1) If the grid can handle peak loads during the day (and it usually can), then it can handle additional load at night charging EVs. So much so that some utility companies are experimenting with domestic TOU rates so you pay a lower rate to charge your EV at night. Spinning reserve actually costs utilities money, and increasing off-peak loads actually does them a favor.
2) The power companies have a LOT of interest in making sure their distribution grid and generating capacity is up to snuff. The problem, however, is not nearly as bad as it seems... adding an EV to a home is equivalent to adding a medium sized air conditioner or a small electric stove. Utility companies aren't idiots and have generally been keeping an eye on the future (PDF).
3) I support a mileage based road usage fee adjusted for vehicle weight. With current state and federal tax on gasoline I pay only about 1 cent per mile towards road maintenance... I'd have no problem paying that if I drove an EV and the finances are hardly affected at all. Keep the taxes on fossil fuels to pay for the costs their burning directly contributes to, like national defense, environmental protection and health care.
4) I originally did the lease comparison for an Nissan LEAF, but it works the same for a Volt if you just bump the base price up. With a Volt I'd still basically uses all-electric range. *shrug* I'd prefer a LEAF over the Volt, though, for various reasons. =Smidge=
Okay, 200 amps at 240V is 48kW. You'd have to hit peak usage every day of the month to reach 1400kWh. My home is all electric except for the heating (oil) which is fine since it probably gets a lot colder here than it does in Cali... if I use 200kWh in a month that's a lot.
If you're hitting Tier 3 rates in a private home maybe you need to reevaluate your lifestyle for all sorts of reasons. =Smidge=
I show the math and you immediately fall back on the tax thing. Makes you look like a little bitch, y'know.
So the ability to deduct your tax liability is a subsidy? Decreasing taxes is a subsidy, is it? Tax cuts are actually a form of spending? Are you sure you want to go that route? (Or perhaps you don't know the difference between a deduction and a rebate?)
Fine. The petroleum industry gets tens of billions of dollars a year ($70+ billion to be more exact) in "subsidies" in the form of both tax breaks and direct spending. Let's end those, too. Now that gasoline is upwards of $10/gallon I'd be saving $240/mo and it's an even better deal for me. Thanks, wingnut! =Smidge=
The highest rate I could find in Redding, CA is 32c/kWh, and that's at Tier 3 usages (>1400kWh per month). I don't know what the hell you're doing if your home us using >1400kWh per month... Probably not charging an electric car...
Maybe you're citing some kind of commercial/industrial peak rate? =Smidge=
It could be charging the battery at the same time, putting a larger portion of the fuel's energy into something useful and STILL be generating the required heat. It does not do this AFAIK, however, so the engine just idles uselessly to make heat.
Just because the computer determines it's better to run the engine than heat the battery electrically, doesn't mean there aren't further optimizations to be made. =Smidge=
No, my math is correct. Don't forget that if you lease, the dealer claims the $7,500 federal tax incentive (perhaps soon to be $10,000?) so that comes right off the top of the car's price. At that point you are no longer comparing $40K to $20K, you're comparing $32K to $20K. This makes ALL the difference.
So... assuming MSRP minus incentive for a gross capitalized cost of approx. $32,000. 36 month lease, 45% residual. Bullshit fees and tax paid up front, plus $4,000 down (total money down: ~$8,100). Monthly payment is $370/mo.
Based on the last 12 months of driving (9557.2 mi) and assuming $4/gallon + 28.88 MPG average over the past 12 months (yes, I keep detailed records), I would be saving about $110/mo. Based on mileage and electricity costs, I would be paying about $35/mo in electricity. Net savings of $75/mo which makes leasing this car comparable to $295/mo. Working backwards, with the same terms and down payment, that's equivalent to a $22,500 vehicle.
So I rounded off from memory instead of re-opening my spreadsheet and was off by $2,500. Sue me. *shrug*
You'll probably complain about the large money down sum. Fine, but it cuts both ways... How much I put down is irrelevant to the relative cost. Example: At $1,000 down the payments become $460 and $385 respectively - still a $75 difference.
