Apparently it was in an interview with General Ouze Merham in 1956. Given his past actions and comments, him saying this would not suprise me in the least.
I can tell from your other posts on this topic that you're the poor poor victim of propoganda
I can tell that you obviously havent bothered to research your topic. Or maybe its just propaganda?
Land owndership was small because they were concentrated in cities, but population was more significant (but not a majority).
Nowhere near a majority, quite the minority
If you are seriously trying to compare the Holocaust to the current treatment of Palestinians, then you are seriously deluded
Carefully re-read what I said, and dont put words in my mouth. For too long the Jews have been living as second class citizens all over the world, living under goverments that harbour no love for them. The exact same situation which the palestinians are in now.
Once again, you're seriously devoid of historical knowledge
Show me how they did not build Israel on the ruin of Palestine...
Now, regarding Ben Gurion, who you quoted somewhere else, he did mandate during the pre-stages of the creation of Israel that no native inhabitants were to be displaced! This was a central theme of all but a few of the Zionists.
I think you are somewhat confused. Although Ben Gurion did say that Arabs have the same rights as Jews in Palestine, He would never recognise any sort of political rights for them (this is from a Zionists living in a country who's arab population mkes up 85%!). He basically said that
while Arabs did have some rights,They are relegated to their homes and in no-way will there rights stop the creation of Israel...
You really should do some research on this man first.
Blaming Israel for all the problems and not looking at the other side is sheer stupidity (or sheer amnesia). The creation of Israel did create alot of problems, though the cause of these was shared between Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and the Palestinians
Agreed, Im not saying that everyone else is saints.
If the Palestinians had accepted the UN partition plan, they'd have significantly more land now than just the West Bank and Gaza
If you look at the population of the Jews when that map was drawn up, and the % of land they were given, you would see that it is GROSSLY unfair. If however the Zionists had accepted the Peel plan which the Zionistst rejected in 1937 things might be different. If you look at the
maps that the Peel plan consisted of, you would see that the % of land given to the Zionists was a FAIR representation to the % of the population at that time. Not only that but they were also offered the most fertile lands in Palestine. If they
had accepted this plan than they may have been able to prevent the holocaust even. Why didnt they accept it? simple, they wanted more. Even when they accepted the partition that the UN GA instigated, they knew that they had won but a minor victory, as all of palestine was still not theirs.
But saying Israel was built on the ruins of another nation is utter foolishness.
Not at all. What else do you call it when you have a huge influx of Jews into palestine, then while the jews are still a minority they are telling the rest of the world how they will run Palestine/Israel, then what begins is a compulsory transfer of
palestinians from there homes to create a majority of jews in the land (which was the zionists aim from the beginning,read up). This is turn creates hundreds of thousands of refugee's which are not entitled to return to their homeland.
To call it anything else is utter foolishness
If military force could stop terrorism, shouldn't Israel, Sri Lanka, and the United States (to name a few) have gotten rid of it by now?
It sort of can...but not sort of cant...
Many an attempt of terrorism is stopped by the Israeli military....because they have a military. Whereas Israeli State Terror can go unchecked in the occupied terrortories...because the Palestinians have no military.
Getting out of "Palestine" won't do any good. When Arabs massacred Jews in Hebron in 1920 and 1929, and elsewhere in the 1930s, that certainly didn't have anything to do with the State of Israel, which didn't exist yet.
It most certianly did have something to do with the state of Israel, the state that the Jews were promising to create and were already making headway in doing so. Weizman who was president of the World Zionists organization went to the Paris Peace conference and stated that he was hoping for 70,000-80,000 Jews to arrive into Palestine each year, he then went on to say that they would create a state and that Palestine would become "as Jewish as England is English". This sentiment and attitude was echoed by all of the major players in the Zionists movement, since the turn of the century and right up until this present time. Now dont tell me that you wouldnt wage war on a people that came into your country en masse, state to the world you were going to create your own goverment to take over ALL the land and as Ben Gurions put it "Reduce the population to a community of woodcutters and waiters". I know I sure as hell would have something to say about it.
