This sounds expensive. Who is going to pay for it? The ISPs? The government?
If you're Canadian... you are. In more than one sense of the phrase "pay for it".
I'm truly sorry to see Canada heading down this garden path, for a long time I looked towards Canada and its central government as being, in many respects, far more trustworthy than mine. I sense a rising level of paranoia, and concomitant need to control, amongst your leadership, much has been happening with ours (yes, I'm an American.) That and the undue influence provided by the media companies, who no doubt are a big part of this "proposal". Certainly they will benefit from it.
However, you do need one to molest your children and Grandma at the airport, and take naked pictures of your family
No, you don't even need one for that. You just need people who believe that such things are in your best interests. They'll naturally form whatever Departments and other 3-letter organizations are necessary to achieve their goals. Note: those may not be the same goals as those of the population at large.
Amazing what one (albeit largely successful) terrorist attack can achieve, and it didn't even happen in Canada. There was a time, really not that long ago, when any such proposal would have been greeted with much-deserved laughter, on either side of the border.
I can respect someone who stands on principle, but principle doesn't pay the mortgage.
You're not "standing on principle" unless you're willing to risk important things, such as the mortgage, to do that. Otherwise you're choosing expedience over principle, and any stated regard for principle is mostly posturing.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. And of course even a principled person has to make choices between important things, and may reasonably choose the mortgage, particularly if they have children.
But sometimes its better for kids to grow up in an apartment with honest parents than in a house with people who will trade their society's future economic health for temporary comfort.
Not really disagreeing with you, but if your principles compel you to take less job satisfaction that you might prefer, in order that your children have a better life and a brighter future... well, that's a principled stand as well.
Done more than my share of this...especially in the gaming industry. Was able to pay the bills...but the lack of respect...management who could spell that word and looking over my shoulder every moment of the day is certainly no way to live your life.
I worked as a game programmer some twenty five years ago, for two different companies, and that was exactly my experience.
I've done grunt labour outdoors, in low-40s heat (110+ degrees Fahrenheit) - and I'd still rather go back to that than compromise my principles by supporting a closed language. (Of course, it helps that the money in mining labour jobs is actually pretty good.)
What changes that belief, fast, is when there are other people who depend upon your income, and for whom you care. You will find that you will compromise your principles fast when it comes down to a choice of having a meal on the table and the power on, versus living out of your car or standing in line at the unemployment office.
There's no question in my mind that the US is behind this (probably working in conjunction with the Western allies including Israle)
Why? Just because you would like it to be? As has been pointed out in several other posts, a lot of countries (and individuals, and private-sector organizations) could have the moxie to pull this off, and likewise could have the motivation. We aren't the only nation that are concerned about Iran, and what its plans for nuclear weapons actually are.
its good practice for next time when whoever it is does something really nasty, and they will.
Well, this particular group may not... but they've definitely shown what's possible, which means others will be looking into the possibility of doing something similar.
It could be a guy in someone's basement who gets amusement from it the same way someone gets amusement from cracking root and rm-ing / on a university system.
And if that guy were in his parent's basement, it could easily be a Slashdotter.
Now, if I were an ISP I wouldn't promise that IPs would NEVER change - that just creates a routing headache when you need to refactor your network layout.
Correct, and as I said they called it a "permanent" IP, not a static one. I knew what it meant, and that was fine by me.
"No, it means that you have some childish fuckwit hogging hours of modem time on a system with a single phone line."
Just kick them off, then. I'm not saying I'm against that, I'm just saying that getting law enforcement involved (yes, I know that didn't happen in this case) or being extremely oversensitive is both idiotic and doesn't help. Really, just forbid these people from using it.
"Dude, you're out of line here because you obviously (obviously!) don't understand what those days were like."
I know it was slow. Really slow. Things that they find offensive and/or useless are not necessary offensive or useless.
No, it wasn't so much slow (it was, but it was strictly text based, no graphics, simple command line) as it was limited. ONE PHONE LINE. It didn't have a system operator standing by 24/7 to kick off the little fruitbats that thought they were being cute (it was run out of Randy Suess' basement, for God's sake.) That kid was quite literally destroying that resource for everyone, and whatever it was that Ward & Randy did to get him to go away is fine by me.
