But this is nothing like stealing a car to get to a gold mine. It's stealing the tools, unlawfully entering someone else's mine and taking gold from it.
Sounds like you're illegally mining gold to me, as every part of the activity you are undertaking is done contrary to the law.
Generating bitcoins on a machine you have compromised with a trojan is an illegal activity. Every cycle used to hash, every byte sent over the network without permission is illegal.
The fact that there is not a specific crime "illegally generating a bitcoin" is irrelevant and you know it.
Well, except that they didn't. Not only did these two inciters not show up, but nobody else did either except for the police. Because it was meant as a joke, arguably in poor taste.
Pretty sure I read in the paper here in London that at least one was apprehended at the meeting point/time that he had proposed. Maybe I was wrong on that count.
And no, I don't believe this was meant as a joke, poor taste or otherwise. Evidently neither does anyone involved in the justice system. And the accused themselves plead guilty which tells me they knew what they were doing.
4 years may be a bit harsh. Personally I think the sentencing guidelines in most of the western world are insane, where growing weed can get you more time than rape or murder. But these guys deserve a little taste of the inside for inciting further violence in a time when the country was already suffering from riots.
"Is that forbidden to state the opinion that violent action is the only way to bring change in a corrupt system ? Not that I defend this opinion, but the fact that is is censored disturbs me deeply."
That's not what happened though, is it?
They posted (in paraphrase) "Let's meet behind McDonalds at 2pm and go rioting", then they turned up behind McDonalds at 2pm.
This was not political speech, it was incitement and intent.
Actually it's pretty clear you have no idea what you are talking about, and have not been keeping up with current events, at all.
Drugs and the silk road are a big thing with bitcoins. Most of the rest of what can be bought with them is various forms of hosting. There are very, very few real-world goods that they are useful for.
Eclipse MC generates bitcoins, not dollars, from a quick reading of that site. I see nothing there about directly earning non BTC currencies.
You are woefully misinformed about the exchange and other site stuff. Let's see -
And as for features, well one of the features I actually like about htings like credit cards is chargeback, as a consumer, so biitcoin loses out as a method of exchange on that. And another thing is the deflationary nature of it - I fundamentally disagree that this is a good thing.
So I suggest that you are the one that's uninformed and trying to whitewash. Accuse me of being a bitcoin hater all you like, but uninformed I am not.
I'm not talking about counterfeits, the OP did but was quickly disabused of the notion.
I'm talking about *genuine* bitcoin generated by illegal activity. I'm well aware that there will be no difference between what comes from these miners and that coming from others.
No, I think mining them with a trojan is a scam, and that if you think of them/use them as a scam then setting up accounts and waiting a few days for the cash to trickle through is not a big deal, because you're getting them ''free".
For the honest user, I'm suggesting that the delays and fees involved in the process of conversion to actual cash are non-trivial. Not exactly a hardship either, but non-trivial.
However I'm still surprised that you don't think the activity of the trojan is illegal - using someone else's machine without their permission. It's basically malware at that point, regardless of it's intent, isn't it?
I'm well aware that bitcoin mining itself, on machines that you own/have permission to use, is perfectly legal.
Not necessarily, but the gold mining activity was, which is all I've been saying.
And in some cases a mined asset that was mined illegally with slave labour might have an attached and uncertain legal status - see blood diamonds, for example.
"Bitcoin doesnt have a problem except for the fact that some people are doing something illegal (owning/operating a botnet) and their work on said botnet is related to Bitcoins."
And the Silk Road And the various exchange-related losses, scandals and frauds. And the lack of various features of a decent monetary system And the lack of anything to do with BTC that's not Silk Road related or buying a BTC badge. And a load of other things.
"There was a news article about $500,000 that was spent on heroin from Guatemala. This certainly calls into question the practicality of the us dollar"
Who said anything about practicality? I said reputation.
if there were a botnet out there designed to crack into a secret, encrypted NSA document for unscrupulous purposes, would you be here arguing "boy the NSA sure is in the tank, they are out there illegally botnetting peoples computers all criminal like and shit"?