When all the neighboring Arab nations invaded Israel in 1948, it was billed as a war of "extermination".
'all the Arab nations' doesnt really mean much in terms of military might. The Israeli army was just as strong if not stronger at the time...obviously
The zionists made it clear from the beginning that they wanted ALL of Israel, and were willing to ethnicly cleanse the population (by Compulsory transfer or other means..) to achieve this goal. Not only were they willing, but they knew that this was the only method to re-claim the "promised land". The JEWS made it into a matter of "its either you or us".
They focused on killing Israeli civilians instead of the military to the point that it seriously hurt their war effort.
I hope your not suggesting that they targeted civilians to the point that the military was affected little. 20% of the dead were civilians, 80% military. Also, interesting statistic to note is that half of the Israeli casualties were caused in Israeli offensives OUTSIDE the area specified by the UN.
When the PLO was founded in 1964 and immediately set about trying to kill Israeli civilians, that certainly wasn't a reaction to events which happened three years later.
This could be well true, but dont confuse the PLO of yesteryear to that of today.
Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the PFLP, and The Al-Aqsa Martyrs gang all have the same avowed goal: Getting rid of Israel completely. They're not shy about saying that, either.
and Vice Versa. The Zionists have the same goals of getting rid of Palestine (which they have done) and ridding themselves of the Palestinian people, the burden that comes with usurping their land. The following comes to us from an Israeli PM "With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement].... I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it."
They will not accept the existence of Israel at all.
As the jews wont accept a REAL state of Palestine (yes I DO challenge you to show me a time when Israel has done so). So basically...that makes them both as bad as eachother..but lets not forget, it was the Jews who Usurped Palestine.
They will not accept the existence of any Jews in the Middle East (which in time-honored blood-and-soil fashion they regard as "Arab land") who are not under Arab rule (or at all, depending on which spokesman you listen to). The "moderates" in those groups claim that they will accept the presence of those Jews whose ancestors lived on that land continuously since biblical times, and kill or deport the others;
are you making these points to somehow distinguish the high moral posistion of Israel Vs lowly dog arabs? Israel's posistion on the Arabs is just as extreme, and whats even scarier, is that they have implemented there policies and are continuing to do so.
the main stream would rather kill any Jews they can get their hands on and disposess the rest (never mind the 850,000 or so Jewish refugees in Israel who were born in Arab nations,
DISPOSSES!?!?!?!?!?! You mean take back the land that was taken from them....
People always say "oh, they will drive the Jews into the sea". Give me a break. Im sure there is much re-sentment against the Jews, most of which is well deserved. There is never going to be any sort of 'mass-murders' of Jews at the Palestinians hands....Israel has the 4th most poweful army in the world, the palestinian people are nothing more than a mosquito to them, and they treat them as such.
and lets not forget the 700,000 palestinians who have been forced from their own houses and land and have been told by the Israeli Goverment they are not allowed to return..ever.
but had all their property confiscated and had to flee for their lives;
As the Palestinians had their property confiscated/looted and they had to flee their land...that which is now Israel. another quote from Ben Gurion "[They] said it was imperative to expel the Arabs [in the area] and to burn the villages. For me, the matter was very difficult. [But] they said that they were not sure [the kibbutz could continue to exist] if the villages remained intact and [if] the Arab inhabitants were not expelled, for they [i.e. the Palestinian Arabs villagers] would [later] attack them [i.e. Mishmar Ha'emek].
When Israel unilaterally withdrew from South Lebanon a couple of years back (though they had a perfect right to be there under international law, on the grounds that the Lebanese had been -- once again! -- coming over the border and massacring Israeli civilians)
Actually, they were told to withdraw. Yes they did withdraw, not before committing a couple of massacres on refugee camps though.
Bottom line: Giving in to some of the terrorists' demands will not encourage them to drop the rest of their demands. To the contrary, they'll take it as encouragement to redouble their efforts. When you give in to extortion, the extortionist always demands more. Always.
