Looks like I missed most of this discussion - but here goes anyway:
1) Confusion between "hackers" and "crackers". Ya know, this really reminds me of Edwin Newman-esqe statements about "proper" language which ignore common usage. Wake up, folks. This is no different from any other case where words understood by a small community of people to have a very specific meaning (for example, "evolution", "acceleration", etc) pass into common usage - the meaning gets distorted. If a large population of people use a word a certain way, and they all understand what they intend it to mean, then that (distorted) meaning _is_ a legitimate definition of the word by any sane standard. Or, to put it another way; this hacker vs cracker argument has been going on for years. If most people's minds haven't been changed by now, it just ain't gonna happen.
2) "Hackers don't intend any mischief when they break in, they just wanna look around." Really? How do I know what the intentions are of a hacker who breaks in? And even if I do establish that the intentions were benign (realistically, I'll never know for sure), real damage has still occurred; work time has been wasted chasing the threat (reduces profit, makes company less healthy; jeopardizes stockholders, creditors, and employees), the hacker may have seen things which are none of his business (jeopardizes client confidentiality agreements) - not to mention that the hacker may have accidentally deleted files, etc, without realizing it. There simply is _no_ such thing as a "harmless" intrusion.
3) "Hackers share". Hackers violate copyright laws and licensing agreements. This is strong language, but when you copy licensed software and give it to someone else, or accept such software, you are depriving the software company of its rightful revenue. In other words, you are committing _theft_. Pure and simple.
I enjoy my work, but I run my company in order to put food on my table and pay my rent. You hack into my site, you _will_ be prosecuted. No exceptions.
Re:Jobs for those still stuck in the Hellmouth
on
Feature:Geek Jobs
·
· Score: 2
[When I started to write this, I did not intend for it to be this long - apologies in advance, and I'll try to be less verbose in the future]
First, a little about myself - education in social sciences, made a career shift several years ago to computer science/networking/programming, worked as a network engineer with personnel management and salary administration duties (in other words, I was the team leader), later, started my own (small) networking company (and no, we're not hiring right now). So, I've at least seen things from a lot of different perspectives - technical, hiring, personnel, salary, and even CEO.
Now, my comments about your situation, then some more general comments:
First, it sounds as if you might be considering doing without a college degree. If this is the case, I _strongly_ encourage you to reconsider. While some of the most technically talented people I know don't have degrees (and some do), I can also tell you that skipping college will be something you'll have to spend the rest of your life explaining every time you are trying to find a new job. Not to mention the many other reasons(non-educational) for higher education (social, etc).
If you are going to college, consider summer internships. If those are impractical, find a local business that needs some technical help and offer to contribute your talents for free or minimum wage in return for the experience and good recommendations. Small, non-technical companies (e.g., self-employed doctors, CPAs, etc) are probably your best bet here.
Why do I say this? Well, you hit the nail right on the head - your current situation is that you _don't_ have a lot of experience, meaning specific, _documentable_ technical skills (i.e., references and certifications), plus, equally important, you don't have much "real-world" experience (workplace culture). So, you are trying to build up these areas. To put it another way...
Put yourself in the position of someone who is considering hiring you. If you were sitting across from my desk, I would have little more than a high school transcript and a few gut impressions to go on. Meanwhile, here are some of the questions I'd be asking myself:
1) Does this person understand, and can s/he handle, the responsibilities of functioning in a workplace?
2) Do I like this person? (Surveys of employers and managers show that this is a lot more important in an interview than most people realize; after all, if I hire you, I will be stuck with you in my face for at least 8 hours per day).
3) Does this person have creativity? Imaginiation? Intelligence? Can he or she come up with new answers to some of the challenges s/he will encouter?
4) Does s/he have adequate social skills? Can I send him or her to a client site without worrying that he or she will do something unprofessional that will make me look foolish?
(I am getting tired of constantly typing "he or she" - so, from now on, I will just use "she", since "he" is overused. No offense to the dudes; and in case anyone cares, I am part of the half of the human race that pees standing up:) ).