Yeah, neither of your analogies actually map to the situation very well.
Generation of bitcoins via illegal means brings the bitcoin ecosystem into further disrepute. Not a lot of people know about it, of those that do an awful lot see it associated with criminal behaviour and libertarian/objectivist/separatist crazies with a hard-on for tax avoidance and poor grasp on reality.
"Why would there be anything wrong with doing something the system was designed to support?"
The system was designed to support the use of other folks equipment and electricity without their knowledge or permission? Really? I don't exactly agree with much about bitcoin, but I wouldn't go that far.
there is absolutely nothing wrong with the act of mining bitcoins through CPU/GPU work, plain and simple, despite the TFA making it sound like it's akin to cracking online banking accounts just because there is money involved. It is not doing anything any one individual isn't supposed to be able to do.
I'm no longer sure what you think you were replying to, because I haven't seen anyone suggest that the act of mining on ones own equipment is criminal or wrong (beyond flaws in the system), we're talking about the use of a mining trojan and botnets here.
Wait, so you're saying that if I break into your house and start using your furniture to make burtnips (whatever they may be), I'm not illegally making burtnips?
The courts would call it a variety of offenses, most likely breaking and entering, destruction of property, maybe theft if I removed my burtnips from the property, but I would most certainly have been illegally making burtnips.
So again, I disagree and your semantic argument is just that, semantic.
Oh I dunno, maybe if the most of the people who are actually enthusiasts (see bitcoin forums for instance) used it to buy and sell something other than Euro or USD that would be a start.
At the moment actual purchases are rare so far as I can tell, most of the adherents seem to be hoarding in anticipation of a perpetually rising value. There is a large transaction volume daily, but it's the exchanges that drive it.
"There is no such thing as illegal generation of bitcoins. Sure, the illegal access of systems is connected to the generation of bitcoins, but that connection has nothing to do with legality."
So illegally using someones machine to generate bitcoins is not illegal generation of bitcoins?
I disagree, and those are some mighty fine semantic distinctions you're selling there.
I don't really see that there's any connection between the amount of work put in and the value.
It works the other way around in bitcoin - the more valuable it is, the more people will get into mining as there is a profit to be had, until such time as it becomes hard enough to mine that the profit goes out of it again. But the effort involved isn't really a value driver as far as I can see, as there is no relation between the effort put in and the supply of coin, which is invariant. Similarly there is no continuing value to the electricity and cycles put in to generate the coin, it is gone and what's left is a chunk of information. If there was residual value then coins generated now that the generation difficulty is high would necessarily have a higher value than earlier coins, which is not the case.
They are potentially very deflationary though, as if it takes off and gets wildly popular then the value of the currency has to rise massively, there is no way to increase the supply in tune with the economy. This makes them a hoarding item, a speculative asset, rather that a currency, IMHO.
"Illegal generation of bitcoins? Not as far as the bitcoin system is concerned."
"The unauthorized use of computer systems is a problem"
How are these things not connected in your mind? Some of the currency is being generated illegally. No, the bitcoin system doesn't know or care. This is a further strike against it.
Not from what I've been reading. The money has to go via various other services and exchanges just to get to your bank account, with a variety of fees imposed along the way, and delays of up to several days.
Easy enough if the bitcoins were 'free' I suppose, but not so much for anyone thinking of them as anything other than a scam.
They generate at a fixed rate up to the defined total number of coins.
People run bitcoin mining operations to generate these coins. The thing I find amusing is that of course you don't get more coins the more computing power is dedicated to it, you get the same number. So someone that comes online with a massive botnet actually reduces the amount everyone else can claim.
Slashdot Mirror
But this is nothing like stealing a car to get to a gold mine. It's stealing the tools, unlawfully entering someone else's mine and taking gold from it.
Sounds like you're illegally mining gold to me, as every part of the activity you are undertaking is done contrary to the law.
But you are.
Generating bitcoins on a machine you have compromised with a trojan is an illegal activity. Every cycle used to hash, every byte sent over the network without permission is illegal.
