The other interesting question here is whether or not you can get the funding up front to do it.
A lot of people would probably give Whedon money for another Firefly, but I often wonder how many people would have given him the money to make a "Firefly" before there every was one and it was just a high concept. "Think mixing the post-civil-war Wild West... with Star Wars."
That's one of the major flaws with the "contract" models being tossed around for content production. I can probably get one to do something that people know about, but if I'm pitching something new...
Not to mention that's there's a limit to what you can pitch w/o spoiling the movie. I mean, I can tell the studio that the "hook" to the Matrix is the whole virtual reality thing, but you can't tell 10,000 people that w/o killing the surprise.
Some people are being helpful. And others just want to screw with the guy because they hate each other, and others are building or defending their turf. Joe thinks there should be more sex because that's what "people" want to see, and John thinks too much sex is destroying American values, and we need to set a "moral" example.
The end result is bland, watered-down, and a prime example of what happens when "creativity" is managed by a committee.
Yeah, and that un-patched, un-updated "backwards" environment it's running in has a good change of being blasted by every virus and exploit known to man.
Again, to a certain extent the medium does matter, since rerecording older versions off LPs or tape entails a loss in quality though generational copying and also recording the scratches and pops on the LP and background noise and hiss on the tapes. So the "quality" aspect of my argument applies here, since people didn't get the "same" content for their money when they upgraded to CDs, but (arguably) a better version thereof.
You also choose to spend your time doing so, whereas others often will pay not to spend their time doing drudgework when they could be off doing something else they enjoy more, much like I pay someone to mow my grass so I can go out and play volleyball.
As to what you call "fair-use"... well, I can call my cat a dog, but that doesn't mean she's going to go fetch the paper.
While I think that what you did is "fair", it doesn't yet fall under the "comment, discussion, satire" statues of the "fair-use" doctrine, nor does it really fit into the "personal backup" or "right of first sale" aspects of other law. And as another example, I know several people who think torrenting a song to 10,000 "friends" is fair-use.
Which, when you get right down to it, is why we're having these discussions regarding personal rerecording, device shifting, file sharing, TIVO-like time shifting, and so on, and why those definitions need to get nailed down so that fair is fair, for everyone.
"Haven't we paid to upgrade from record to 8-track to cassette to cd to [for some] mp3?"
There are many products that we buy and replace because they wear out (record, 8T), or because newer products offer better quality (CD) or convenience (mp3). If you made most of those conversions, it's because you had a good reason and obtained a clear benefit from doing so. You could have, for example, bought some equipment and recorded all of those 8-tracks to CDR, but the quality would have sucked, and you didn't really want to take the time to do it anyway (convenience). Again, things we often pay for.
This is what makes the transition from DVD to BR/HD interesting, because in one way you may be paying for the "same" movie yet again... but on the other side, it's not the same movie, but a much higher definition, clearer, sharper version.
"This is not a position I'm willing to debate with you."
Yet you keep doing so. Huh. As to definitions: A free market is a market where price is determined by unregulated supply and demand; the opposite is a controlled market, where supply, demand, and price are set by a government.
So no, my definition isn't at doubt, and I'm living in the same universe. But since it seems that I'm not the one attempting to twist definitions to their own ends, perhaps I'm the one who should be questioning someone's honesty.
"You just don't like the actual facts of the situation because they're damaging to your argument."
In light of the above, I couldn't have summed it up better myself. But I will say that, since you seem to be a Linux advocate, that you and your breathern stop whinning about past history and about how MS doesn't play "fair", stop rationalizing away all of your platform's faults as features, and LISTEN to people when they offer constructive criticism.
Because I'm not the only one saying these things...
"That's why I'm a little annoyed at allofmp3.com at the moment, as I've supplied two email addresses to them on only two occassions, and both are huge spam recipients."
Just wait til you see what they do with your credit card number...
Dpends on the form. A "from" name, email, and a text box is one thing.
Too many sites, however, have a twenty field "all-entries-are-required" monstrosity of a questionaire. My take when I see one of these is that either the marketing department thinks it "needs" all of this information up front in case I get somehow get away, or that they're actively trying to discourage people from making bug reports and feature requests, and would be happier if all of those problems just went away.
Who's in an alternate reality? MS may have abused their position in the marketplace, but that doesn't mean that you're not free to compete with them. In fact, people ARE competing with them, both in the free route (linux) and on the higher end (Apple).
