Penrose's whole shebang rests on a logical argument which has been formally refuted: http://cogprints.org/553/3/pen.sel8.pdf
What's left remaining, with the argument from logic demolished almost as soon as Penrose publishing it in Shadows of the Mind, is the conjecture Penrose made with Hameroff that there are non-computable aspects to quantum mechanics which allow human brains to escape the limitations of computationalism. This hypothesis has received no serious support from real scientists besides its authors (if you can even call Hameroff a scientist), and many arguments have been made against it. It's basically wishful thinking: Penrose wants the mind to be more powerful than something that can be implemented with computatable physics, and so he says, ultimately physics must be non-computable! What nonsense.
Having said that, I don't believe human-like AI will be practical any time soon, mainly because of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_cognition and recent developments in neurology that show just how deep this integration between mind and body biology is (see Damasio et al.). We'd have to simulate that to make human-like AI, or even AI agents that can understand humans sufficiently to effectively communicate with them.
> A lifetime of experience to a computer cluster with several thousand cores, and several billion Hz of operational frequency, per core, can be passed in a very short time.
Time is not the issue; it is the nature of the experience; please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_cognition and also the large body of neuroscience research related to this issue by Damasio et al.
Though it's not the case for AI in general, for AI agents whose purpose it is to aid humans by direct and extensive interaction with them, it is important that the artificial entity *understands* humans so that it can form the right context necessary for effective communication. This requires AI that has significant human-like aspects. From embodied cognition, one may surmise that it is not possible to create such AI without either extensive simulation of embodiment or physically carrying it out with advanced robotics. Even then, it is not clear whether the level of detail of such simulation or emulation by robotics is practical. For example, if the somatic marker hypothesis turns out to be even approximately correct, the reliance of the human mind on the low level biology of the body is so high that we are nowhere close in terms of processing power to being able to simulate those aspects to any reasonable degree.
Even just looking at the brain itself, it's worth a reminder of the raw processing power of the human brain: it has 150 trillion synapses, and an article that was on Slashdot around a year ago pointed out that each synapse has the complexity of a 100+ gate circuit. This is immense, and even if most synapses could be pruned away with little effect on cognition, the numbers are still huge enough to more than make up for the slow electrochemical signal propagation in the brain.
> And sure, maybe a few good mistakes to ensure nobody wants to even get near to someone that might do something like that.
So you're volunteering? When your innocence is post-humously established, your great sacrifice for the public good will be forever in the public memory! Or...at least for a week or two.
Shapiro's position isn't that much different from Jones in certain ways, yet you'd be hard pressed to argue there's no factual information or one of value. Just the opposite: Shapiro's arguments are informed and well-reasoned.
Just because a message is simple does not mean it's wrong, as your post implies.
Well, this case is purely magnetic regime near field and the low frequency means that far field EM isn't an issue until kilometers out from the system, by when it has been falling off quadratically for a while--and only the 10% leakage they mention as well.
One could do things such as wrap parts of the bottom chassis with mu metal and add additional mu metal to direct the field lines towards the receiver (mu metal in your hard drive make magnetic field leakage essentially a non-issue). Mu metal is not that expensive even in quantity compared to what an electric car costs.
A similar setup is used in rotating anode X-ray tubes (the most common type). The anode is rotated to distribute the damage from the high energy impact of the electron beam and improve heatsinking ability; however, the tube must be completely sealed to maintain the high vacuum necessary for operation, so the rotor, unlike typical electric motors that use coils for field generation powered by brushes, uses permanent magnets instead (brushes would also cause contamination of the vacuum due to mechanical ablation).