5) Maturity - this person, being on the low end of the totem pole, will almost certainly have a lot of "grunt work"; will she get upset or discouraged?
To sum it up, I would look for someone, in your situation, who is not necessarily highly skilled technically (very few high school students are), but who:
* has made the most of every opportunity they _have_ had
* has displayed creativity and intelligence, both in their school work and in extracurricular activities
* who is likeable
* who can communicate well, both orally and in writing
* who is curious and has interests other than technical ones
See why I mentioned internships or giving away some work at first? From a potential employer's perspective, having _some_ prior experience - _anything_ - will mean that you have demonstrated this before in a workplace setting, even if all you've demonstrated is that you're a pleasant, intelligent person who shows up on time (you'd be surprised how many young people don't!).
Small companies will be fine for internships and such, but you may have a problem getting your first "real" job at one. Why? Well, with your lack of experience and skills (no offense, but that is where you're at), any employer is going to have to train you at first, and wait a while before getting real results back. As a small business owner, I can tell you that small businesses usually can't afford to do that; they usually need someone who can be productive immediately. Larger companies will almost certainly have more opportunities.
Now, with all that said, some dos and don'ts...
DO:
* be ready to talk about yourself, your hobbies, etc.
* try to develop a track record of seeking and successfully handling responsibility and interacting with different types of people. This does not have to be technical; organizing and managing events for your church, some charity, a school club, whatever, would be fine for this.
* show that you have initiative, that you are a "self-starter". Be ready to give examples where you have, on your own, extended your technical knowledge or experience. Show that you are the kind of person who digs into a problem, rather than just doing the bare minimum necessary to get by.
* have someone with a lot of work experience (preferably someone with experience interviewing and hiring people) look over your resume and offer constructive criticism. I can't tell you how many times I've seen resumes that had significant grammatical or spelling errors, were poorly organized, or were indecipherable for different reasons. (One humorous example - the resume of a job applicant I saw a few years ago was full of statements like "I installed Allegro on Orange and Ringo". Turned out that Allegro was a purely internal application at a previous workplace, and Orange and Ringo were the names of two of their servers. How was I supposed to know that? Needless to say, that applicant was not hired. When writing, _consider_ _your_ _audience_).
DO NOT:
* appear cocky, arrogant, etc. This is a little hard to do - a job interview seems to almost require it at times. The keys seem to me to be 1) while expressing pride in your own accomplishments, be ready to respect and acknowledge those of others, and 2) show a little modesty. And whatever you do, DON'T come across as a Self-Important Legend-In-Her Own-Mind Thinks-She-Knows-Everything Wannabe Computer Deity. Such an attitude will only demonstrate that you a) have an unrealistic assessment of your own abilities, b) probably cannot communicate well with non-technical people, and c) will probably be unpleasant to work with.
* get upset, angry, or contemptuous if the recruiter or your potential boss knows less technically that you. Being an expert is not her job; knowing enough to be able to recognize talent and manage it effectively is her job.
Which actually leads me to the next and last part of my post - your reward for bearing with me this far:)
THE SECRET WEAPON WHICH WILL ALMOST GUARANTEE YOU JOB OFFERS
Interested? Here it is...
Realize, understand, and always keep in mind that the purpose of any business is to make money.
That's it. Pretty simple, huh? But, you would be amazed at how many entry-level people don't seem to understand this.
If you are not doing it already, start reading the Wall Street Journal, watching CNBC, etc. Learn what corporations, proprietorships, and partnerships are. Develop at least a passing acquaintance with the principles of bookkeeping. Understand what depreciation is. Know what corporate directors, corporate officers, managers, and supervisors do. And so on.
Additionally, find out (before the interview, if possible) who your potential employer's major competitors are. Is their stock publicly traded? If so, try to get a copy of their annual report before you interview (one way to do this is to call the main office and ask for the Investor Relations Division, and tell them you are considering purchasing stock and you'd like a copy of the annual report).
