software is a linguistic entity, a string of words. It needs to be described in words supplemented with graphics, not graphics supplemented with words.
Software is really about structural relationships. Handwaving about words supplemented with graphics, other than graphics supplemented with words will get you nowhere.
t's a shame and a deep source of our troubles that so many software developers can't put together a decent paragraph, and try to hide their lack of linguistic fluency behind obfuscated diagrams.
What's a shame is the number of developers that are incapable of choosing proper tools to do their jobs. No wonder the industry is still in the dark ages.
What is wrong with just running the project through Doxygen and getting some documentation for the whole thing?
Then just use you editor of choice (Emacs or VI). Hmmmm - there must be Emacs additions that integrate Doxygen.
First you should ask Java programmers why they use Eclipse, Netbeans, and IDEA instead of fumbling around with Vi and Emacs. Or I'll ask why are there so many developers (usually Unixheads) that think Vi and Emacs are the end-all of development environments. Yeah, give me my vi keybindings, but can I get something that isn't stuck in some 1982 console mentality.
Just an aside: given such a codebase, no software tool helps you start understanding it better than a stack of printouts, a pencil, and a big conference table.
I'd rather have tools automate what you would be doing manually with your pencil and printouts. In Java I would start off with Relo or some other tool to reverse engineer the source into UML. It's strange seeing so many programmers wanting to do things the hard, manual way, when the whole point of programming is to have software automate these tasks.
Given a large codebase that you are unfamiliar with, it's hard to start understanding the code with just Vi. It sounds like your ideal environment would allow you to pull a Mozilla project file into something like Eclipse or VS or KDevelop and have everything parsed out into structures, functions, methods, classes... You're not going to find that with the way Mozilla is built (at least the last time I checked). I think KDevelop does have the ability to parse autoconf files and set up a project that way, so you might be able to pull in parts of Mozilla that way. I think Anjuta might have a similiar ability.
I've since moved on from C/C++, but last time I checked the Eclipse CDT was getting a lot of work done on it. What is the problem with it these days?
Can you imagine trying to code a java app without netbeans or eclipse or IDEA? Can you even imagine trying to code a c# app without VS? These IDEs provide workarounds for the cumbersome way these languages go about doing things. I guess I just prefer more elegant approaches like those provided by other languages.
We're past that stupidity. What do you think all those plugin for Vim and Emacs are for? Just goto vim.org and see what the most popular plugins are. But I'm sure you'll be laughed at for programming your superior languages in Notepad.
To me the biggest shame in this industry is the unwillingness by corporations to adopt superior technology. Proven superior technology like erlang or haskell or something. The herd mentality of CIOs and the really the programmers themselves holds the industry back. The wide adoption of silly bondage languages like java and c# when functional languages have been shown over and over again to be more robust, more stable and more productive is stupid.
I know. Everybody is stupid except you. If we all just used Erland and Haskell, it would be ITopia. Of course we can also hand wave about functional languages "having shown over and over again to be more robust, more stable, and more productive". The great thing is that we never actually have to show any evidence. We can just claim it, and make ourselves feel better because it's everybody else that is stupid.
Once you get out of college or get a little bit more experience, you'll realize that there's a lot more to IT then just a programming language. And one of those other things is actually having productive tools like Eclipse, Netbeans, IDEA, and VS.
This is a great move by Intel - I know which vendor I'll be picking for my next 3D card. I HATE that I only have the choice of Nvidia or ATI's "mystery binary blobs" to play games.
And if it was open source, it would still be a mysterious source blob to you. But at least you and the others that "care" would get the warm fuzzies.
I bought WoW a year and a half ago, played it for three hours, and then didn't play it again until last Friday (I was able to haggle 15 free trial days out of a customer service rep). But I really miss the race war servers on EQ1. Are neutral territories (like the Wetlands) free-for-all zones in WoW?
Anyway, is this going to be shiny, new UO engine? I never played the original, but I think what MMOGs need are much more dynamic environments. Everything seems to be so predictable in current offerings.