You're an idiot. Due to the slow rotation, the slow rate of change of the magnetic field puts the whole system is in a purely magnetic near field regime. While the rotating magnet emitter would, all by itself, produce extremely long wavelength EM radiation starting at a few kilometers distance (any closer, the only electric field that can be induced is in conductors), that does not happen when there is an interacting object in the near field which acts as a sink for most of that energy. Given their efficiency numbers, the leakage is 10%; a kW or even a few of multi-km long wavelength fields are not an issue for biological matter, even less when they don't even exist as EM until km distance over which you've had quadratic falloff! Anywhere within the vicinity of the rotating emitter / car receiver system there is only a relatively slow varying magnetic field and no measurable charge separation can be induced by this in biological matter. Magnetic fields of 16 Tesla were used to levitate a frog around 15 years ago, and the frog had no physiological effects during or after the experiment--and those are magnetic fields orders of magnitude higher than what was ued here!
Unbelievably ignorant comment. The 12.5 kW is running through the free space between the cat's electrons and nuclei with only a tiny tiny fraction of it impacts anything in the cat, none of it having any physiological effect. It's been long established that magnetic fields are basically inert to biological matter. In 1997 they levitated a frog using 16 Tesla field, which is orders of magnitude stronger than anything used here, and the frog had no subsequent physiological problems: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15420771.600-frog-defies-gravity.html The rate of change of the magnetic field is far too slow with this mechanical rotation to create an appreciable electric field--there's no measurable charge separation that can be induced in the cat. There's also no EM waves anywhere in the vicinity due to an extremely long wavelength, putting the whole system including the car, cat, and rotating magnets in a near field situation.
You shouldn't post when you're clearly ignorant of the topic under discussion! *Horizontal* gene transfer is a cross-species phenomenon, you cretinous imbecile! Plasmids are often transferred between bacteria that can be distant on the phylogenetic tree, and retroviruses can also serve as transmission vectors.
Moreover, antibiotic resistance is *not* temporary--it is a persistent evolutionary adaptation. There is selection pressure to acquire it--not lose it! You stupid retarded cunt!
Wow, wait a second here! If you take probiotics such as yogurt while there are still antibiotics in your body, some of the probiotic bacteria are likely to evolve full or partial resistance and that increases the chance of passing that resistance to pathogenic bacteria entering the gut later through horizontal gene transfer. It seems intellectually lazy that you are discounting this serious risk!
Uh, it doesn't matter if the extent is infinite or not, because the finiteness of the speed of light combined with the accelerating expansion of the universe means that there will only be a finite amount of mass-energy within any given Hubble volume.
I posted it to illustrate the importance of precision with language. There's something to be said for not haphazardly making shit up as one blabs along!
Hyperfocus? Have you seen the youth of today? Surely ours is a culture of incessant distraction and infinitesimal attention span. Do you think all but a small fraction of adolescents can keep their mind from wandering while reading but a single sentence of the work of James or Conrad? This trend only continues. Hyperfocus--my ass!
Where are your references, your evidence?
A number of posts above contradicting yours have numerous citations which you need to refute if you're to be taken seriously. And here's one of mine:
"Any freedom lover and justice seeker in the world must do its best for the annihilation of the Zionist regime in order to pave the path for the establishment of justice and freedom in the world." --Ahmadinejad
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel
Except that this is not a lie: "Any freedom lover and justice seeker in the world must do its best for the annihilation of the Zionist regime in order to pave the path for the establishment of justice and freedom in the world." --Ahmadinejad
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel
What you say now, whitewasher of hatemongers?
Slashdot Mirror
Penrose's whole shebang rests on a logical argument which has been formally refuted: http://cogprints.org/553/3/pen.sel8.pdf
What's left remaining, with the argument from logic demolished almost as soon as Penrose publishing it in Shadows of the Mind, is the conjecture Penrose made with Hameroff that there are non-computable aspects to quantum mechanics which allow human brains to escape the limitations of computationalism. This hypothesis has received no serious support from real scientists besides its authors (if you can even call Hameroff a scientist), and many arguments have been made against it. It's basically wishful thinking: Penrose wants the mind to be more powerful than something that can be implemented with computatable physics, and so he says, ultimately physics must be non-computable! What nonsense.