The reason I brought this up (which you steadfastly refuse to understand and keep focusing on "offensiveness") is that an honor system fails very quickly when even a small number of members act dishonorably or destructively. The mental and social caliber of the people using that system at the time far outstrips the average Slashdotter, I will tell you that much. These were genuinely smart technical people, of all kinds, who had come to enjoy and depend upon that system, and the connections to other people that it afforded. And much of why they frequented CBBS was because of the civil discourse.
That's why Ward and Randy built, wrote and maintained it. Your carrying on about how people should be "thicker skinned" may have a place in the modern world but it did not then.
There are always children (or adults with childlike mentalities) who enjoy raising hate and discontent...
Why is it so prevalent to demonize children?
I didn't. I said "children (or adults with childlike mentalities.") If that qualifies as demonizing children to you, well, I don't know what to say. And in the schools I grew up in, frankly, the children were far more demonic than any adults I encountered later in life. Kids frankly deserve some demonizing (as well as better parenting.)
Yeah, I think a little jail time was in order. After all, if someone posts 'offensive' content (no matter where it is), they should be jailed immediately.
Wow. I clearly said, "depending upon where he hails from", indicating my understanding that legal systems vary from place to place. You're welcome to disagree with me, however I would appreciate your having read and comprehended my post first.
Then you can tell me which of those you consider having caused a greater degree of harm, what I posted on the internet or what I did with the can of spraypaint.
Irrelevant. Either can cause "harm" and it depends entirely upon the situation. If I were trying to sell that car because I needed the money for a medical procedure, and you drove away my potential customers, you no longer get to say "where's the harm? It was just a joke!"
In this case, you have one person who is causing so much difficulty for a data system used by millions of people that it may very well get millions blocked from accessing that same resource.
That's interesting. I tried to search for that on Google and only came up with a reference back to your post. Is that a part of internet pre-history or is it just your personal memory?
And seeing as it's been thirty years I may have gotten the kid's name wrong. I haven't actually thought about it in about that long.
"And when you are forced to read some messages you dont like on SLOW system it is much different from ignoring some post on WWW forum."
Yes, because if you find something offensive, that instantly means that it's bad and useless.
No, it means that you have some childish fuckwit hogging hours of modem time on a system with a single phone line. That system's success depended entirely on the good behavior of its users. The fact that he was posting obnoxiousness was just icing on the cake, and we all applauded Ward and Randy for putting the kid in his place. Most of us wanted to tar and feather the bastard, that's how we felt about it.
Dude, you're out of line here because you obviously (obviously!) don't understand what those days were like. CBBS had a very specific focus, and you would get in trouble with Ward (the self-proclaimed "BBS Cop") if you got too far astray of the technical issues the board was founded to discuss. And that was without your being an ass: CBBS was a limited resource, and it was very popular, and people like Mr. Scopes were neither welcome nor tolerable.
It was not all like when Aquila BBS in Aurora and Executive BBS in (Boston, was it?) went online and had dozens of lines (I ran a sixteen node Wildcat! board myself some years later, once BBS software went mainstream.) This was a simple, straightforward bulletin board system, with a very clannish set of regular clientele, and Mr. Scopes commentary was not appreciated by any of us.
You obviously don't understand how a BBS works. When you signed into a BBS (remmeber, this was before "internet"), you did so directly with your PHONE LINE, there were no ISP's. No "tracking down" was required, you could litterally just phone them back.
By your definition, reading the call display when someone prank calls you and phoning back to talk to the parents is "tracking them down".
Plus which, remember also that CBBS only had ONE phone line: it was a shared community resource, and this kid was, in fact, causing problems.
i didn't imagine a break... i don't imagine a break... I UNDERSTAND ANONYMITY. i also understand that a physical location does not identify an individual.
you're an idiot.
why do you cower? what are you afraid of?
you're completely pathetic.
Mr. Scopes, how nice to see you after all this time.
