So where are the news reports of *thousands* of plane crashes?
The phrase "mountains out of molehills" comes to mind.
I'm not defending the act of shining a laser at an airplane. That is, and should be, illegal. Those who do it can, and should be, incarcerated.
What I'm saying is that it is a MASSIVE overreaction to start requiring college professors to get a government issued permit to use a laser pointer in their classroom.
Now we're advocating waiting periods for a frickin' laser pointer?
Out of all of the various versions of the future that Hollywood has thrown out there over the years, I never would have guessed it. I never in a million years would have fucking guessed it. "Demolition Man" is the one that actually got it right.
Hell, I'm getting too old to fight it. Where do I pick up my sex goggles?
Since when were you granted a right to own a laser?
Since fucking when do I NEED to be "granted" a right to own anything?
The minute they were invented I automatically had the right to own one, as long as I had the means to acquire one from somebody, or acquire the parts to build one.
I may not have the right to aim one at your face, but I sure as hell have the right to possess one.
Rights are not something that must be granted. The government does not "grant" you rights to do anything. Government can only try to deny you rights, and even then, only through the threat of force.
I hear ya, but getting to that mythical perfect world seems like a useful thing to do. Throwing your hands up and saying "Nope, ain't gonna happen!"...not so much.
Actually, throwing your hands up and saying "Nope, ain't gonna happen" is a VERY useful thing. It's how one preserves his sanity rather than go crazy in the pursuit of an unattainable goal. It's a necessary part of transitioning from being an idealistic youth to being a functional member of a healthy society. Most of the good things that happen are brought about by the efforts and energy of people who stopped wasting their time and effort on the unattainable. (The trick is being able to separate what is truly unattainable from that with is merely extremely difficult.)
Anyway, I wasn't saying the solution was banning them. I'm losing my willingness to tolerate these sort of dumbasses, though. Once upon a time I would have been in the "show me actual harm" crowd, but right now I'm willing to put him away for a while merely for trying to cause harm. I guess that's where I get to on things like this. This guy isn't necessarily stupid. He's malicious. He might be stupid, too.
Now, see, here your'e trying to make the same point I've been trying to make all along. I have ZERO problem with this guy doing time for what he did. What I have a problem with is saying that NOBODY can own a laser now because there is a possible way that it could, maybe, be used for something malicious. Lasers are perfectly good and useful tools. So are hammers. Both can be used to do good, and both can be used to do harm. Legislate the behavior, not the object.
There's a resort I go to that sold these. It got to the point where going there was a nuisance for all the dumbasses shining them around. They were banned around a year ago. It'll be interesting to see how many are shining around next time I go back. In your theoretical world, banning things doesn't work. In the real world, it sometimes does make a difference. Not always, of course. Prohibition is a great example where it didn't.
I have no problem with a private resort banning anything. If you want to buy a piece of land to set up a resort where there are no blue shirts allowed, go for it. Hell, if it's on a nice lake, I might even join. But that doesn't mean that I want my government to ban blue shirts.
I have terrible news for you. Someone could walk into a room where you are on any particular day and kill you with a constitutionally protected firearm.
Even worse news. A convicted felon who has been stripped of that constitutional right to own, or even hold in his hand, a firearm can still get his hands on one and walk into a room and shoot you.
So much for laws making the world a safe place.
This is a free country. A free society has dangers inherent in it. Deal with it.
Not sure how "free" this country is anymore, but, yes, free or not, the world will always be a dangerous place. Passing new laws to try to make it safer only inconveniences the people that you never had to worry about in the first place. The people that make it a dangerous place will keep on doing what they do with no regard for legislation.
Your freedom to swing your fist ends at my face. Your freedom shine a laser ends at my eyes.
I agree with that 100%.
What I don't agree with is being forced to have my hands amputated just because having hands would allow me to punch you in the face if I ever felt provoked to do so.
And, yes, I would rather take the risk that you might someday punch me in the face than to have you undergo involuntary hand amputation, as well.
The law should deal with actions that people have taken. Not actions that they "could" take.
And in most of the ones that do, there are ways around it.
If you want to purchase a firearm and don't feel like the government has any business being informed of your purchase, just don't go to a store. Buy it from a private individual. In most states that's perfectly legal and no paperwork required.
Not that there should be any paperwork required under any circumstance, but at least there are still a few loopholes.
I'm not an asshole, but I do occasionally say things that cause idiots to accuse me of being one. I don't let it bother me much.
And I've got plenty of karma to burn, too. I don't let that issue bother me much, either. My "fuck you both" post is the most down-modded thing I've written here in years, and even that post got up-modded enough that it's actually a net karma gain.
Yeah, probably. Buckets of feces and urine should get the point across, and still leave them physically functional in the event that the someday reform into a responsible member of society.
I can buy it at Walmart, pay in cash, and not have to show any ID. I can buy a HUGE canister with a longer range at pretty much any sporting goods store without having to identify myself (it will be marketed and labeled as "bear spray").