Bottomline is...
When a people invade your country, take your land, bulldoze/burn your villages, expel a significant % of the population tellin them they can never return, Setup checkpoints that control your comings and goings everyday, Issue you with ID cards that must be carried with you at alltimes (you are jailed if you dont have it on you), taxed heavily by an apartheid and racists goverment (yes Israel is making a lot of money from The westbank and Gaza), having your dignity taken from you...and YOU DO NOTHING, they will continue to walk all over you forever.Always.
Ending the settlements is not Hamas' endgame. Their goal w/r/t Israel, like most of the rest of the Arab world, is ethnic cleansing on a grand scale, and they'll settle for nothing less.
lol...Israel has an Overwhelmingly powerful army. No arab nation is going to touch them. Stop playing up this 'ethnic cleansing' argument. Its not going to happen, period. Whereas the Israeli's have shown that they are ready and willing to partake in the ethnic cleansing and compulsory transfer of the Palestinians.
They'll never accomplish that, but bribing them to kill more civilians won't help them come to grips with the reality that a reasonable, just peace is the only option anybody's got (where "reasonable", "just", and "peace" mean "NOBODY kills ANYBODY" -- none of this European notion that "peace" means "the Jews stop defending themselves while the Arabs go on killing".)
The Zionists have never been interested in a reasonable and just peace, never. If you want I could sit here all night pointing out facts that show this is not the case, but I would rather you research some Zionists history yourself.
"We do not seek an agreement with the [Palestinian] Arabs in order to secure the peace. Of course we regard peace as an essential thing. It is impossible to build up the country in a state of permanent warfare. But peace for us is a means, and not an end. The end is the fulfillment of Zionism in its maximum scope. Only for this reason do we need peace, and do we need an agreement." Another quote from Ben Gurion
...Im sure you understand what "Maximum Scope" means....it means all of Pleastine...in fact, it means MORE than Palestine. Nothing has changed. They dont want peace, they want Palestine. They cannot obtain "greater israel" and judea through peace, the palestinians wont simply hand it over. That leaves no other option for them.
I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian Child will be born in this area. The Palestinian Woman and Child is more dangerous than the Man, Because the Palestinian Child existence refers that Generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli Civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With One hit I've killed 750 Palestinians ( in Rafah, 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic Girls as The Palestinian Woman is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and Nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do
The above is a quote...not from some renegade jew who has a chip on his shoulder, but it was said by the current democraticly elected prime minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon...what a guy....
>However, there are several dozen other countries >doing things far worse than Israel (Sudan for >instance, 2 million dead in ongoing civil war, >slavery of black Christians, etc), but nobody >seems to give a shit about these atrocities
Thats true. But that doesnt make the atrocities of Israel any less, nor does it mean we should ignore the issue.
>Secondly, you are either too young or have only >a short-term memory. Before there was any >occupied territories, there was terror, attacks, >and outright war launched at the state of >Israel. And even before Israel was a country, >there was terror and attacks on the Jews living >in the land now called Israel/Palestine. .
Just as there were Zionists bombing Palestinian buildings and infastructure before the creation of Israel. The Jews who were native to palestine made up a tiny (I think 2-4% land ownership at the turn of the century) part of the populaiton, and in those days there werent any major issues AFAIK. It was after the huge influx and importation of jews from mainly europe via the Zionists movement that things started to beocme unpleasant (and these jews were brought in with the mind to create some legitamacy to an otherwise absurd claim to the land...based purely on ancient torah scrolls)
>I think Israeli's hearts have hardened, after >having fallen prey to Russian pogroms, the >Holocaust, and centuries of other European anti->semitism
There hearts have hardened as their memory also has. Its suprising how quickly people forget and the oppressed become the oppresser.
>Golda Meir basically summed it up by saying (rougly) "We'd rather have people not be happy >with us than be pitied and dead."