If you ask questions like "What are your responsibilities in achieving the financial goals of this company, and what will my place be in helping you achieve those goals?" - and, if you have done your homework and are prepared to discuss these issues intelligently, I _promise_ you that even if you are not offered a job immediately, your resume _will_ be placed in a special "hot people" file, you _will_ be asked to "stay in touch", you _will_ be called at some later time by someone at the company who say "we've got an job opening, I remember talking to you before and think you'd be a good match, would you like to come back in and talk to us again?"
If this sounds like a lot of financial stuff to learn, keep in mind, you're only in high school! No one expects you to be an expert. Just showing that you're interested in these issues and are thinking about them will be enough, believe me.
It goes without saying that techies who consider managers as "dweebs", "suits", or "beancounters" find their prospects for advancement _very_ limited. I personally know a couple of people in their late 30's who are still working entry level jobs, not because they love the work, but because they can't get past this attitude. And, I've seen a few others. Your boss's job will be to achieve a set of goals assigned by _her_ superiors, and to do it with a limited amount of money and time. And ultimately, that is the basis on which you will be evaluated.
Realize that, although your boss may like you and respect you immensely, her _professional_ duty is to consider your salary, your PC, your chair and desk, your phone line, the square footage of your office or cubicle, as money spent, and the work you produce as money returned. To remain employed, the revenue you produce must be greater than the money the company spends on you; or, you must at least show the promise of becoming profitable fairly soon. (Actually, there are exceptions to this, but anyway...) Any time you make a request or suggest an idea, be prepared to justify it in financial terms. I've seen more than a few programmers who simply _must_ have the hottest, latest PC on their desk, when a middle of the road PC would be perfectly adequate for them to do their work. Don't ask for a faster CPU or more memory unless you can justify it in terms of productivity (less of your time waiting for compiles, etc). You don't have to have hard dollar amounts, but the more you can put things in dollars and cents, the more attention your bosses will pay to you and the more they'll respect your opinion.
Well, as long as I've blabbed for this long, I'll throw in a few last thoughts on interviewing advice.
* Arrive early - give yourself 15 minutes to get stuck in traffic, use the bathroom once you get there, catch your breath if you had to climb stairs, etc.
* Dress appropriately - just because the company may be casual dress does not mean you can show up in blue jeans. For interviews, business attire is simply expected.
* If the person interviewing you has an unusual name, find out how to pronounce it _before_ talking to them (easy to do - just ask the receptionist).
* If you get sweaty palms, stick a few tissues or a handkerchief in your pocket, and give your hand a discreet wipe just before shaking hands.
* After arriving, but just before the interview, go to the bathroom and give yourself one last check in the mirror. Hair still ok? No lettuce stuck in your teeth from the sandwich you ate on the way over? Nothing hanging out of your nose? (I've seen that happen!)
* Bring a couple of copies of your resume with you. In other words, assume that the copy you sent in earlier will be buried somewhere on your interviewer's desk, and she'll be unable to find it.
* If you do not get the job, call back, ask to speak to the person interviewing you, and ask why (without being defensive or argumentative, of course). Explain that you are trying to get your first job, and you'd like some constructive criticism on what you did right and wrong.
Finally,
* Make sure you talk to the person who will be supervising you, and the people you will be working with. I learned this lesson the hard way; I interviewed at a company where I was told that my potential boss was busy "handling an emergency", and someone else would be conducting the interview. What I found out later was that my potential boss-to-be was such a bastard that no one who had interviewed with him had considered the job. Fortunately, I found out before it was too late. At another company, the bosses talked at great length about what a wonderful company it was, how everyone was so motivated and excited, etc. Talking with some lower level employees, I saw that this was not the case. Conclusion: management was horribly out of touch with the workers, or was trying to do a sales job on me.
* Trust your gut feelings - this is easier said than done, but if the job doesn't feel right, and you can afford to wait for something better, don't be afraid to turn it down. Remember what I said about your boss having to put up with you 8 hours per day? Same thing applies to you.
* Don't get discouraged if your first few interviews don't go well. Interviewing skills are like anything else - they take practice.