I used a 0.00224 money factor and a 15,000 mile/yr lease if you want to try it at home. I'll be happy to compare notes. =Smidge=
The fact that the engine can drive the wheels directly at all is another minor gripe many have with the Volt, since that was revealed after GM's representatives swore up and down that it never happens. But that's another discussion since the circumstances under which this happens are fairly rare for most people.
99% of the time, the Volt runs as a serial hybrid.
Just to be clear, I've nothing against the Volt as a machine nor anything against GM's engineers. It's their corporate douchebags that are screwing everything up. =Smidge=
You are absolutely correct that running the electric heater decreases drivable range. EV manufacturers and owners have employed various tactics to deal with this: Preheating the car while it's still plugged in is the primary one, which significantly decreases the load on the heating system. The Nissan LEAF comes with a heated steering wheel and heated seats to keep the driver and passenger(s) warm without heating the entire cabin. Some owners have tried 12V electric blankets, adding homebrew or aftermarket heating systems, or most often just dressing warmly for the trip.
But the real issue is not cabin heating, it's keeping the battery warm. A cold battery means lethargic chemistry, which means reduced power and (temporarily) lost capacity. This is the true nature of EVs in extreme climates.
Fun fact: If the Volt's computer deems it the most efficient method, the gas engine will run just to generate heat. What a waste IMHO... =Smidge=
The infamous Section 179 "Hummer Deduction" was essentially a loophole in the tax code that allowed businesses to write off the full price of SUVs under an incentive plan intended for commercial grade trucks and other equipment.
Basically if you owned a business you could buy luxury SUVs pretty much for free.
They fixed that a few years ago but there's still some tax incentive to buy unnecessarily heavy vehicles for personal transport. =Smidge=
The mere fact it has a gas engine makes it a hybrid.
It's a serial hybrid, like a diesel-electric locomotive, rather than a parallel hybrid like the Prius and every other hybrid passenger vehicle on the road, but a hybrid nonetheless. it will never not need gasoline to operate properly: Even if you never exceed the all-electric range, it will burn gasoline.
GM's misguided attempt to redefine things is part of what is giving them problems. The early adopter, electric-vehicle-wanting crowd they are trying to sell to is, in my experience, overall technically savvy when it comes to this sort of thing and they do not appreciate the games GM is playing.
Also, there is a special case where the gas engine is mechanically coupled to the wheels. =Smidge=
The Volt costs $0.90 less per mile to run on electric mode than the Prius. When the gasoline engine kicks in, the Volt costs $0.80 *more* per mile.
How did you get those numbers? Even at $5/gal gas, fuel costs would only be around $0.15 per mile. Where are these other expenses coming from? =Smidge=
We can blame this on GM corporate for having their heads up their asses. If what you say is true and your local dealer has such a waiting list with no on-lot inventory, then he needs to call in a complaint. Just a few weeks ago there were stories of dealers turning down deliveries because they weren't selling. =Smidge=
Guess that explains why California is the most popular market for all-electric vehicles. Oh wait, no it doesn't...
To be on cost-per-mile par with $4.50/gal gasoline electricity would have to cost over $0.50 per kWh. (Comparing 30MPG to 3.5mi/kWh economies). Where in California are people paying north of $0.50 per kWh?
Once you've answered that we can discuss TOU metering schemes that actually make electricity for charging EVs cheaper than the nominal daytime rate. =Smidge=
It's hard to tell what demand is like for the LEAF since there is still a registration list to get one, and the market has only recently been expanded to include the entire US - it was limited to select states for the first year of availability. The only place you're likely to find one on a dealer's lot without a deposit on it is in the initial rollout states, and it might be an orphan (a car someone reserved online but did not follow through with purchasing).
We probably won't know until 2013 or 2014 when the Tennessee plant opens up and starts production. Right now every LEAF is built in Japan and distributed to markets around the world.
...and the Volt is not an electric car. It's a hybrid. =Smidge=
The Volt isn't an electric car, and that's part of the problem. It's a serial hybrid. GM's marketing has been extremely disingenuous with their claims and how they manipulate figures.
As for the EV1 lovers, many of them are doubly miffed at GM for still not taking the electric car market seriously and producing an expensive hybrid instead. Enthusiasts have long memories.