Im sure they would rather people not be happy with them. That still doesnt give them the right to build a nation on the ruins of another.
Slashdot Mirror
Specifically in 1998, a 120ft wave off the east coast of tasmania http://www.swellnet.com.au/news/124-a-short-history-of-tasman-lows
Only in America
I would have to say Asimov closely followed by Arthur C Clarke.
Although one of the best reads of sci-fi books I've read was an effort between Stephen Baxter and Arthur C Clarke, "The light of other days".
Apparently it was in an interview with General Ouze Merham in 1956. Given his past actions and comments, him saying this would not suprise me in the least.
I can tell that you obviously havent bothered to research your topic. Or maybe its just propaganda?
Land owndership was small because they were concentrated in cities, but population was more significant (but not a majority). Nowhere near a majority, quite the minority
If you are seriously trying to compare the Holocaust to the current treatment of Palestinians, then you are seriously deluded
Carefully re-read what I said, and dont put words in my mouth. For too long the Jews have been living as second class citizens all over the world, living under goverments that harbour no love for them. The exact same situation which the palestinians are in now.
Once again, you're seriously devoid of historical knowledge
Show me how they did not build Israel on the ruin of Palestine...
Now, regarding Ben Gurion, who you quoted somewhere else, he did mandate during the pre-stages of the creation of Israel that no native inhabitants were to be displaced! This was a central theme of all but a few of the Zionists.
I think you are somewhat confused. Although Ben Gurion did say that Arabs have the same rights as Jews in Palestine, He would never recognise any sort of political rights for them (this is from a Zionists living in a country who's arab population mkes up 85%!). He basically said that while Arabs did have some rights,They are relegated to their homes and in no-way will there rights stop the creation of Israel...
You really should do some research on this man first.
Blaming Israel for all the problems and not looking at the other side is sheer stupidity (or sheer amnesia). The creation of Israel did create alot of problems, though the cause of these was shared between Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and the Palestinians Agreed, Im not saying that everyone else is saints.
If the Palestinians had accepted the UN partition plan, they'd have significantly more land now than just the West Bank and Gaza
If you look at the population of the Jews when that map was drawn up, and the % of land they were given, you would see that it is GROSSLY unfair.
If however the Zionists had accepted the Peel plan which the Zionistst rejected in 1937 things might be different. If you look at the maps that the Peel plan consisted of, you would see that the % of land given to the Zionists was a FAIR representation to the % of the population at that time. Not only that but they were also offered the most fertile lands in Palestine. If they had accepted this plan than they may have been able to prevent the holocaust even. Why didnt they accept it? simple, they wanted more. Even when they accepted the partition that the UN GA instigated, they knew that they had won but a minor victory, as all of palestine was still not theirs.
But saying Israel was built on the ruins of another nation is utter foolishness.
Not at all. What else do you call it when you have a huge influx of Jews into palestine, then while the jews are still a minority they are telling the rest of the world how they will run Palestine/Israel, then what begins is a compulsory transfer of palestinians from there homes to create a majority of jews in the land (which was the zionists aim from the beginning,read up). This is turn creates hundreds of thousands of refugee's which are not entitled to return to their homeland.
To call it anything else is utter foolishness
If military force could stop terrorism, shouldn't Israel, Sri Lanka, and the United States (to name a few) have gotten rid of it by now? It sort of can...but not sort of cant... Many an attempt of terrorism is stopped by the Israeli military....because they have a military. Whereas Israeli State Terror can go unchecked in the occupied terrortories...because the Palestinians have no military.
It most certianly did have something to do with the state of Israel, the state that the Jews were promising to create and were already making headway in doing so. Weizman who was president of the World Zionists organization went to the Paris Peace conference and stated that he was hoping for 70,000-80,000 Jews to arrive into Palestine each year, he then went on to say that they would create a state and that Palestine would become "as Jewish as England is English". This sentiment and attitude was echoed by all of the major players in the Zionists movement, since the turn of the century and right up until this present time.