The fact that there is not a specific crime "illegally generating a bitcoin" is irrelevant and you know it.
Pretty sure I read in the paper here in London that at least one was apprehended at the meeting point/time that he had proposed. Maybe I was wrong on that count.
And no, I don't believe this was meant as a joke, poor taste or otherwise. Evidently neither does anyone involved in the justice system. And the accused themselves plead guilty which tells me they knew what they were doing.
4 years may be a bit harsh. Personally I think the sentencing guidelines in most of the western world are insane, where growing weed can get you more time than rape or murder. But these guys deserve a little taste of the inside for inciting further violence in a time when the country was already suffering from riots.
And no, none of this was political.
"Is that forbidden to state the opinion that violent action is the only way to bring change in a corrupt system ? Not that I defend this opinion, but the fact that is is censored disturbs me deeply."
That's not what happened though, is it?
They posted (in paraphrase) "Let's meet behind McDonalds at 2pm and go rioting", then they turned up behind McDonalds at 2pm.
This was not political speech, it was incitement and intent.
Yes NitroWolf, give us the real inside scoop, because so far your posts have been content-free bullshit!
Paypal isn't a currency, it's a payment mechanism.
FAIL
Actually it's pretty clear you have no idea what you are talking about, and have not been keeping up with current events, at all.
Drugs and the silk road are a big thing with bitcoins. Most of the rest of what can be bought with them is various forms of hosting. There are very, very few real-world goods that they are useful for.
Eclipse MC generates bitcoins, not dollars, from a quick reading of that site. I see nothing there about directly earning non BTC currencies.
You are woefully misinformed about the exchange and other site stuff. Let's see -
Mt Gox. hack
Mybitcoin hack/fraud (was that resolved?)
Tradehill/Dwolla chargeback fraud
bitomat.pl disappeared overnight.
And as for features, well one of the features I actually like about htings like credit cards is chargeback, as a consumer, so biitcoin loses out as a method of exchange on that. And another thing is the deflationary nature of it - I fundamentally disagree that this is a good thing.
So I suggest that you are the one that's uninformed and trying to whitewash. Accuse me of being a bitcoin hater all you like, but uninformed I am not.
Yes, it is illegally mailing your grandmother, what's not to get?
I'm not talking about counterfeits, the OP did but was quickly disabused of the notion.
I'm talking about *genuine* bitcoin generated by illegal activity. I'm well aware that there will be no difference between what comes from these miners and that coming from others.
No, I think mining them with a trojan is a scam, and that if you think of them/use them as a scam then setting up accounts and waiting a few days for the cash to trickle through is not a big deal, because you're getting them ''free".
For the honest user, I'm suggesting that the delays and fees involved in the process of conversion to actual cash are non-trivial. Not exactly a hardship either, but non-trivial.
I was indeed referring to perception.
However I'm still surprised that you don't think the activity of the trojan is illegal - using someone else's machine without their permission. It's basically malware at that point, regardless of it's intent, isn't it?
I'm well aware that bitcoin mining itself, on machines that you own/have permission to use, is perfectly legal.
Not necessarily, but the gold mining activity was, which is all I've been saying.
And in some cases a mined asset that was mined illegally with slave labour might have an attached and uncertain legal status - see blood diamonds, for example.
"Bitcoin doesnt have a problem except for the fact that some people are doing something illegal (owning/operating a botnet) and their work on said botnet is related to Bitcoins."
And the Silk Road
And the various exchange-related losses, scandals and frauds.
And the lack of various features of a decent monetary system
And the lack of anything to do with BTC that's not Silk Road related or buying a BTC badge.
And a load of other things.
"There was a news article about $500,000 that was spent on heroin from Guatemala. This certainly calls into question the practicality of the us dollar"
Who said anything about practicality? I said reputation.
if there were a botnet out there designed to crack into a secret, encrypted NSA document for unscrupulous purposes, would you be here arguing "boy the NSA sure is in the tank, they are out there illegally botnetting peoples computers all criminal like and shit"?
Yeah, neither of your analogies actually map to the situation very well.