Linux folk love to blame MS's dealer agreements, when, in fact, they also have themselves to blame. Linux is nothing more than a "me too" copy of an OS whose primary advantage is that it's free, and whose secondary advantage, the fact it's OSS, is a double-edged sword.
And as a "me too" OS with "me too" software, it fails to offer a truly compelling reason for the vast majority of of people to switch. Because sometimes free is worth exactly what you paid for it.
Typical Linux double-talk about how all of the problems are really benefits, and as such can be ignored. I like the last part though, "The goal is to restore a free market."
News flash. We're IN a free market. And by and large, in many ways, the market has choosen. You see, the vast majority of people tend to think that having a single major platform upon which there's a huge supply and choice of hardware and software is a good thing.
Walk into a CompUSA or a BestBuy or Circuit City or Target. People know that they can buy any one of those games or programs off the shelf and their computer will run it. (usually)
Hell, Apple had to spend millions of dollars writing (and aquiring) some best-of-class applications just to get people to even LOOK at their computers. Not to mention the fact that you can at least get the major commercial applications like Word and Photoshop for 'em
Where are the world-class desktop applications for Linux? OpenOffice and GIMP? Right. Firefox? Okay, but even those applications are available on Windows, which means that Windows users who got Windows "free" on their new computers have even MORE choice. Even applications written for the "competition" support them.
So what are those advantages again? I must have missed something...
"... and they make up the vast majority of that [sic] market."
No doubt.
"You don't run 24/7 servers on intel hardware."
Really. I think you need to talk to Google and quite a few other people who're doing the 24/7 thing not only on Intel hardware, but on commodity Intel hardware. Perhaps the word cluster is new to you?
"We are talking about enterprises who run novell or unix..."
Oh. Sorry, Wow. You're right, that major market segment [snicker] who's also in the process of transistioning off those particular systems may in fact be going to Linux. That's, what? A tenth of one percent of all of the desktop and server boxes out there?
Nothing like redefining your market segment so narrowly that you can say you're the big cheese in it...
"Studies show that the vast majority of migrations move to linux but a certain percentage moves to windows."
Care to point to those sources and expand on the "vast majority" wishful thinking you're presenting here? Becaue the "vast majority" of shops whose businesses I'm aquainted with and who run MS on the desktop also tend to run Windows fileservers, Exchange servers, SQL Server, IIS, and so on.
They "may" run a Linux DNS or web server in an appliance mode, but tend to resist doing that as well, simply because they don't want to get to the point where they need two different--and expensive--support staffs.
As neat as I can tell, Linux is making headway is two main areas: completely web-based organizations like Google or hosting services, and small mom-and-pop type places who can't afford MS's license fees and have no other choice.
That wasn't really the critical error. By not lauching the planned second strike, Yamamoto failed to take out the tank farms with the island's oil and gasoline reserves. Had the Japanese achieved that objective, whatever battleships or carriers they might have missed in the initial attack would still have been out of action for months, just as effectively as if they'd been damaged or sunk.
Unfortuantely (for him), Yamamoto couldn't believe he'd completely gained the element of surprise, so he held back the second strike against the carrier "ambush" attack he was afraid he'd see at any minute.
In fact, a later analysis admits that, had Yamamoto destroyed Hawaii's gas and oil reserves, we'd have been locked out of the Pacific for a year or more. For that result, and in hindsight, even losing a carrier or two in a counter-attack would have been well worth the price.
Wow. A, what? Two year old installation disk doesn't recognize the latest and greatest drive? And because of that Linux installation problems are a "non-issue"?
Actually, your installation comments are correct in one regard, most people use what's already installed on the computer as it comes from the store. And that, very shortly, is going to be Vista.
And that, my friend, is where the balance lies. Any success Linux will have at the desktop level will have to come at the expense of Windows Vista. Or in other words, MS is going to have to blow it big time to give it an opening. And if Vista suceeds in fixing a good portion of the security issues and other problems currently associated with XP... then Linux simply isn't going to get that opening.
Because the majority of people aren't going to want to give up all of their old software and games and repurchase them just so they can move to a "better" platform. Especially when that "better" platform doesn't even support the majority of those products. Again, you're right, they just want to use the same programs in the same manner.
And if Linux expects to exploit that opening, should it come, then it had better be ready to support all of that hardware: computers and printers and cameras and everything else. And they're better have a common face: 50-plus all slightly different and incompatible distributions and desktops and installers and drivers are not going to cut it.