While Volts sit in dealer's lots gathering dust, Nissan can't produce their LEAFs fast enough. There is demand for a pure electric vehicle. =Smidge=
I'm never going to save $15k - $20k in gas over the life of the car, so buying a comparable car that runs on gasoline is probably a better value.
Lately I've been finding this argument a little disingenuous. For example, if I were to lease a $38K all-electric vehicle my payments would be roughly $360/mo. At $4/gal the money I'd save on gasoline would make my monthly payments comparable to leasing a vehicle worth $20K under identical terms*. In terms of affordability, these who vehicles would almost the same for the duration of the lease. And yes, I figured the cost of electricity as well as gasoline.
The cost difference manifests only in the residual cost, but I need not pay that if I decide not to buy out.
Assuming your budget stretches to such luxuries, sure. I know many people for whom $5.80 a week will either have to come out of their budget for staples.
Maybe they should try paperclips, which are reusable.:) =Smidge=
but they still have to pay the gas cause they got no choice. electric cars is not here to invade the market for tomorrow
Oddly enough, just yesterday Nissan announced that their all-electric LEAF is now available nationwide in the USA. Ford's all-electric version of the Focus is supposed to hit dealer showrooms this spring. The GM/Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid has been available for quite some time now, and the new plugin-in Prius has just started shipping to the US.
As for the cost? It's not terribly likely you'll see a major hike in electricity prices because of them. Utilities are actually offering incentives for EV owners, in the form of special rate structures and metering options (dedicated meter for EV chraging, TOU metering, etc). Incentives for installing solar panels is also at an all-time high, and many of those that buy both EVs and solar panels end up eliminating their gasoline expenses and actually reducing their electricity expenses. =Smidge=
How would you, as a private individual, know if a particular batch was "bad" before the doctor knew? Presumably you'd learn about the contamination from a news outlet, and the news outlet would learn about it from a health organization that issued a broad alert to doctors and distributors for recall. That organization would have been most likely informed by the manufacturer after testing revealed problems.
So even if you somehow knew a batch was bad, your doctor should already know. Even if he didn't know, refusing treatment is an extreme way to go about it: explain to the doctor that you heard about a bad batch floating around and to look into it, and come back when he's sure he's not dipping into tainted supplies.
Sorry about "your mom's friend" but if that story is true are you absolutely sure it was from the vaccine itself and not a botched injection procedure or other complication? Assuming the condition was related to the injection at all, that is. What odds do you like better? 1 in 1,000,000 that you'll be paralyzed with a 80% chance of recovery within a year, or say 1 in 1,000 to as high as 1 in 25 chance you'll die? =Smidge=
I think the implications are a little more insidious. E-begging is one thing and there's nothing ethically wrong with that IMHO - at least people know you're just asking for cash to spend on yourself. But consider another possible scenario:
Step 1: Post fundraising goal of $x for some really good sounding (but fake) cause/project. ("My 2-year-old daughter has leukemia and I've been out of work for six months...")
Step 2: Wait for donations to accumulate
Step 3: If donations fail to reach tipping point, put your own money ($y) in until it does - causing third party donors to be charged and funds released.
Step 4: Vanish with ($x - $y) profit.
Get something going on Facebook and you'll have thousands of people chipping in $5 or whatever no questions asked. Granted this is possible for Kickstarter as well (would need a different cover story), but with having each donation drive screened you hopefully have some due diligence going on to verify their legitimacy. Maybe. =Smidge=
If you've actually seen any of the TV ads for the Volt, they basically involve the driver/owner being harassed by confused onlookers arguing over whether it's gas or electric, with the owner sheepishly trying to explain that it's both.
They're terrible ads that leave the viewer confused. I'm sure it's not the only problem but that ain't helping. =Smidge=
Slashdot Mirror
Couple of points:
1) If the grid can handle peak loads during the day (and it usually can), then it can handle additional load at night charging EVs. So much so that some utility companies are experimenting with domestic TOU rates so you pay a lower rate to charge your EV at night. Spinning reserve actually costs utilities money, and increasing off-peak loads actually does them a favor.