That's interesting. I tried to search for that on Google and only came up with a reference back to your post. Is that a part of internet pre-history or is it just your personal memory?
Well, I did actually meet Randy Suess (not that he'd remember me, I was just there visiting with an acquaintance) and I did get to see CBBS #1, and I was a regular user of the system at that time. So yes, it's just personal memory. Take it as you please. I just thought it was relevant to show that the kind of behavior we're discussing is nothing new even in the pre-Internet days.
Get a grip. Wikipedia allows anonymous editing.No laws are being broken. Stop taking yourself so seriously. It's *not* becoming, and really, you look like a fool.
like the impossible hoop of obtaining access to free public wi-fi... if only such a thing existed... if only such a thing existed in almost every square foot of any reasonably sized metropolitan area.......
WHAT A HOOP#!%*(&!#
you're an idiot.
Depends. If (and I say if) this were to become a law enforcement matter, those recorded IPs could at least put them in the right area. Good police work could do the rest. Again, that's assuming he's even in the country and that's by no means a given.
wikipedia provides a public internet website intended to be edited by users... a user simply utilized the service as designed, and you believe jail time might be in order?! is that you, adolf? the system wasn't broken, it was used as designed.
a little jobless time might be in order for the system administrators that designed the broken system.
Furthermore, there's a big difference between something being done because a system happens to allow it, and being done according to the intent of the designers. What this little fucker has been doing can by no stretch of the imagination be considered in compliance with the intent of Wikipedia. Presumably he or she is aware of that: if not, said person is probably a sociopath.
Slashdot Mirror
This sounds expensive. Who is going to pay for it? The ISPs? The government?
If you're Canadian ... you are. In more than one sense of the phrase "pay for it".
I'm truly sorry to see Canada heading down this garden path, for a long time I looked towards Canada and its central government as being, in many respects, far more trustworthy than mine. I sense a rising level of paranoia, and concomitant need to control, amongst your leadership, much has been happening with ours (yes, I'm an American.) That and the undue influence provided by the media companies, who no doubt are a big part of this "proposal". Certainly they will benefit from it.
However, you do need one to molest your children and Grandma at the airport, and take naked pictures of your family
No, you don't even need one for that. You just need people who believe that such things are in your best interests. They'll naturally form whatever Departments and other 3-letter organizations are necessary to achieve their goals. Note: those may not be the same goals as those of the population at large.
Amazing what one (albeit largely successful) terrorist attack can achieve, and it didn't even happen in Canada. There was a time, really not that long ago, when any such proposal would have been greeted with much-deserved laughter, on either side of the border.
I can respect someone who stands on principle, but principle doesn't pay the mortgage.
You're not "standing on principle" unless you're willing to risk important things, such as the mortgage, to do that. Otherwise you're choosing expedience over principle, and any stated regard for principle is mostly posturing.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. And of course even a principled person has to make choices between important things, and may reasonably choose the mortgage, particularly if they have children.
But sometimes its better for kids to grow up in an apartment with honest parents than in a house with people who will trade their society's future economic health for temporary comfort.
Not really disagreeing with you, but if your principles compel you to take less job satisfaction that you might prefer, in order that your children have a better life and a brighter future ... well, that's a principled stand as well.
Done more than my share of this...especially in the gaming industry. Was able to pay the bills...but the lack of respect...management who could spell that word and looking over my shoulder every moment of the day is certainly no way to live your life.
I worked as a game programmer some twenty five years ago, for two different companies, and that was exactly my experience.
I've done grunt labour outdoors, in low-40s heat (110+ degrees Fahrenheit) - and I'd still rather go back to that than compromise my principles by supporting a closed language. (Of course, it helps that the money in mining labour jobs is actually pretty good.)
What changes that belief, fast, is when there are other people who depend upon your income, and for whom you care. You will find that you will compromise your principles fast when it comes down to a choice of having a meal on the table and the power on, versus living out of your car or standing in line at the unemployment office.
Yep... I used to read kernel-dev occasionally. Lordy, what a bunch....
They could melt a newbie poster's keyboard from a thousand miles away.