Take a page from Apple's book. Every Mac desktop and notebook shipped comes with OS X. No "lite" or "media" or "pro" versions. No choice between 50 different-named different-looking different-acting versions. Just OS X.
Personally, I don't think you guys can get past your differences and make it happen.
(BTW, just for the record, I know about OS X Server, but we're talking about the desktop here. Try to stay focused.)
"What's different is that I don't pay for that, not as a direct percentage of my buys."
Oh yeah, the costs of all of those things are totally covered gratis by the store's owners, and are NEVER factored into the price of what you're buying there.
Of course, that "monopoly" also exists in the "community", employs people in the community, makes it possible for the "community" to have retirement plans, pays taxes in the community, and so on.
And rather that complaining about non-profits, how about the warez leaches? People who steal are subsidized by you too, and they contribute nothing...
"How dare you treat customers like presumed crooks?"
Practically every bricks and mortar store presumes customers are crooks. That's why they have doors, locks, chains, guards, security tags, scanners, scales, cameras, price tags, anti-theft packaging, managers, inventory controls, and more.
Or to rephrase, they presume that "some" customers are crooks. Unfortunately, there's no way to tell one from the other until somebody tries to go out the front door with a TV under their coat...
Reread the quote. The guy said he may not be the greatest technical mind, not that he had no experience or knowledge whatsoever.
And regarding iterative design, part of that process lies in prototyping and getting feedback as soon as possible from the users. The "waterfall" has its share of issues too. Plenty of projects have been designed and designed and designed and then built, only to find out afterwards that none of the users read or understood the hundreds of pages of "specs" and what was built doesn't serve their needs at all.
And frankly, the ONLY time you can get a set of design documents that completely describes the project, with no changes or iterations or refactoring whatsoever... is when you do them after the fact.
Slashdot Mirror
The other interesting question here is whether or not you can get the funding up front to do it.
A lot of people would probably give Whedon money for another Firefly, but I often wonder how many people would have given him the money to make a "Firefly" before there every was one and it was just a high concept. "Think mixing the post-civil-war Wild West... with Star Wars."
That's one of the major flaws with the "contract" models being tossed around for content production. I can probably get one to do something that people know about, but if I'm pitching something new...
Not to mention that's there's a limit to what you can pitch w/o spoiling the movie. I mean, I can tell the studio that the "hook" to the Matrix is the whole virtual reality thing, but you can't tell 10,000 people that w/o killing the surprise.
Some people are being helpful. And others just want to screw with the guy because they hate each other, and others are building or defending their turf. Joe thinks there should be more sex because that's what "people" want to see, and John thinks too much sex is destroying American values, and we need to set a "moral" example.
The end result is bland, watered-down, and a prime example of what happens when "creativity" is managed by a committee.
Sort of like the Zune....
Want to complain about the unwashed masses? Try visiting a college computer lab.
Yeah, and that un-patched, un-updated "backwards" environment it's running in has a good change of being blasted by every virus and exploit known to man.
Sort of answers that whole "When will Linux take over the desktop" question, doesn't it?
Again, to a certain extent the medium does matter, since rerecording older versions off LPs or tape entails a loss in quality though generational copying and also recording the scratches and pops on the LP and background noise and hiss on the tapes. So the "quality" aspect of my argument applies here, since people didn't get the "same" content for their money when they upgraded to CDs, but (arguably) a better version thereof.
You also choose to spend your time doing so, whereas others often will pay not to spend their time doing drudgework when they could be off doing something else they enjoy more, much like I pay someone to mow my grass so I can go out and play volleyball.
As to what you call "fair-use"... well, I can call my cat a dog, but that doesn't mean she's going to go fetch the paper.
While I think that what you did is "fair", it doesn't yet fall under the "comment, discussion, satire" statues of the "fair-use" doctrine, nor does it really fit into the "personal backup" or "right of first sale" aspects of other law. And as another example, I know several people who think torrenting a song to 10,000 "friends" is fair-use.
Which, when you get right down to it, is why we're having these discussions regarding personal rerecording, device shifting, file sharing, TIVO-like time shifting, and so on, and why those definitions need to get nailed down so that fair is fair, for everyone.
"Haven't we paid to upgrade from record to 8-track to cassette to cd to [for some] mp3?"
There are many products that we buy and replace because they wear out (record, 8T), or because newer products offer better quality (CD) or convenience (mp3). If you made most of those conversions, it's because you had a good reason and obtained a clear benefit from doing so. You could have, for example, bought some equipment and recorded all of those 8-tracks to CDR, but the quality would have sucked, and you didn't really want to take the time to do it anyway (convenience). Again, things we often pay for.