2) The power companies have a LOT of interest in making sure their distribution grid and generating capacity is up to snuff. The problem, however, is not nearly as bad as it seems... adding an EV to a home is equivalent to adding a medium sized air conditioner or a small electric stove. Utility companies aren't idiots and have generally been keeping an eye on the future (PDF).
3) I support a mileage based road usage fee adjusted for vehicle weight. With current state and federal tax on gasoline I pay only about 1 cent per mile towards road maintenance... I'd have no problem paying that if I drove an EV and the finances are hardly affected at all. Keep the taxes on fossil fuels to pay for the costs their burning directly contributes to, like national defense, environmental protection and health care.
4) I originally did the lease comparison for an Nissan LEAF, but it works the same for a Volt if you just bump the base price up. With a Volt I'd still basically uses all-electric range. *shrug* I'd prefer a LEAF over the Volt, though, for various reasons.
=Smidge=
*sigh*
No. No it does not. You must be mistaking modern electric drivetrain batteries with nickle based chemistries like earlier hybrids used.
And even then the claim is highly dubious.
I suppose you also think the batteries end up in landfills?
=Smidge=
Okay, 200 amps at 240V is 48kW. You'd have to hit peak usage every day of the month to reach 1400kWh. My home is all electric except for the heating (oil) which is fine since it probably gets a lot colder here than it does in Cali... if I use 200kWh in a month that's a lot.
If you're hitting Tier 3 rates in a private home maybe you need to reevaluate your lifestyle for all sorts of reasons.
=Smidge=
I show the math and you immediately fall back on the tax thing. Makes you look like a little bitch, y'know.
So the ability to deduct your tax liability is a subsidy? Decreasing taxes is a subsidy, is it? Tax cuts are actually a form of spending? Are you sure you want to go that route? (Or perhaps you don't know the difference between a deduction and a rebate?)
Fine. The petroleum industry gets tens of billions of dollars a year ($70+ billion to be more exact) in "subsidies" in the form of both tax breaks and direct spending. Let's end those, too. Now that gasoline is upwards of $10/gallon I'd be saving $240/mo and it's an even better deal for me. Thanks, wingnut!
=Smidge=
The highest rate I could find in Redding, CA is 32c/kWh, and that's at Tier 3 usages (>1400kWh per month). I don't know what the hell you're doing if your home us using >1400kWh per month... Probably not charging an electric car...
Maybe you're citing some kind of commercial/industrial peak rate?
=Smidge=
It could be charging the battery at the same time, putting a larger portion of the fuel's energy into something useful and STILL be generating the required heat. It does not do this AFAIK, however, so the engine just idles uselessly to make heat.
Just because the computer determines it's better to run the engine than heat the battery electrically, doesn't mean there aren't further optimizations to be made.
=Smidge=
No, my math is correct. Don't forget that if you lease, the dealer claims the $7,500 federal tax incentive (perhaps soon to be $10,000?) so that comes right off the top of the car's price. At that point you are no longer comparing $40K to $20K, you're comparing $32K to $20K. This makes ALL the difference.
So... assuming MSRP minus incentive for a gross capitalized cost of approx. $32,000. 36 month lease, 45% residual. Bullshit fees and tax paid up front, plus $4,000 down (total money down: ~$8,100). Monthly payment is $370/mo.
Based on the last 12 months of driving (9557.2 mi) and assuming $4/gallon + 28.88 MPG average over the past 12 months (yes, I keep detailed records), I would be saving about $110/mo. Based on mileage and electricity costs, I would be paying about $35/mo in electricity. Net savings of $75/mo which makes leasing this car comparable to $295/mo. Working backwards, with the same terms and down payment, that's equivalent to a $22,500 vehicle.
So I rounded off from memory instead of re-opening my spreadsheet and was off by $2,500. Sue me. *shrug*
You'll probably complain about the large money down sum. Fine, but it cuts both ways... How much I put down is irrelevant to the relative cost. Example: At $1,000 down the payments become $460 and $385 respectively - still a $75 difference.
I used a 0.00224 money factor and a 15,000 mile/yr lease if you want to try it at home. I'll be happy to compare notes.