I find it funny that the Russians pick a date and launch on that date, but the Yanks pick a date and launch 5 weeks later. The USA worries too much about wind and rain, sure a hurricane might upset the launch, but a bit of rain? It is a massive thing the shuttle. Does anyone know how many deaths the Russian (and USSR) space program has had? Is that more or less then the USA one?
You're all messed up, but since you're a communist/socialist european, that's not surprising. Russia killed over a hundred just in one launch pad disaster alone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nedelin_catastrophe
The fanboys don't want to accept the reality of the problems with desktop Linux, and so now it's some grand conspiracy involving Microsoft. The moonbats don't help desktop Linux, they just want to hide the problems and blame others.
Slashdot Mirror
Why make the effort to move to another Microsoft development system after getting burned.
I doubt that Java is that much harder for a VB shop to move to than C#. Plus you are not stuck with a one vendor one OS solution.
Why would a Microsoft shop go with Java, when C# 3.0 is coming out? I guess there's a point to be made that Java is so dumbed down that a VB shop could handle it, but typically it's Microsoft tools that keep them coming back.
As always Reality Master, you're spot on.
Sun's dying, gasping last breaths is the open source of Java. "Yippee hooray, free labor....we care about "the community".
You do realize that memo was ten years ago, right?
.NET out there?
I doubt MS has changed its goals regarding Sun in the last 10 years.
You're not even close to being able to stop riding the short bus. Do you realize that there's something called
I just wish there was something totally cross-platform, with a motto such as: "If x doesn't work on everything, it should work on nothing."
Hey retard, that's not Java. Better stick with C.
The fact that he's now working for a company producing a proprietary, direct competitor to Java couldn't possibly have anything to do with is decision, could it? Nahhh. That'd be too cynical.
Shyeah, right!
Or maybe he has some bills to pay? Who would've thought.
It's time to let DHTML and AJAX mature into the role of rich web content.
AJAX is a hack that can spruce up document-centric web sites, but is a joke for real apps. And that won't change for a long time to come - if ever.
Which is complete B.S no matter how many times you people lie. The source will always be available as long as its sitting on someone's hardrive - just like Linux. You just don't like that BSD doesn't force other people to give up their source code.
Me and Timmy down the street have decided to fork the kernel too. It should be a weekend job. It'll be completely irrelevant (as will yours), but at least we care about "freeeedddooooooom"
What do you expect? He's just a little neo-marxist, dictator wannabe.
What are your thoughts -- do Firefox and the open source community welcome this kind of analysis?
First we have the obligatory borg-like, "the community" reference. But the question should be re-phrased to "How many of you are so emotionally immature and insecure that you'll throw a tantrum because there might be something not uber-positive said about Firefox, Linux, Gnome, KDE...?"
P.S. who is making these thought decisions for "the community"?
I switch Caps Lock with ESC
And unfortunately we know that documentation is frequently either poor (even non-existant), or that it doesn't jibe with the actual code.
OO has been taken way too seriously as a panacea for all our software woes, but procedural languages have structure too. A call graph is structure. A tool like Relo could produce a graphic for plain old C structures and their constituent parts.
Not when you're still stuck with dumb editors.
So they're incompetent because they use superior tools?
No McFly, but tools can automate showing the relationships between the differing structures of a program
Software is really about structural relationships. Handwaving about words supplemented with graphics, other than graphics supplemented with words will get you nowhere.
What's a shame is the number of developers that are incapable of choosing proper tools to do their jobs. No wonder the industry is still in the dark ages.
First you should ask Java programmers why they use Eclipse, Netbeans, and IDEA instead of fumbling around with Vi and Emacs. Or I'll ask why are there so many developers (usually Unixheads) that think Vi and Emacs are the end-all of development environments. Yeah, give me my vi keybindings, but can I get something that isn't stuck in some 1982 console mentality.