Generation of bitcoins via illegal means brings the bitcoin ecosystem into further disrepute. Not a lot of people know about it, of those that do an awful lot see it associated with criminal behaviour and libertarian/objectivist/separatist crazies with a hard-on for tax avoidance and poor grasp on reality.
This trojan adds to that picture.
"Why would there be anything wrong with doing something the system was designed to support?"
The system was designed to support the use of other folks equipment and electricity without their knowledge or permission?
Really?
I don't exactly agree with much about bitcoin, but I wouldn't go that far.
there is absolutely nothing wrong with the act of mining bitcoins through CPU/GPU work, plain and simple, despite the TFA making it sound like it's akin to cracking online banking accounts just because there is money involved. It is not doing anything any one individual isn't supposed to be able to do.
I'm no longer sure what you think you were replying to, because I haven't seen anyone suggest that the act of mining on ones own equipment is criminal or wrong (beyond flaws in the system), we're talking about the use of a mining trojan and botnets here.
Wait, so you're saying that if I break into your house and start using your furniture to make burtnips (whatever they may be), I'm not illegally making burtnips?
The courts would call it a variety of offenses, most likely breaking and entering, destruction of property, maybe theft if I removed my burtnips from the property, but I would most certainly have been illegally making burtnips.
So again, I disagree and your semantic argument is just that, semantic.
Oh I dunno, maybe if the most of the people who are actually enthusiasts (see bitcoin forums for instance) used it to buy and sell something other than Euro or USD that would be a start.
At the moment actual purchases are rare so far as I can tell, most of the adherents seem to be hoarding in anticipation of a perpetually rising value. There is a large transaction volume daily, but it's the exchanges that drive it.
"There is no such thing as illegal generation of bitcoins. Sure, the illegal access of systems is connected to the generation of bitcoins, but that connection has nothing to do with legality."
So illegally using someones machine to generate bitcoins is not illegal generation of bitcoins?
I disagree, and those are some mighty fine semantic distinctions you're selling there.
I don't really see that there's any connection between the amount of work put in and the value.
It works the other way around in bitcoin - the more valuable it is, the more people will get into mining as there is a profit to be had, until such time as it becomes hard enough to mine that the profit goes out of it again.
But the effort involved isn't really a value driver as far as I can see, as there is no relation between the effort put in and the supply of coin, which is invariant. Similarly there is no continuing value to the electricity and cycles put in to generate the coin, it is gone and what's left is a chunk of information. If there was residual value then coins generated now that the generation difficulty is high would necessarily have a higher value than earlier coins, which is not the case.
They are potentially very deflationary though, as if it takes off and gets wildly popular then the value of the currency has to rise massively, there is no way to increase the supply in tune with the economy. This makes them a hoarding item, a speculative asset, rather that a currency, IMHO.
While the analogy doesn't really hold completely, I don't really disagree.
What's your point here?
"Illegal generation of bitcoins? Not as far as the bitcoin system is concerned."
"The unauthorized use of computer systems is a problem"
How are these things not connected in your mind?
Some of the currency is being generated illegally. No, the bitcoin system doesn't know or care. This is a further strike against it.
Why would someone running a botnet bother using a mining pool?
Surely they're their own pool at that point?
I don't think the control of the network thing is that much of a concern is it?
To me the worse thing here is that bitcoin is being generated illegally, bringing the bitcoin system even further into disrepute that it already is.
Trivial?
Not from what I've been reading. The money has to go via various other services and exchanges just to get to your bank account, with a variety of fees imposed along the way, and delays of up to several days.
Easy enough if the bitcoins were 'free' I suppose, but not so much for anyone thinking of them as anything other than a scam.
They generate at a fixed rate up to the defined total number of coins.
People run bitcoin mining operations to generate these coins. The thing I find amusing is that of course you don't get more coins the more computing power is dedicated to it, you get the same number. So someone that comes online with a massive botnet actually reduces the amount everyone else can claim.
Meh, never heard of this Erdos number, but I''m proud of my own Bacon Number of 3 :)