=Smidge=
The fact that the engine can drive the wheels directly at all is another minor gripe many have with the Volt, since that was revealed after GM's representatives swore up and down that it never happens. But that's another discussion since the circumstances under which this happens are fairly rare for most people.
99% of the time, the Volt runs as a serial hybrid.
Just to be clear, I've nothing against the Volt as a machine nor anything against GM's engineers. It's their corporate douchebags that are screwing everything up.
=Smidge=
You are absolutely correct that running the electric heater decreases drivable range. EV manufacturers and owners have employed various tactics to deal with this: Preheating the car while it's still plugged in is the primary one, which significantly decreases the load on the heating system. The Nissan LEAF comes with a heated steering wheel and heated seats to keep the driver and passenger(s) warm without heating the entire cabin. Some owners have tried 12V electric blankets, adding homebrew or aftermarket heating systems, or most often just dressing warmly for the trip.
But the real issue is not cabin heating, it's keeping the battery warm. A cold battery means lethargic chemistry, which means reduced power and (temporarily) lost capacity. This is the true nature of EVs in extreme climates.
Fun fact: If the Volt's computer deems it the most efficient method, the gas engine will run just to generate heat. What a waste IMHO...
=Smidge=
The infamous Section 179 "Hummer Deduction" was essentially a loophole in the tax code that allowed businesses to write off the full price of SUVs under an incentive plan intended for commercial grade trucks and other equipment.
Basically if you owned a business you could buy luxury SUVs pretty much for free.
They fixed that a few years ago but there's still some tax incentive to buy unnecessarily heavy vehicles for personal transport.
=Smidge=
The mere fact it has a gas engine makes it a hybrid.
It's a serial hybrid, like a diesel-electric locomotive, rather than a parallel hybrid like the Prius and every other hybrid passenger vehicle on the road, but a hybrid nonetheless. it will never not need gasoline to operate properly: Even if you never exceed the all-electric range, it will burn gasoline.
GM's misguided attempt to redefine things is part of what is giving them problems. The early adopter, electric-vehicle-wanting crowd they are trying to sell to is, in my experience, overall technically savvy when it comes to this sort of thing and they do not appreciate the games GM is playing.
Also, there is a special case where the gas engine is mechanically coupled to the wheels.
=Smidge=
The Volt costs $0.90 less per mile to run on electric mode than the Prius. When the gasoline engine kicks in, the Volt costs $0.80 *more* per mile.
How did you get those numbers? Even at $5/gal gas, fuel costs would only be around $0.15 per mile. Where are these other expenses coming from?
=Smidge=
Where do you live?
We can blame this on GM corporate for having their heads up their asses. If what you say is true and your local dealer has such a waiting list with no on-lot inventory, then he needs to call in a complaint. Just a few weeks ago there were stories of dealers turning down deliveries because they weren't selling.
=Smidge=
Guess that explains why California is the most popular market for all-electric vehicles. Oh wait, no it doesn't...
To be on cost-per-mile par with $4.50/gal gasoline electricity would have to cost over $0.50 per kWh. (Comparing 30MPG to 3.5mi/kWh economies). Where in California are people paying north of $0.50 per kWh?
Once you've answered that we can discuss TOU metering schemes that actually make electricity for charging EVs cheaper than the nominal daytime rate.
=Smidge=
It's hard to tell what demand is like for the LEAF since there is still a registration list to get one, and the market has only recently been expanded to include the entire US - it was limited to select states for the first year of availability. The only place you're likely to find one on a dealer's lot without a deposit on it is in the initial rollout states, and it might be an orphan (a car someone reserved online but did not follow through with purchasing).
We probably won't know until 2013 or 2014 when the Tennessee plant opens up and starts production. Right now every LEAF is built in Japan and distributed to markets around the world.
=Smidge=
The Volt isn't an electric car, and that's part of the problem. It's a serial hybrid. GM's marketing has been extremely disingenuous with their claims and how they manipulate figures.
As for the EV1 lovers, many of them are doubly miffed at GM for still not taking the electric car market seriously and producing an expensive hybrid instead. Enthusiasts have long memories.
While Volts sit in dealer's lots gathering dust, Nissan can't produce their LEAFs fast enough. There is demand for a pure electric vehicle.
