Thank you for giving another example of how this paradox works. Mass consumption of increased efficiency/reduced pollution = exactly that : increased pollution/consumption by summation.
Okay, considering I helped create this page, you misunderstood.
Grandparent was asserting ALL hybrids only charge from regenerative braking, and I'm asserting the Prius's HSD has more than one mode, namely direct charging from the engine also.
If you count the teeth on the planet-carrier of the PSD to the ring carrier you'll find that 28% of the engine's torque is always sent to the MG1 which then shunts it back out to MG2 to drive the wheels, or back to charge the battery. The heavy math is here. This means the HSD can consume, and/or store, the excess energy created by the ICE, which is important for maximizing engine efficiency, and for low-end torque which the Atkinson/Miller cycle ICE cannot manage. This ability is what makes it a FULL hybrid.
So yes, the HSD does suffer for highway mileage and high-end HP compared to Honda's system, but Honda's system isn't as flexible, nor as efficient yet.
Also yes, the HSD's "spinning inertia" regenerative-mode (no foot on brakes/accelerator) is somewhat like compression braking, but it isn't as strong. B-mode puts it into max-regen as well as sending the energy into the engine with the cylinders not firing so it performs air-compression braking and throwing that energy away doing that.
Did you know below ~25mph, B-Mode can also charge into the batts besides just free-spin compressing air?
Do you baby your laptop battery to be only between 40% and 80% charge 100% of the time like a Prius does?
Come back and tell us when you do (with a NiMH batt) and your battery still consistently dies. The Prius has been around since 1998 so where are these 'the sky is falling' the dead battery stories that are supposed to have happened by now?
Is 100lbs of battery that massive? It sure weighs hell lot less than most Slashdotters/Americans.
And also...why do they make the hybrids so fugly? Man...can't they design a good looking car these days? What happened to sporty, eye pleasing designs?
It's called drag coefficient. Because the Earth has air, and the vehicle has to travel through it, they designed the bodies that have the lowest drag-coefficients for cutting through air which is generally the minivan/shuttle/prius looks instead of a flying brick like say a Hummer without having having to roll into the car sideways to get in (such as the Lotus Elise). Even big-mac trucks today are bulbous shaped.
Engine efficiency is important, or why bother making it a hybrid? Let's see you come up with a great looking sporty design that has low drag coefficient too.
Otherwise, go with a Accord Hybrid which was designed for people like you whom do not care.
Btw, You must be in one of those neighborhoods/towns that don't care. Much of Orange and LA county have specialized trash pickup, and they GIVE you special trashcans for it. Recycling in these counties is > 60% at least. It's actually very hard NOT to recycle.
Only Hondas get their electrical energy from regenerative braking. You should check out Toyota's HSD (and Ford's independently developed similiar system) which also constantly shunts 25% of the gas engine's spinning energy into either the battery like an alternator, or the electric motor (same unit btw) for torque boost like a supercharger.
Considering there hasn't been a Toyota hybrid that needed battery replacement every 100K miles (Prius has been around since 1998 and there are cabs that gone over 150K miles), and they're warranted up to 150K miles.
So let's look at 200K miles stats. How much will it cost to replace a normal transmission at 200K miles versus only probable battery replacement when the battery has been babied (hard maintained at 40% to 80% charge) the entire time?
Also, no timing belt in a Prius, no clutch, no torque convertor. HSD transmission is more like a differential which almost never breaks down. Less spark-plug replacements because the engine is used less and at lower RPMs. Where's this extra cost?
What do you think full-hybrids are doing now? They're already doing that based on that exact premise. Take a undersized-engine, match it with an electric motor, and run either based on need.
Check out the current hybrids in depth. The performance oriented Accord Hybrid has cylinder disable tech NOW for its V6 by cutting back to a 3, the Prius can idle the cylinders and run only on electric on low-HP demands both on freeway and street speeds besides not spinning up the engine under 35mph (generally) with performance equivalent to a 160HP engine in a 1.5l, and same with new Civic Hybrid.
The current Prius is a much small saloon as much as a Camry/Accord is. Ever heard of the term mid-sized? Look at the internal space numbers and try again.