Now dont tell me that you wouldnt wage war on a people that came into your country en masse, state to the world you were going to create your own goverment to take over ALL the land and as Ben Gurions put it "Reduce the population to a community of woodcutters and waiters". I know I sure as hell would have something to say about it.
When all the neighboring Arab nations invaded Israel in 1948, it was billed as a war of "extermination".
'all the Arab nations' doesnt really mean much in terms of military might. The Israeli army was just as strong if not stronger at the time...obviously The zionists made it clear from the beginning that they wanted ALL of Israel, and were willing to ethnicly cleanse the population (by Compulsory transfer or other means..) to achieve this goal. Not only were they willing, but they knew that this was the only method to re-claim the "promised land". The JEWS made it into a matter of "its either you or us".
They focused on killing Israeli civilians instead of the military to the point that it seriously hurt their war effort.
I hope your not suggesting that they targeted civilians to the point that the military was affected little. 20% of the dead were civilians, 80% military. Also, interesting statistic to note is that half of the Israeli casualties were caused in Israeli offensives OUTSIDE the area specified by the UN.
When the PLO was founded in 1964 and immediately set about trying to kill Israeli civilians, that certainly wasn't a reaction to events which happened three years later.
This could be well true, but dont confuse the PLO of yesteryear to that of today.
Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the PFLP, and The Al-Aqsa Martyrs gang all have the same avowed goal: Getting rid of Israel completely. They're not shy about saying that, either.
and Vice Versa. The Zionists have the same goals of getting rid of Palestine (which they have done) and ridding themselves of the Palestinian people, the burden that comes with usurping their land. The following comes to us from an Israeli PM "With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement] .... I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it."
They will not accept the existence of Israel at all.
As the jews wont accept a REAL state of Palestine (yes I DO challenge you to show me a time when Israel has done so). So basically...that makes them both as bad as eachother..but lets not forget, it was the Jews who Usurped Palestine.
They will not accept the existence of any Jews in the Middle East (which in time-honored blood-and-soil fashion they regard as "Arab land") who are not under Arab rule (or at all, depending on which spokesman you listen to). The "moderates" in those groups claim that they will accept the presence of those Jews whose ancestors lived on that land continuously since biblical times, and kill or deport the others;
are you making these points to somehow distinguish the high moral posistion of Israel Vs lowly dog arabs? Israel's posistion on the Arabs is just as extreme, and whats even scarier, is that they have implemented there policies and are continuing to do so.
the main stream would rather kill any Jews they can get their hands on and disposess the rest (never mind the 850,000 or so Jewish refugees in Israel who were born in Arab nations,
DISPOSSES!?!?!?!?!?! You mean take back the land that was taken from them....
People always say "oh, they will drive the Jews into the sea". Give me a break. Im sure there is much re-sentment against the Jews, most of which is well deserved. There is never going to be any sort of 'mass-murders' of Jews at the Palestinians hands....Israel has the 4th most poweful army in the world, the palestinian people are nothing more than a mosquito to them, and they treat them as such. and lets not forget the 700,000 palestinians who have been forced from their own houses and land and have been told by the Israeli Goverment they are not allowed to return..ever.
but had all their property confiscated and had to flee for their lives;
As the Palestinians had their property confiscated/looted and they had to flee their land...that which is now Israel. another quote from Ben Gurion "[They] said it was imperative to expel the Arabs [in the area] and to burn the villages. For me, the matter was very difficult. [But] they said that they were not sure [the kibbutz could continue to exist] if the villages remained intact and [if] the Arab inhabitants were not expelled, for they [i.e. the Palestinian Arabs villagers] would [later] attack them [i.e. Mishmar Ha'emek].
When Israel unilaterally withdrew from South Lebanon a couple of years back (though they had a perfect right to be there under international law, on the grounds that the Lebanese had been -- once again! -- coming over the border and massacring Israeli civilians)
Actually, they were told to withdraw. Yes they did withdraw, not before committing a couple of massacres on refugee camps though.