=Smidge=
I'm never going to save $15k - $20k in gas over the life of the car, so buying a comparable car that runs on gasoline is probably a better value.
Lately I've been finding this argument a little disingenuous. For example, if I were to lease a $38K all-electric vehicle my payments would be roughly $360/mo. At $4/gal the money I'd save on gasoline would make my monthly payments comparable to leasing a vehicle worth $20K under identical terms*. In terms of affordability, these who vehicles would almost the same for the duration of the lease. And yes, I figured the cost of electricity as well as gasoline.
The cost difference manifests only in the residual cost, but I need not pay that if I decide not to buy out.
=Smidge=
*Your mileage may vary, of course.
A basic commodity (usually said of foodstuffs), yes. Hard to pass up a good pun, though!
=Smidge=
Assuming your budget stretches to such luxuries, sure. I know many people for whom $5.80 a week will either have to come out of their budget for staples.
Maybe they should try paperclips, which are reusable. :)
=Smidge=
but they still have to pay the gas cause they got no choice. electric cars is not here to invade the market for tomorrow
Oddly enough, just yesterday Nissan announced that their all-electric LEAF is now available nationwide in the USA. Ford's all-electric version of the Focus is supposed to hit dealer showrooms this spring. The GM/Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid has been available for quite some time now, and the new plugin-in Prius has just started shipping to the US.
As for the cost? It's not terribly likely you'll see a major hike in electricity prices because of them. Utilities are actually offering incentives for EV owners, in the form of special rate structures and metering options (dedicated meter for EV chraging, TOU metering, etc). Incentives for installing solar panels is also at an all-time high, and many of those that buy both EVs and solar panels end up eliminating their gasoline expenses and actually reducing their electricity expenses.
=Smidge=
How would you, as a private individual, know if a particular batch was "bad" before the doctor knew? Presumably you'd learn about the contamination from a news outlet, and the news outlet would learn about it from a health organization that issued a broad alert to doctors and distributors for recall. That organization would have been most likely informed by the manufacturer after testing revealed problems.
So even if you somehow knew a batch was bad, your doctor should already know. Even if he didn't know, refusing treatment is an extreme way to go about it: explain to the doctor that you heard about a bad batch floating around and to look into it, and come back when he's sure he's not dipping into tainted supplies.
Sorry about "your mom's friend" but if that story is true are you absolutely sure it was from the vaccine itself and not a botched injection procedure or other complication? Assuming the condition was related to the injection at all, that is. What odds do you like better? 1 in 1,000,000 that you'll be paralyzed with a 80% chance of recovery within a year, or say 1 in 1,000 to as high as 1 in 25 chance you'll die?
=Smidge=
I think the implications are a little more insidious. E-begging is one thing and there's nothing ethically wrong with that IMHO - at least people know you're just asking for cash to spend on yourself. But consider another possible scenario:
Step 1: Post fundraising goal of $x for some really good sounding (but fake) cause/project. ("My 2-year-old daughter has leukemia and I've been out of work for six months...")
Step 2: Wait for donations to accumulate
Step 3: If donations fail to reach tipping point, put your own money ($y) in until it does - causing third party donors to be charged and funds released.
Step 4: Vanish with ($x - $y) profit.
Get something going on Facebook and you'll have thousands of people chipping in $5 or whatever no questions asked. Granted this is possible for Kickstarter as well (would need a different cover story), but with having each donation drive screened you hopefully have some due diligence going on to verify their legitimacy. Maybe.
=Smidge=
I think you're on the right track here... maybe just need a little more energy...
=Smidge=
If you've actually seen any of the TV ads for the Volt, they basically involve the driver/owner being harassed by confused onlookers arguing over whether it's gas or electric, with the owner sheepishly trying to explain that it's both.
They're terrible ads that leave the viewer confused. I'm sure it's not the only problem but that ain't helping.
=Smidge=
Because he already has it, and it is paid off. The point was that it makes more sense to keep an existing vehicle than to get a new one.
Well no shit. Who's been saying otherwise?
If, on the other hand, you're getting a new vehicle anyway...
=Smidge=