He says the Civic Hybrid is 36MPG and the Prius is 44MPG without citing his figures, because the site he does cite http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/ very pointly says Civic Hybrid is 44MPG and the Prius is 48MPG REAL-WORLD average.
Not only that, but he fails to do an apples-to-apples comparision of the same status car (new to new, used to used) at the same time as same class (mid-size to mid-size).
The only fair comparision would be a NEW 2004-2005 Honda Accord or Toyota Camry almost exactly equipped to the 2004-2005 Prius, so he's just another in a long line that fails to do that. When you leave out options, safety features, luxury items, you've already biased the comparision.
How about trying a used hybrid vs a used conventional car of the same year and options comparision?
Somebody previously on Slashdot did a used Insight vs a Civic HF, which was fair because they were both the same sized car (internally), but I wonder if the safety options/ratings were the same.
Besides, when has a new car ever saved anybody money? Where's the comparison of how a new: 3/5-series car, H2/H3, Suburu WRX/STi, Scion tC, IS 350, or other fair-comparision vehicle of the same status and class - saved you money versus just not buying it? Why aren't there articles deploring these vehicles in the same breath? Where's the V4 vs V6/V8 doesn't save you money articles?
Obviously, people step up to these luxury/performance cars for reasons other than just cost and savings.
Much like the statistics about statistics usually be wrong, this is just another article from the anti-hybrid side wielding information disingenuously.
I used to think music trends changed every ten years, but maybe I was just fed a load and RIAA is making it not true anyways with all the recycling and cashcow pimping.
Anyways, my personal trend has been away from alternative, and more into electronica, which strangely sounds like early New Wave.
Remember Ada? Almost every government computer system was running that because it was a safe and very strongly-typed language, that was easy to check correctness. I think ground-based systems to jets ran stuff written in Ada.
What are they running today? Stuff written in C/C++ because it's just more practical.
Sure it's the bazaar way to have multiple threads toward a common goal, and choose the best one.
But continual means you have no frelling idea what you're doing because you're just making a half-ass design that doesn't work, and then switching to another one, and another one instead of stepping back and designing it right in the first place.
Is that what you're saying Linux is? A work by amateurs for amateurs who are just dicking around like millions of monekys on a typewriter and hoping to come out with Shakespeare?
There's nothing wrong with having multiple revisions of an ABI and still having one. Look at OpenGL, or even DirectX.
Alternatively, it could be just a driver that wasn't included in the XP cd but it was compiled for the same stable API such as NDIS many years ago.
All you then have to do is install the driver and you're done. There's no recompiling, no attempting to see if the driver is for the correct kernel version number x.x.x.x, no reinstall ing/rebuilding all the drivers just because you went from a 2.4 kernel to a 2.6 kernel.
That's the advantage of a stable ABI.
At my work, we're forced to upgrade to FC4 from the very stable RH8 install just because the RH8 CD won't install on the newer vendor hardware due to these specific driver issues where nothing carries over. And nobody makes updated install CDs... I know I know..
This is NOT about the open-source movement. This about the GPL and Free-Software movement where they're against any proprietary (and possibly closed and/or pay) system integrating against them.
There are quite a few other OSs out there that have been open-source longer WITH stable ABIs.
It was always the case that you can upgrade FreeBSD over SSH within the same major release very painlessly. The special cases of 3.x -> 4.x and 5.x -> 6.x work just trivially also in my experience.
cvsup make installkernel blahblah mergemaster make installworld reboot done
There's more detailed and exact instructions in/usr/src/UPGRADING but I went from 5.x to 6.x without any troubles, and without rebuilding everything.
Just don't forget to build/install the compat5x libs which is in/etc/make.conf if you update from/etc/defaults/make.conf or where ever it exists in/usr/src.
Slashdot Mirror
Thank you for giving another example of how this paradox works. Mass consumption of increased efficiency/reduced pollution = exactly that : increased pollution/consumption by summation.
There's always buy the car you use everyday, rent/borrow the vehicle you need for special activities. You can win both ways there.
Okay, considering I helped create this page, you misunderstood.
Grandparent was asserting ALL hybrids only charge from regenerative braking, and I'm asserting the Prius's HSD has more than one mode, namely direct charging from the engine also.