This is what makes the transition from DVD to BR/HD interesting, because in one way you may be paying for the "same" movie yet again... but on the other side, it's not the same movie, but a much higher definition, clearer, sharper version.
Worth paying for? Your choice.
"This is not a position I'm willing to debate with you."
Yet you keep doing so. Huh. As to definitions: A free market is a market where price is determined by unregulated supply and demand; the opposite is a controlled market, where supply, demand, and price are set by a government.
So no, my definition isn't at doubt, and I'm living in the same universe. But since it seems that I'm not the one attempting to twist definitions to their own ends, perhaps I'm the one who should be questioning someone's honesty.
"You just don't like the actual facts of the situation because they're damaging to your argument."
In light of the above, I couldn't have summed it up better myself. But I will say that, since you seem to be a Linux advocate, that you and your breathern stop whinning about past history and about how MS doesn't play "fair", stop rationalizing away all of your platform's faults as features, and LISTEN to people when they offer constructive criticism.
Because I'm not the only one saying these things...
"That's why I'm a little annoyed at allofmp3.com at the moment, as I've supplied two email addresses to them on only two occassions, and both are huge spam recipients."
Just wait til you see what they do with your credit card number...
Dpends on the form. A "from" name, email, and a text box is one thing.
Too many sites, however, have a twenty field "all-entries-are-required" monstrosity of a questionaire. My take when I see one of these is that either the marketing department thinks it "needs" all of this information up front in case I get somehow get away, or that they're actively trying to discourage people from making bug reports and feature requests, and would be happier if all of those problems just went away.
Who's in an alternate reality? MS may have abused their position in the marketplace, but that doesn't mean that you're not free to compete with them. In fact, people ARE competing with them, both in the free route (linux) and on the higher end (Apple).
Linux folk love to blame MS's dealer agreements, when, in fact, they also have themselves to blame. Linux is nothing more than a "me too" copy of an OS whose primary advantage is that it's free, and whose secondary advantage, the fact it's OSS, is a double-edged sword.
And as a "me too" OS with "me too" software, it fails to offer a truly compelling reason for the vast majority of of people to switch. Because sometimes free is worth exactly what you paid for it.
Actually, it's nice to know that MS is paying attention to the details.
Now, whether or not they've paid attention to the right details is another question entirely... and one which will be answered shortly.
Typical Linux double-talk about how all of the problems are really benefits, and as such can be ignored. I like the last part though, "The goal is to restore a free market."
News flash. We're IN a free market. And by and large, in many ways, the market has choosen. You see, the vast majority of people tend to think that having a single major platform upon which there's a huge supply and choice of hardware and software is a good thing.
Walk into a CompUSA or a BestBuy or Circuit City or Target. People know that they can buy any one of those games or programs off the shelf and their computer will run it. (usually)
Hell, Apple had to spend millions of dollars writing (and aquiring) some best-of-class applications just to get people to even LOOK at their computers. Not to mention the fact that you can at least get the major commercial applications like Word and Photoshop for 'em
Where are the world-class desktop applications for Linux? OpenOffice and GIMP? Right. Firefox? Okay, but even those applications are available on Windows, which means that Windows users who got Windows "free" on their new computers have even MORE choice. Even applications written for the "competition" support them.
So what are those advantages again? I must have missed something...
"... and they make up the vast majority of that [sic] market."
No doubt.
"You don't run 24/7 servers on intel hardware."
Really. I think you need to talk to Google and quite a few other people who're doing the 24/7 thing not only on Intel hardware, but on commodity Intel hardware. Perhaps the word cluster is new to you?
"We are talking about enterprises who run novell or unix..."
Oh. Sorry, Wow. You're right, that major market segment [snicker] who's also in the process of transistioning off those particular systems may in fact be going to Linux. That's, what? A tenth of one percent of all of the desktop and server boxes out there?
Nothing like redefining your market segment so narrowly that you can say you're the big cheese in it...
Do all of that AND make it substantially better and I agree: it might sell.
Then again, perhaps you're familiar with the traditional first line of any rabbit stew recipe?
Step 1. Catch a rabbit.
"Studies show that the vast majority of migrations move to linux but a certain percentage moves to windows."
Care to point to those sources and expand on the "vast majority" wishful thinking you're presenting here? Becaue the "vast majority" of shops whose businesses I'm aquainted with and who run MS on the desktop also tend to run Windows fileservers, Exchange servers, SQL Server, IIS, and so on.