Bottom line: Giving in to some of the terrorists' demands will not encourage them to drop the rest of their demands. To the contrary, they'll take it as encouragement to redouble their efforts. When you give in to extortion, the extortionist always demands more. Always.
Bottomline is... When a people invade your country, take your land, bulldoze/burn your villages, expel a significant % of the population tellin them they can never return, Setup checkpoints that control your comings and goings everyday, Issue you with ID cards that must be carried with you at alltimes (you are jailed if you dont have it on you), taxed heavily by an apartheid and racists goverment (yes Israel is making a lot of money from The westbank and Gaza), having your dignity taken from you...and YOU DO NOTHING, they will continue to walk all over you forever.Always.
Ending the settlements is not Hamas' endgame. Their goal w/r/t Israel, like most of the rest of the Arab world, is ethnic cleansing on a grand scale, and they'll settle for nothing less.
lol...Israel has an Overwhelmingly powerful army. No arab nation is going to touch them. Stop playing up this 'ethnic cleansing' argument. Its not going to happen, period. Whereas the Israeli's have shown that they are ready and willing to partake in the ethnic cleansing and compulsory transfer of the Palestinians.
They'll never accomplish that, but bribing them to kill more civilians won't help them come to grips with the reality that a reasonable, just peace is the only option anybody's got (where "reasonable", "just", and "peace" mean "NOBODY kills ANYBODY" -- none of this European notion that "peace" means "the Jews stop defending themselves while the Arabs go on killing".)
The Zionists have never been interested in a reasonable and just peace, never. If you want I could sit here all night pointing out facts that show this is not the case, but I would rather you research some Zionists history yourself.
"We do not seek an agreement with the [Palestinian] Arabs in order to secure the peace. Of course we regard peace as an essential thing. It is impossible to build up the country in a state of permanent warfare. But peace for us is a means, and not an end. The end is the fulfillment of Zionism in its maximum scope. Only for this reason do we need peace, and do we need an agreement." Another quote from Ben Gurion
...Im sure you understand what "Maximum Scope" means....it means all of Pleastine...in fact, it means MORE than Palestine. Nothing has changed. They dont want peace, they want Palestine. They cannot obtain "greater israel" and judea through peace, the palestinians wont simply hand it over. That leaves no other option for them.
The above is a quote...not from some renegade jew who has a chip on his shoulder, but it was said by the current democraticly elected prime minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon...what a guy....
>However, there are several dozen other countries >doing things far worse than Israel (Sudan for >instance, 2 million dead in ongoing civil war, >slavery of black Christians, etc), but nobody >seems to give a shit about these atrocities
Thats true. But that doesnt make the atrocities of Israel any less, nor does it mean we should ignore the issue.
>Secondly, you are either too young or have only >a short-term memory. Before there was any >occupied territories, there was terror, attacks, >and outright war launched at the state of >Israel. And even before Israel was a country, >there was terror and attacks on the Jews living >in the land now called Israel/Palestine. .
Just as there were Zionists bombing Palestinian buildings and infastructure before the creation of Israel. The Jews who were native to palestine made up a tiny (I think 2-4% land ownership at the turn of the century) part of the populaiton, and in those days there werent any major issues AFAIK. It was after the huge influx and importation of jews from mainly europe via the Zionists movement that things started to beocme unpleasant (and these jews were brought in with the mind to create some legitamacy to an otherwise absurd claim to the land...based purely on ancient torah scrolls)
>I think Israeli's hearts have hardened, after >having fallen prey to Russian pogroms, the >Holocaust, and centuries of other European anti->semitism
There hearts have hardened as their memory also has. Its suprising how quickly people forget and the oppressed become the oppresser.
>Golda Meir basically summed it up by saying (rougly) "We'd rather have people not be happy >with us than be pitied and dead."
Im sure they would rather people not be happy with them. That still doesnt give them the right to build a nation on the ruins of another.