Slashdot Mirror
Looks like I missed most of this discussion - but here goes anyway:
1) Confusion between "hackers" and "crackers". Ya know, this really reminds me of Edwin Newman-esqe statements about "proper" language which ignore common usage. Wake up, folks. This is no different from any other case where words understood by a small community of people to have a very specific meaning (for example, "evolution", "acceleration", etc) pass into common usage - the meaning gets distorted. If a large population of people use a word a certain way, and they all understand what they intend it to mean, then that (distorted) meaning _is_ a legitimate definition of the word by any sane standard. Or, to put it another way; this hacker vs cracker argument has been going on for years. If most people's minds haven't been changed by now, it just ain't gonna happen.
2) "Hackers don't intend any mischief when they break in, they just wanna look around." Really? How do I know what the intentions are of a hacker who breaks in? And even if I do establish that the intentions were benign (realistically, I'll never know for sure), real damage has still occurred; work time has been wasted chasing the threat (reduces profit, makes company less healthy; jeopardizes stockholders, creditors, and employees), the hacker may have seen things which are none of his business (jeopardizes client confidentiality agreements) - not to mention that the hacker may have accidentally deleted files, etc, without realizing it. There simply is _no_ such thing as a "harmless" intrusion.
3) "Hackers share". Hackers violate copyright laws and licensing agreements. This is strong language, but when you copy licensed software and give it to someone else, or accept such software, you are depriving the software company of its rightful revenue. In other words, you are committing _theft_. Pure and simple.
I enjoy my work, but I run my company in order to put food on my table and pay my rent. You hack into my site, you _will_ be prosecuted. No exceptions.
[When I started to write this, I did not intend for it to be this long - apologies in advance, and I'll try to be less verbose in the future]
:) ).
:)
First, a little about myself - education in social sciences, made a career shift several years ago to computer science/networking/programming, worked as a network engineer with personnel management and salary administration duties (in other words, I was the team leader), later, started my own (small) networking company (and no, we're not hiring right now). So, I've at least seen things from a lot of different perspectives - technical, hiring, personnel, salary, and even CEO.
Now, my comments about your situation, then some more general comments:
First, it sounds as if you might be considering doing without a college degree. If this is the case, I _strongly_ encourage you to reconsider. While some of the most technically talented people I know don't have degrees (and some do), I can also tell you that skipping college will be something you'll have to spend the rest of your life explaining every time you are trying to find a new job. Not to mention the many other reasons(non-educational) for higher education (social, etc).
If you are going to college, consider summer internships. If those are impractical, find a local business that needs some technical help and offer to contribute your talents for free or minimum wage in return for the experience and good recommendations. Small, non-technical companies (e.g., self-employed doctors, CPAs, etc) are probably your best bet here.
Why do I say this? Well, you hit the nail right on the head - your current situation is that you _don't_ have a lot of experience, meaning specific, _documentable_ technical skills (i.e., references and certifications), plus, equally important, you don't have much "real-world" experience (workplace culture). So, you are trying to build up these areas. To put it another way...
Put yourself in the position of someone who is considering hiring you. If you were sitting across from my desk, I would have little more than a high school transcript and a few gut impressions to go on. Meanwhile, here are some of the questions I'd be asking myself:
1) Does this person understand, and can s/he handle, the responsibilities of functioning in a workplace?
2) Do I like this person? (Surveys of employers and managers show that this is a lot more important in an interview than most people realize; after all, if I hire you, I will be stuck with you in my face for at least 8 hours per day).
3) Does this person have creativity? Imaginiation? Intelligence? Can he or she come up with new answers to some of the challenges s/he will encouter?
4) Does s/he have adequate social skills? Can I send him or her to a client site without worrying that he or she will do something unprofessional that will make me look foolish?
(I am getting tired of constantly typing "he or she" - so, from now on, I will just use "she", since "he" is overused. No offense to the dudes; and in case anyone cares, I am part of the half of the human race that pees standing up
5) Maturity - this person, being on the low end of the totem pole, will almost certainly have a lot of "grunt work"; will she get upset or discouraged?