They "may" run a Linux DNS or web server in an appliance mode, but tend to resist doing that as well, simply because they don't want to get to the point where they need two different--and expensive--support staffs.
As neat as I can tell, Linux is making headway is two main areas: completely web-based organizations like Google or hosting services, and small mom-and-pop type places who can't afford MS's license fees and have no other choice.
That wasn't really the critical error. By not lauching the planned second strike, Yamamoto failed to take out the tank farms with the island's oil and gasoline reserves. Had the Japanese achieved that objective, whatever battleships or carriers they might have missed in the initial attack would still have been out of action for months, just as effectively as if they'd been damaged or sunk.
Unfortuantely (for him), Yamamoto couldn't believe he'd completely gained the element of surprise, so he held back the second strike against the carrier "ambush" attack he was afraid he'd see at any minute.
In fact, a later analysis admits that, had Yamamoto destroyed Hawaii's gas and oil reserves, we'd have been locked out of the Pacific for a year or more. For that result, and in hindsight, even losing a carrier or two in a counter-attack would have been well worth the price.
You opened the door on subsidizing freeloaders and people who get discounts. I just walked through it...
"They'll also get a kick out of having a simple, clean interface that isn't cluttered with applets, ads, and inconsistent applications."
Inconsistent applications? Oh PLEASE. Linux is the HOME of the my-way-is-better let's-skin-everything interface-who-needs-an-interface application.
Cluttered? How about the typical desktop I see with a dozen terminal windows all open all at the same time?
Consistent? Heck, you guys can't even decide on a single desktop.
Wow. A, what? Two year old installation disk doesn't recognize the latest and greatest drive? And because of that Linux installation problems are a "non-issue"?
Actually, your installation comments are correct in one regard, most people use what's already installed on the computer as it comes from the store. And that, very shortly, is going to be Vista.
And that, my friend, is where the balance lies. Any success Linux will have at the desktop level will have to come at the expense of Windows Vista. Or in other words, MS is going to have to blow it big time to give it an opening. And if Vista suceeds in fixing a good portion of the security issues and other problems currently associated with XP... then Linux simply isn't going to get that opening.
Because the majority of people aren't going to want to give up all of their old software and games and repurchase them just so they can move to a "better" platform. Especially when that "better" platform doesn't even support the majority of those products. Again, you're right, they just want to use the same programs in the same manner.
And if Linux expects to exploit that opening, should it come, then it had better be ready to support all of that hardware: computers and printers and cameras and everything else. And they're better have a common face: 50-plus all slightly different and incompatible distributions and desktops and installers and drivers are not going to cut it.
Take a page from Apple's book. Every Mac desktop and notebook shipped comes with OS X. No "lite" or "media" or "pro" versions. No choice between 50 different-named different-looking different-acting versions. Just OS X.
Personally, I don't think you guys can get past your differences and make it happen.
(BTW, just for the record, I know about OS X Server, but we're talking about the desktop here. Try to stay focused.)
"What's different is that I don't pay for that, not as a direct percentage of my buys."
Oh yeah, the costs of all of those things are totally covered gratis by the store's owners, and are NEVER factored into the price of what you're buying there.
"I don't pay for that..." Dude, get a clue.
Of course, that "monopoly" also exists in the "community", employs people in the community, makes it possible for the "community" to have retirement plans, pays taxes in the community, and so on.
And rather that complaining about non-profits, how about the warez leaches? People who steal are subsidized by you too, and they contribute nothing...
"How dare you treat customers like presumed crooks?"
Practically every bricks and mortar store presumes customers are crooks. That's why they have doors, locks, chains, guards, security tags, scanners, scales, cameras, price tags, anti-theft packaging, managers, inventory controls, and more.
Or to rephrase, they presume that "some" customers are crooks. Unfortunately, there's no way to tell one from the other until somebody tries to go out the front door with a TV under their coat...
Reread the quote. The guy said he may not be the greatest technical mind, not that he had no experience or knowledge whatsoever.
And regarding iterative design, part of that process lies in prototyping and getting feedback as soon as possible from the users. The "waterfall" has its share of issues too. Plenty of projects have been designed and designed and designed and then built, only to find out afterwards that none of the users read or understood the hundreds of pages of "specs" and what was built doesn't serve their needs at all.
And frankly, the ONLY time you can get a set of design documents that completely describes the project, with no changes or iterations or refactoring whatsoever... is when you do them after the fact.