If you count the teeth on the planet-carrier of the PSD to the ring carrier you'll find that 28% of the engine's torque is always sent to the MG1 which then shunts it back out to MG2 to drive the wheels, or back to charge the battery. The heavy math is here. This means the HSD can consume, and/or store, the excess energy created by the ICE, which is important for maximizing engine efficiency, and for low-end torque which the Atkinson/Miller cycle ICE cannot manage. This ability is what makes it a FULL hybrid.
So yes, the HSD does suffer for highway mileage and high-end HP compared to Honda's system, but Honda's system isn't as flexible, nor as efficient yet.
Also yes, the HSD's "spinning inertia" regenerative-mode (no foot on brakes/accelerator) is somewhat like compression braking, but it isn't as strong. B-mode puts it into max-regen as well as sending the energy into the engine with the cylinders not firing so it performs air-compression braking and throwing that energy away doing that.
Did you know below ~25mph, B-Mode can also charge into the batts besides just free-spin compressing air?
Do you baby your laptop battery to be only between 40% and 80% charge 100% of the time like a Prius does?
Come back and tell us when you do (with a NiMH batt) and your battery still consistently dies. The Prius has been around since 1998 so where are these 'the sky is falling' the dead battery stories that are supposed to have happened by now?
Is 100lbs of battery that massive? It sure weighs hell lot less than most Slashdotters/Americans.
It's called drag coefficient. Because the Earth has air, and the vehicle has to travel through it, they designed the bodies that have the lowest drag-coefficients for cutting through air which is generally the minivan/shuttle/prius looks instead of a flying brick like say a Hummer without having having to roll into the car sideways to get in (such as the Lotus Elise). Even big-mac trucks today are bulbous shaped.
Engine efficiency is important, or why bother making it a hybrid? Let's see you come up with a great looking sporty design that has low drag coefficient too.
Otherwise, go with a Accord Hybrid which was designed for people like you whom do not care.
Btw, You must be in one of those neighborhoods/towns that don't care. Much of Orange and LA county have specialized trash pickup, and they GIVE you special trashcans for it. Recycling in these counties is > 60% at least. It's actually very hard NOT to recycle.
and, that lone Prius would still emit less emissions no matter what.
Only Hondas get their electrical energy from regenerative braking. You should check out Toyota's HSD (and Ford's independently developed similiar system) which also constantly shunts 25% of the gas engine's spinning energy into either the battery like an alternator, or the electric motor (same unit btw) for torque boost like a supercharger.
Your dad needs to update his education because the most popular hybrid in America (Prius) uses NiMH and has done so for many years.
Considering there hasn't been a Toyota hybrid that needed battery replacement every 100K miles (Prius has been around since 1998 and there are cabs that gone over 150K miles), and they're warranted up to 150K miles.
So let's look at 200K miles stats. How much will it cost to replace a normal transmission at 200K miles versus only probable battery replacement when the battery has been babied (hard maintained at 40% to 80% charge) the entire time?
Also, no timing belt in a Prius, no clutch, no torque convertor. HSD transmission is more like a differential which almost never breaks down. Less spark-plug replacements because the engine is used less and at lower RPMs. Where's this extra cost?
What do you think full-hybrids are doing now? They're already doing that based on that exact premise. Take a undersized-engine, match it with an electric motor, and run either based on need.
Check out the current hybrids in depth. The performance oriented Accord Hybrid has cylinder disable tech NOW for its V6 by cutting back to a 3, the Prius can idle the cylinders and run only on electric on low-HP demands both on freeway and street speeds besides not spinning up the engine under 35mph (generally) with performance equivalent to a 160HP engine in a 1.5l, and same with new Civic Hybrid.
AND, the current Prius is a hatchback.
The current Prius is a much small saloon as much as a Camry/Accord is. Ever heard of the term mid-sized? Look at the internal space numbers and try again.
He says the Civic Hybrid is 36MPG and the Prius is 44MPG without citing his figures, because the site he does cite http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/ very pointly says Civic Hybrid is 44MPG and the Prius is 48MPG REAL-WORLD average.
Not only that, but he fails to do an apples-to-apples comparision of the same status car (new to new, used to used) at the same time as same class (mid-size to mid-size).