Given the choice between the Americans and the mullahs, I think I'd take my chances with the yanks.
Thank you ... I think.
There's no question in my mind that the US is behind this (probably working in conjunction with the Western allies including Israle)
Why? Just because you would like it to be? As has been pointed out in several other posts, a lot of countries (and individuals, and private-sector organizations) could have the moxie to pull this off, and likewise could have the motivation. We aren't the only nation that are concerned about Iran, and what its plans for nuclear weapons actually are.
its good practice for next time when whoever it is does something really nasty, and they will.
Well, this particular group may not ... but they've definitely shown what's possible, which means others will be looking into the possibility of doing something similar.
It could be a guy in someone's basement who gets amusement from it the same way someone gets amusement from cracking root and rm-ing / on a university system.
And if that guy were in his parent's basement, it could easily be a Slashdotter.
Now, if I were an ISP I wouldn't promise that IPs would NEVER change - that just creates a routing headache when you need to refactor your network layout.
Correct, and as I said they called it a "permanent" IP, not a static one. I knew what it meant, and that was fine by me.
"No, it means that you have some childish fuckwit hogging hours of modem time on a system with a single phone line."
Just kick them off, then. I'm not saying I'm against that, I'm just saying that getting law enforcement involved (yes, I know that didn't happen in this case) or being extremely oversensitive is both idiotic and doesn't help. Really, just forbid these people from using it.
"Dude, you're out of line here because you obviously (obviously!) don't understand what those days were like."
I know it was slow. Really slow. Things that they find offensive and/or useless are not necessary offensive or useless.
No, it wasn't so much slow (it was, but it was strictly text based, no graphics, simple command line) as it was limited. ONE PHONE LINE. It didn't have a system operator standing by 24/7 to kick off the little fruitbats that thought they were being cute (it was run out of Randy Suess' basement, for God's sake.) That kid was quite literally destroying that resource for everyone, and whatever it was that Ward & Randy did to get him to go away is fine by me.
The reason I brought this up (which you steadfastly refuse to understand and keep focusing on "offensiveness") is that an honor system fails very quickly when even a small number of members act dishonorably or destructively. The mental and social caliber of the people using that system at the time far outstrips the average Slashdotter, I will tell you that much. These were genuinely smart technical people, of all kinds, who had come to enjoy and depend upon that system, and the connections to other people that it afforded. And much of why they frequented CBBS was because of the civil discourse.
That's why Ward and Randy built, wrote and maintained it. Your carrying on about how people should be "thicker skinned" may have a place in the modern world but it did not then.
There are always children (or adults with childlike mentalities) who enjoy raising hate and discontent...
Why is it so prevalent to demonize children?
I didn't. I said "children (or adults with childlike mentalities.") If that qualifies as demonizing children to you, well, I don't know what to say. And in the schools I grew up in, frankly, the children were far more demonic than any adults I encountered later in life. Kids frankly deserve some demonizing (as well as better parenting.)
I sometimes think we were better off when BBSs and Usenet made us all grow up and develop an elephant's hide.
If you want to know what that's like, just post some stupid Linux question in a kernel developer's forum.
Yeah, I think a little jail time was in order. After all, if someone posts 'offensive' content (no matter where it is), they should be jailed immediately.
Wow. I clearly said, "depending upon where he hails from", indicating my understanding that legal systems vary from place to place. You're welcome to disagree with me, however I would appreciate your having read and comprehended my post first.
ur mum's face took a wicked michael david kristopeit earlier today.
why do you cower? what are you afraid of?
you're completely pathetic.
Interestingly, this is exactly the kind of pointless, vindictive commentary the young Mr. Scopes foisted upon an otherwise defenseless CBBS.
The rest of you can nitpick my original post all you want, but I think Mr. Kristopeit illustrated my primary point quite nicely for me.
Then you can tell me which of those you consider having caused a greater degree of harm, what I posted on the internet or what I did with the can of spraypaint.
Irrelevant. Either can cause "harm" and it depends entirely upon the situation. If I were trying to sell that car because I needed the money for a medical procedure, and you drove away my potential customers, you no longer get to say "where's the harm? It was just a joke!"