I'd rather have tools automate what you would be doing manually with your pencil and printouts. In Java I would start off with Relo or some other tool to reverse engineer the source into UML. It's strange seeing so many programmers wanting to do things the hard, manual way, when the whole point of programming is to have software automate these tasks.
Given a large codebase that you are unfamiliar with, it's hard to start understanding the code with just Vi. It sounds like your ideal environment would allow you to pull a Mozilla project file into something like Eclipse or VS or KDevelop and have everything parsed out into structures, functions, methods, classes... You're not going to find that with the way Mozilla is built (at least the last time I checked). I think KDevelop does have the ability to parse autoconf files and set up a project that way, so you might be able to pull in parts of Mozilla that way. I think Anjuta might have a similiar ability.
I've since moved on from C/C++, but last time I checked the Eclipse CDT was getting a lot of work done on it. What is the problem with it these days?
If the open source community decides on one or the other as being more 'free' and really gets behind it then I'll probably go with that.
Who are you going to let decide for you what tools you're going to use, and who is defining free for you?
A perfect Java distro ...
Hehe, Sun just cringes when they hear "Java distro".
Can you imagine trying to code a java app without netbeans or eclipse or IDEA? Can you even imagine trying to code a c# app without VS? These IDEs provide workarounds for the cumbersome way these languages go about doing things. I guess I just prefer more elegant approaches like those provided by other languages.
We're past that stupidity. What do you think all those plugin for Vim and Emacs are for? Just goto vim.org and see what the most popular plugins are. But I'm sure you'll be laughed at for programming your superior languages in Notepad.
To me the biggest shame in this industry is the unwillingness by corporations to adopt superior technology. Proven superior technology like erlang or haskell or something. The herd mentality of CIOs and the really the programmers themselves holds the industry back. The wide adoption of silly bondage languages like java and c# when functional languages have been shown over and over again to be more robust, more stable and more productive is stupid.
I know. Everybody is stupid except you. If we all just used Erland and Haskell, it would be ITopia. Of course we can also hand wave about functional languages "having shown over and over again to be more robust, more stable, and more productive". The great thing is that we never actually have to show any evidence. We can just claim it, and make ourselves feel better because it's everybody else that is stupid.
Once you get out of college or get a little bit more experience, you'll realize that there's a lot more to IT then just a programming language. And one of those other things is actually having productive tools like Eclipse, Netbeans, IDEA, and VS.
A trollish comment from Gosling about FLOSS doesn't surprise me; after all, he sold out emacs in the 80's.
Actually, you're bitter that it's the truth and he's not drinking the kool-aid.
This is a great move by Intel - I know which vendor I'll be picking for my next 3D card. I HATE that I only have the choice of Nvidia or ATI's "mystery binary blobs" to play games.
And if it was open source, it would still be a mysterious source blob to you. But at least you and the others that "care" would get the warm fuzzies.
I bought WoW a year and a half ago, played it for three hours, and then didn't play it again until last Friday (I was able to haggle 15 free trial days out of a customer service rep). But I really miss the race war servers on EQ1. Are neutral territories (like the Wetlands) free-for-all zones in WoW?
Anyway, is this going to be shiny, new UO engine? I never played the original, but I think what MMOGs need are much more dynamic environments. Everything seems to be so predictable in current offerings.
I find it funny that the Russians pick a date and launch on that date, but the Yanks pick a date and launch 5 weeks later. The USA worries too much about wind and rain, sure a hurricane might upset the launch, but a bit of rain? It is a massive thing the shuttle. Does anyone know how many deaths the Russian (and USSR) space program has had? Is that more or less then the USA one?
You're all messed up, but since you're a communist/socialist european, that's not surprising. Russia killed over a hundred just in one launch pad disaster alone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nedelin_catastrophe
The fanboys don't want to accept the reality of the problems with desktop Linux, and so now it's some grand conspiracy involving Microsoft. The moonbats don't help desktop Linux, they just want to hide the problems and blame others.