Having said that, I don't believe human-like AI will be practical any time soon, mainly because of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_cognition and recent developments in neurology that show just how deep this integration between mind and body biology is (see Damasio et al.). We'd have to simulate that to make human-like AI, or even AI agents that can understand humans sufficiently to effectively communicate with them.
> A lifetime of experience to a computer cluster with several thousand cores, and several billion Hz of operational frequency, per core, can be passed in a very short time.
Time is not the issue; it is the nature of the experience; please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_cognition and also the large body of neuroscience research related to this issue by Damasio et al.
Though it's not the case for AI in general, for AI agents whose purpose it is to aid humans by direct and extensive interaction with them, it is important that the artificial entity *understands* humans so that it can form the right context necessary for effective communication. This requires AI that has significant human-like aspects. From embodied cognition, one may surmise that it is not possible to create such AI without either extensive simulation of embodiment or physically carrying it out with advanced robotics. Even then, it is not clear whether the level of detail of such simulation or emulation by robotics is practical. For example, if the somatic marker hypothesis turns out to be even approximately correct, the reliance of the human mind on the low level biology of the body is so high that we are nowhere close in terms of processing power to being able to simulate those aspects to any reasonable degree.
Even just looking at the brain itself, it's worth a reminder of the raw processing power of the human brain: it has 150 trillion synapses, and an article that was on Slashdot around a year ago pointed out that each synapse has the complexity of a 100+ gate circuit. This is immense, and even if most synapses could be pruned away with little effect on cognition, the numbers are still huge enough to more than make up for the slow electrochemical signal propagation in the brain.
> And sure, maybe a few good mistakes to ensure nobody wants to even get near to someone that might do something like that.
So you're volunteering? When your innocence is post-humously established, your great sacrifice for the public good will be forever in the public memory! Or...at least for a week or two.
By the way, you see how you tried to draw attention away from the focal point of my post, the article on China?
By the way, I'm not American, so don't know any of the names you mentioned, including the university.
> He didn't say that because scientist are objectively bad at governance. It was because academia is full of "liberals" and he didn't like liberals.
Citation needed.
And if scientists ran government, we would be in China: http://singularityhub.com/2011/05/17/eight-out-of-chinas-top-nine-government-officials-are-scientists/ What was that old quote? "I'd rather be governed by the first 2,000 names in the Boston telephone directory than by the faculty of Harvard."
My new favorite post on Slashdot!
And if scientists ran government, we would be in China: http://singularityhub.com/2011/05/17/eight-out-of-chinas-top-nine-government-officials-are-scientists/
What was that old quote? "I'd rather be governed by the first 2,000 names in the Boston telephone directory than by the faculty of Harvard."
What about this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJdhAm_oUUs
Shapiro's position isn't that much different from Jones in certain ways, yet you'd be hard pressed to argue there's no factual information or one of value. Just the opposite: Shapiro's arguments are informed and well-reasoned.
Just because a message is simple does not mean it's wrong, as your post implies.
This is a problem with the pacemakers, not the magnets, because it's a "feature" built into the pacemakers by design--see here: http://www.openanesthesia.org/index.php?title=Pacemakers/AICDs#Magnets
Well, this case is purely magnetic regime near field and the low frequency means that far field EM isn't an issue until kilometers out from the system, by when it has been falling off quadratically for a while--and only the 10% leakage they mention as well.
One could do things such as wrap parts of the bottom chassis with mu metal and add additional mu metal to direct the field lines towards the receiver (mu metal in your hard drive make magnetic field leakage essentially a non-issue). Mu metal is not that expensive even in quantity compared to what an electric car costs.
Double-blind testing spread over several decades is immensely expensive, and that is a timescale beyond the horizon of interest for modern industry.
A similar setup is used in rotating anode X-ray tubes (the most common type). The anode is rotated to distribute the damage from the high energy impact of the electron beam and improve heatsinking ability; however, the tube must be completely sealed to maintain the high vacuum necessary for operation, so the rotor, unlike typical electric motors that use coils for field generation powered by brushes, uses permanent magnets instead (brushes would also cause contamination of the vacuum due to mechanical ablation).