The only fair comparision would be a NEW 2004-2005 Honda Accord or Toyota Camry almost exactly equipped to the 2004-2005 Prius, so he's just another in a long line that fails to do that. When you leave out options, safety features, luxury items, you've already biased the comparision.
How about trying a used hybrid vs a used conventional car of the same year and options comparision?
Somebody previously on Slashdot did a used Insight vs a Civic HF, which was fair because they were both the same sized car (internally), but I wonder if the safety options/ratings were the same.
Besides, when has a new car ever saved anybody money? Where's the comparison of how a new: 3/5-series car, H2/H3, Suburu WRX/STi, Scion tC, IS 350, or other fair-comparision vehicle of the same status and class - saved you money versus just not buying it? Why aren't there articles deploring these vehicles in the same breath? Where's the V4 vs V6/V8 doesn't save you money articles?
Obviously, people step up to these luxury/performance cars for reasons other than just cost and savings.
Much like the statistics about statistics usually be wrong, this is just another article from the anti-hybrid side wielding information disingenuously.
The submission overlords seem to work like this:
bool reject_submission (news story)
{
if (!isDupe(story)) {
return true;
}
return false;
}
I used to think music trends changed every ten years, but maybe I was just fed a load and RIAA is making it not true anyways with all the recycling and cashcow pimping.
Anyways, my personal trend has been away from alternative, and more into electronica, which strangely sounds like early New Wave.
It used to be called Alternative.
Remember Ada? Almost every government computer system was running that because it was a safe and very strongly-typed language, that was easy to check correctness. I think ground-based systems to jets ran stuff written in Ada.
What are they running today? Stuff written in C/C++ because it's just more practical.
Sure it's the bazaar way to have multiple threads toward a common goal, and choose the best one.
But continual means you have no frelling idea what you're doing because you're just making a half-ass design that doesn't work, and then switching to another one, and another one instead of stepping back and designing it right in the first place.
Is that what you're saying Linux is? A work by amateurs for amateurs who are just dicking around like millions of monekys on a typewriter and hoping to come out with Shakespeare?
There's nothing wrong with having multiple revisions of an ABI and still having one. Look at OpenGL, or even DirectX.
Alternatively, it could be just a driver that wasn't included in the XP cd but it was compiled for the same stable API such as NDIS many years ago.
All you then have to do is install the driver and you're done. There's no recompiling, no attempting to see if the driver is for the correct kernel version number x.x.x.x, no reinstall ing/rebuilding all the drivers just because you went from a 2.4 kernel to a 2.6 kernel.
That's the advantage of a stable ABI.
At my work, we're forced to upgrade to FC4 from the very stable RH8 install just because the RH8 CD won't install on the newer vendor hardware due to these specific driver issues where nothing carries over. And nobody makes updated install CDs... I know I know..
This is NOT about the open-source movement. This about the GPL and Free-Software movement where they're against any proprietary (and possibly closed and/or pay) system integrating against them.
There are quite a few other OSs out there that have been open-source longer WITH stable ABIs.
No dammit. The guy is an alchemist.
:)
The only thing he's violating so far is the Principal of Equivalent Exchange!
100x better compression than LZW... check.
Anybody remember this?
There's a reason why shared libaries have different version numbers such as so.6 so.7, no?
If the numbers stay the same, then there's no API breakage, and no collision.
Has libc even jumped version at all? Considering 6.x is really just a 5.5.x.
It was always the case that you can upgrade FreeBSD over SSH within the same major release very painlessly. The special cases of 3.x -> 4.x and 5.x -> 6.x work just trivially also in my experience.
/usr/src/UPGRADING but I went from 5.x to 6.x without any troubles, and without rebuilding everything.
/etc/make.conf if you update from /etc/defaults/make.conf or where ever it exists in /usr/src.
cvsup
make installkernel blahblah
mergemaster
make installworld
reboot
done
There's more detailed and exact instructions in
Just don't forget to build/install the compat5x libs which is in
How does this compete against NetBSD 2.+? Last time they did a bunch of benchmarks, NetBSD crushed FreeBSD5 and par with Linux 2.6 in UP.