To sum it up, I would look for someone, in your situation, who is not necessarily highly skilled technically (very few high school students are), but who:
* has made the most of every opportunity they _have_ had
* has displayed creativity and intelligence, both in their school work and in extracurricular activities
* who is likeable
* who can communicate well, both orally and in writing
* who is curious and has interests other than technical ones
See why I mentioned internships or giving away some work at first? From a potential employer's perspective, having _some_ prior experience - _anything_ - will mean that you have demonstrated this before in a workplace setting, even if all you've demonstrated is that you're a pleasant, intelligent person who shows up on time (you'd be surprised how many young people don't!).
Small companies will be fine for internships and such, but you may have a problem getting your first "real" job at one. Why? Well, with your lack of experience and skills (no offense, but that is where you're at), any employer is going to have to train you at first, and wait a while before getting real results back. As a small business owner, I can tell you that small businesses usually can't afford to do that; they usually need someone who can be productive immediately. Larger companies will almost certainly have more opportunities.
Now, with all that said, some dos and don'ts...
DO:
* be ready to talk about yourself, your hobbies, etc.
* try to develop a track record of seeking and successfully handling responsibility and interacting with different types of people. This does not have to be technical; organizing and managing events for your church, some charity, a school club, whatever, would be fine for this.
* show that you have initiative, that you are a "self-starter". Be ready to give examples where you have, on your own, extended your technical knowledge or experience. Show that you are the kind of person who digs into a problem, rather than just doing the bare minimum necessary to get by.
* have someone with a lot of work experience (preferably someone with experience interviewing and hiring people) look over your resume and offer constructive criticism. I can't tell you how many times I've seen resumes that had significant grammatical or spelling errors, were poorly organized, or were indecipherable for different reasons. (One humorous example - the resume of a job applicant I saw a few years ago was full of statements like "I installed Allegro on Orange and Ringo". Turned out that Allegro was a purely internal application at a previous workplace, and Orange and Ringo were the names of two of their servers. How was I supposed to know that? Needless to say, that applicant was not hired. When writing, _consider_ _your_ _audience_).
DO NOT:
* appear cocky, arrogant, etc. This is a little hard to do - a job interview seems to almost require it at times. The keys seem to me to be 1) while expressing pride in your own accomplishments, be ready to respect and acknowledge those of others, and 2) show a little modesty. And whatever you do, DON'T come across as a Self-Important Legend-In-Her Own-Mind Thinks-She-Knows-Everything Wannabe Computer Deity. Such an attitude will only demonstrate that you a) have an unrealistic assessment of your own abilities, b) probably cannot communicate well with non-technical people, and c) will probably be unpleasant to work with.
* get upset, angry, or contemptuous if the recruiter or your potential boss knows less technically that you. Being an expert is not her job; knowing enough to be able to recognize talent and manage it effectively is her job.
Which actually leads me to the next and last part of my post - your reward for bearing with me this far
THE SECRET WEAPON WHICH WILL ALMOST GUARANTEE YOU JOB OFFERS
Interested? Here it is...
Realize, understand, and always keep in mind that the purpose of any business is to make money.
That's it. Pretty simple, huh? But, you would be amazed at how many entry-level people don't seem to understand this.
If you are not doing it already, start reading the Wall Street Journal, watching CNBC, etc. Learn what corporations, proprietorships, and partnerships are. Develop at least a passing acquaintance with the principles of bookkeeping. Understand what depreciation is. Know what corporate directors, corporate officers, managers, and supervisors do. And so on.
Additionally, find out (before the interview, if possible) who your potential employer's major competitors are. Is their stock publicly traded? If so, try to get a copy of their annual report before you interview (one way to do this is to call the main office and ask for the Investor Relations Division, and tell them you are
considering purchasing stock and you'd like a copy of the annual report).