You're an idiot. Due to the slow rotation, the slow rate of change of the magnetic field puts the whole system is in a purely magnetic near field regime. While the rotating magnet emitter would, all by itself, produce extremely long wavelength EM radiation starting at a few kilometers distance (any closer, the only electric field that can be induced is in conductors), that does not happen when there is an interacting object in the near field which acts as a sink for most of that energy. Given their efficiency numbers, the leakage is 10%; a kW or even a few of multi-km long wavelength fields are not an issue for biological matter, even less when they don't even exist as EM until km distance over which you've had quadratic falloff! Anywhere within the vicinity of the rotating emitter / car receiver system there is only a relatively slow varying magnetic field and no measurable charge separation can be induced by this in biological matter. Magnetic fields of 16 Tesla were used to levitate a frog around 15 years ago, and the frog had no physiological effects during or after the experiment--and those are magnetic fields orders of magnitude higher than what was ued here!
>It's a dumb idea.
It works fine. It's clearly a good fit for the application, and the only thing dumb here is your post.
Unbelievably ignorant comment. The 12.5 kW is running through the free space between the cat's electrons and nuclei with only a tiny tiny fraction of it impacts anything in the cat, none of it having any physiological effect. It's been long established that magnetic fields are basically inert to biological matter. In 1997 they levitated a frog using 16 Tesla field, which is orders of magnitude stronger than anything used here, and the frog had no subsequent physiological problems: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15420771.600-frog-defies-gravity.html The rate of change of the magnetic field is far too slow with this mechanical rotation to create an appreciable electric field--there's no measurable charge separation that can be induced in the cat. There's also no EM waves anywhere in the vicinity due to an extremely long wavelength, putting the whole system including the car, cat, and rotating magnets in a near field situation.
You shouldn't post when you're clearly ignorant of the topic under discussion! *Horizontal* gene transfer is a cross-species phenomenon, you cretinous imbecile! Plasmids are often transferred between bacteria that can be distant on the phylogenetic tree, and retroviruses can also serve as transmission vectors. Moreover, antibiotic resistance is *not* temporary--it is a persistent evolutionary adaptation. There is selection pressure to acquire it--not lose it! You stupid retarded cunt!
Wow, wait a second here! If you take probiotics such as yogurt while there are still antibiotics in your body, some of the probiotic bacteria are likely to evolve full or partial resistance and that increases the chance of passing that resistance to pathogenic bacteria entering the gut later through horizontal gene transfer. It seems intellectually lazy that you are discounting this serious risk!
Uh, it doesn't matter if the extent is infinite or not, because the finiteness of the speed of light combined with the accelerating expansion of the universe means that there will only be a finite amount of mass-energy within any given Hubble volume.
I posted it to illustrate the importance of precision with language. There's something to be said for not haphazardly making shit up as one blabs along!
Hyperfocus? Have you seen the youth of today? Surely ours is a culture of incessant distraction and infinitesimal attention span. Do you think all but a small fraction of adolescents can keep their mind from wandering while reading but a single sentence of the work of James or Conrad? This trend only continues. Hyperfocus--my ass!
> alum creased areas
Alum is the crystalline salt of aluminum sulfate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alum
I'm pretty sure there's none of this in or around electrolytic capacitors, or any other capacitors for that matter.
Where are your references, your evidence?
A number of posts above contradicting yours have numerous citations which you need to refute if you're to be taken seriously. And here's one of mine:
"Any freedom lover and justice seeker in the world must do its best for the annihilation of the Zionist regime in order to pave the path for the establishment of justice and freedom in the world." --Ahmadinejad
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel
Except that this is not a lie: "Any freedom lover and justice seeker in the world must do its best for the annihilation of the Zionist regime in order to pave the path for the establishment of justice and freedom in the world." --Ahmadinejad
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel
What you say now, whitewasher of hatemongers?