In this case, you have one person who is causing so much difficulty for a data system used by millions of people that it may very well get millions blocked from accessing that same resource.
No harm? It was just a joke?
That's interesting. I tried to search for that on Google and only came up with a reference back to your post. Is that a part of internet pre-history or is it just your personal memory?
And seeing as it's been thirty years I may have gotten the kid's name wrong. I haven't actually thought about it in about that long.
I know.
"And when you are forced to read some messages you dont like on SLOW system it is much different from ignoring some post on WWW forum."
Yes, because if you find something offensive, that instantly means that it's bad and useless.
No, it means that you have some childish fuckwit hogging hours of modem time on a system with a single phone line. That system's success depended entirely on the good behavior of its users. The fact that he was posting obnoxiousness was just icing on the cake, and we all applauded Ward and Randy for putting the kid in his place. Most of us wanted to tar and feather the bastard, that's how we felt about it.
Dude, you're out of line here because you obviously (obviously!) don't understand what those days were like. CBBS had a very specific focus, and you would get in trouble with Ward (the self-proclaimed "BBS Cop") if you got too far astray of the technical issues the board was founded to discuss. And that was without your being an ass: CBBS was a limited resource, and it was very popular, and people like Mr. Scopes were neither welcome nor tolerable.
It was not all like when Aquila BBS in Aurora and Executive BBS in (Boston, was it?) went online and had dozens of lines (I ran a sixteen node Wildcat! board myself some years later, once BBS software went mainstream.) This was a simple, straightforward bulletin board system, with a very clannish set of regular clientele, and Mr. Scopes commentary was not appreciated by any of us.
You obviously don't understand how a BBS works. When you signed into a BBS (remmeber, this was before "internet"), you did so directly with your PHONE LINE, there were no ISP's. No "tracking down" was required, you could litterally just phone them back. By your definition, reading the call display when someone prank calls you and phoning back to talk to the parents is "tracking them down".
Plus which, remember also that CBBS only had ONE phone line: it was a shared community resource, and this kid was, in fact, causing problems.
i didn't imagine a break... i don't imagine a break... I UNDERSTAND ANONYMITY. i also understand that a physical location does not identify an individual.
you're an idiot.
why do you cower? what are you afraid of?
you're completely pathetic.
Mr. Scopes, how nice to see you after all this time.
That's interesting. I tried to search for that on Google and only came up with a reference back to your post. Is that a part of internet pre-history or is it just your personal memory?
Well, I did actually meet Randy Suess (not that he'd remember me, I was just there visiting with an acquaintance) and I did get to see CBBS #1, and I was a regular user of the system at that time. So yes, it's just personal memory. Take it as you please. I just thought it was relevant to show that the kind of behavior we're discussing is nothing new even in the pre-Internet days.
A little jail time might be in order as well
Get a grip. Wikipedia allows anonymous editing.No laws are being broken. Stop taking yourself so seriously. It's *not* becoming, and really, you look like a fool.
You forgot about "depending upon where he happens to hail from. ". In some places, you can be jailed for claiming you're God
Thank you. Some people tend to gloss over things that might force them to skip their rant.
like the impossible hoop of obtaining access to free public wi-fi... if only such a thing existed... if only such a thing existed in almost every square foot of any reasonably sized metropolitan area.......
WHAT A HOOP#!%*(&!#
you're an idiot.
Depends. If (and I say if) this were to become a law enforcement matter, those recorded IPs could at least put them in the right area. Good police work could do the rest. Again, that's assuming he's even in the country and that's by no means a given.
wikipedia provides a public internet website intended to be edited by users... a user simply utilized the service as designed, and you believe jail time might be in order?! is that you, adolf? the system wasn't broken, it was used as designed.
a little jobless time might be in order for the system administrators that designed the broken system.
Furthermore, there's a big difference between something being done because a system happens to allow it, and being done according to the intent of the designers. What this little fucker has been doing can by no stretch of the imagination be considered in compliance with the intent of Wikipedia. Presumably he or she is aware of that: if not, said person is probably a sociopath.