If you ask questions like "What are your responsibilities in achieving the financial goals of this company, and what will my place be in helping you achieve those goals?" - and, if you have done your homework and are prepared to discuss these issues intelligently, I _promise_ you that even if you are not offered a job immediately, your resume _will_ be placed in a special "hot people" file, you _will_ be asked to "stay in touch", you _will_ be called at some later time by someone at the company who say "we've got an job opening, I remember talking to you before and think you'd be a good match, would you like to come back in and talk to us again?"
If this sounds like a lot of financial stuff to learn, keep in mind, you're only in high school! No one expects you to be an expert. Just showing that you're interested in these issues and are thinking about them will be enough, believe me.
It goes without saying that techies who consider managers as "dweebs", "suits", or "beancounters" find their prospects for advancement _very_ limited. I personally know a couple of people in their late 30's who are still working entry level jobs, not because they love the work, but because they can't get past this attitude. And, I've seen a few others. Your boss's job will be to achieve a set of goals assigned by _her_ superiors, and to do it with a limited amount of money and time. And ultimately, that is the basis on which you will be evaluated.
Realize that, although your boss may like you and respect you immensely, her _professional_ duty is to consider your salary, your PC, your chair and desk, your phone line, the square footage of your office or cubicle, as money spent, and the work you produce as money returned. To remain employed, the revenue you produce must be greater than the money the company spends on you; or, you must at least show the promise of becoming profitable fairly soon. (Actually, there are exceptions to this, but anyway...) Any time you make a request or suggest an idea, be prepared to justify it in financial terms. I've seen more than a few programmers who simply _must_ have the hottest, latest PC on their desk, when a middle of the road PC would be perfectly adequate for them to do their work. Don't ask for a faster CPU or more memory unless you can justify it in terms of productivity (less of your time waiting for compiles, etc). You don't have to have hard
dollar amounts, but the more you can put things in dollars and cents, the more attention your bosses will pay to you and the more they'll respect your opinion.
Well, as long as I've blabbed for this long, I'll throw in a few last thoughts on interviewing advice.
* Arrive early - give yourself 15 minutes to get stuck in traffic, use the bathroom once you get there, catch your breath if you had to climb stairs, etc.
* Dress appropriately - just because the company may be casual dress does not mean you can show up in blue jeans. For interviews, business attire is simply expected.
* If the person interviewing you has an unusual name, find out how to pronounce it _before_ talking to them (easy to do - just ask the receptionist).
* If you get sweaty palms, stick a few tissues or a handkerchief in your pocket, and give your hand a discreet wipe just before shaking hands.
* After arriving, but just before the interview, go to the bathroom and give yourself one last check in the mirror. Hair still ok? No lettuce stuck in your teeth from the sandwich you ate on the way over? Nothing hanging out of your nose? (I've seen that happen!)
* Bring a couple of copies of your resume with you. In other words, assume that the copy you sent in earlier will be buried somewhere on your interviewer's desk, and she'll be unable to find it.
* If you do not get the job, call back, ask to speak to the person interviewing you, and ask why (without being defensive or argumentative, of course). Explain that you are trying to get your first job, and you'd like some constructive criticism on what you did right and wrong.
Finally,
* Make sure you talk to the person who will be supervising you, and the people you will be working with. I learned this lesson the hard way; I interviewed at a company where I was told that my potential boss was busy "handling an emergency", and someone else would be conducting the interview. What I found out later was that my potential boss-to-be was such a bastard that no one who had interviewed with him had considered the job. Fortunately, I found out before it was too late. At another company, the bosses talked at great length about what a wonderful company it was, how everyone was so motivated and excited, etc. Talking with some lower level employees, I saw that this was not the case. Conclusion: management was horribly out of touch with the workers, or was trying to do a sales job on me.
* Trust your gut feelings - this is easier said than done, but if the job doesn't feel right, and you can afford to wait for something better, don't be afraid to turn it down. Remember what I said about your boss having to put up with you 8 hours per day? Same thing applies to you.
* Don't get discouraged if your first few interviews don't go well. Interviewing skills are like anything else - they take practice.
Well, that's it...Good luck!