That's some pretty severe regulation going on there, huh?
Sure you can. As BMO pointed out, "pressing charges" is simply accusing someone in a formal manner.
Now, in the world we live in, you can "press charges" until you're blue in the face and it won't necessarily do you any good.
What you need to happen is for your act of "pressing charges" to be followed up by the DA *filing* charges. That's when it actually gets into the system and people start having to appear in court.
And, contrary to popular belief, you don't really have the option to "not press charges". If you're out drinking with your friends, things get out of control and your buddy punches you in the face and a cop sees it. Yeah, you can't just go say "I don't want to press charges" and get your buddy off the hook. He still committed assault, and even as the victim, you can't do much to stop the legal wheels from turning. In fact, you yourself can get into hot water if you refuse to show up at his trial and give at least the appearance of honest testimony.
The whole "pressing charges" phrase is radically misunderstood by most people.
I wholeheartedly approve of this idiot doing prison time for shining a laser at a helicopter.
I cannot conceive of a reason why this incident should prevent sane, responsible people from purchasing, owning, and using a laser if they have a need and/or desire to do so.
It was the malicious action that was the problem here, not the object used to carry it out.
I'm all ears if someone has a solution that lets non-dumbasses do whatever they want without the actual dumbasses causing havoc.
Umm.... Euthanasia, maybe?
What you're asking for is to live in the mythical "perfect world". It just ain't gonnna happen.
The best we can do is to enforce consequences on "causing havoc". It's not a perfect solution because the dumbass gets to cause havoc at least one time, but then we bitch slap him and hopefully he'll be smart enough not to do it again. If that doesn't work, the second time we skip the bitchslap and kick him in the balls. Eventually escalating to repeated blows to the head with an iron pipe. (I'm speaking figuratively here. I'm really talking about escalating levels of fines, followed by escalating lengths of incarceration.)
What should be blatantly obvious to anyone who bothers to actually think it through is that banning "things" doesn't accomplish jack.
As a society, we've abandoned the concept of personal responsibility. This jackass shot a laser at an aircraft. Everyone's response is "let's ban lasers!". OK, so we ban lasers, and now responsible people can't have them. And now the world is a perfect place, right?
Nope, 'cuz it's still filled with jackasses.
Sooner or later some jackass is going to tell his buddy "Here, hold my beer" and go throw a box of nails on the highway. Should we then ban nails? That would certainly make shelter hard to come by, but at least we wouldn't have to worry about anybody getting flat tires....
There will always be idiots, and they will always do idiotic things. If we ban everything they use in the process, we'll eventually get to the point where we need to go stand before a judge and get issued a license to posses and use a screwdriver.
Banning objects doesn't solve any problem, because the problem is stupid people.
And the sad reality is that you can't eliminate stupid people. Since we don't live in that mythical "perfect world", we have to deal with the fact that not every problem has an acceptable solution. It's just the way it is. Every time you leave your house in the morning, there's a chance that you won't return alive that evening. It's just the way it is, and no amount legislation is going to change it.
When you ban *objects* you simultaneously punish responsible people while letting the idiots that cause the problems off the hook.
That's probably as far away from a "perfect" solution as you can get.
Sorry, but you ad people are sleazy scumbags who can all be run off the cliff for all I care.
Not all ad people. I do use ad-blocking software on the Internet, but I do like to browse through the flyers in the Sunday paper to see what's on sale. And I'm not terribly bothered by advertising that slips through my ad-blocks. Ads aren't entirely bad as long as I am able to check them out when it's convenient for me.
Now sales people, on the other hand. Screw them. Why can't I just walk into Best Buy and look over their selection of small televisions. No, I don't "have any questions". And if I did, they would be out of the league of anyone willing to work for what BB pays. Now go sell someone a $5,000 HDMI cable and let me do my shopping in peace.
If I went around with 200,000 BTU/hr propane torch and fired it off across the bar from people, I'd expect to be restrained
And I would WHOLEHEARTEDLY be in support of your lengthy incarceration. But I would NOT be in favor of an outright ban on propane torches!
Throw the idiots in jail, but don't make me have to get a "propane torch permit" from the county sherrif the next time I need to fix the plumbing in my house.
Banning inanimate objects will not stop idiots from being idiots. Hell, it won't even stop them from doing stupid things with the object that was banned. Pot is illegal, you know how long it would take me to go get an ounce or two of it? So, yeah, banning things works great, huh?
Laws should ban harmful actions, not useful objects.
Not entirely sure just how "out of context" those quotes were. Even after a re-read, I still think they highlight the gist of what the posters were saying.
For example, I quoted "then handheld lasers need to be outright banned" from the sentence "There needs to be *at a minimum* public education on this issue, and if nobody is willing to do that, then handheld lasers need to be outright banned for unlicensed individuals."
Since we all know that "public education", whatever the hell that is, accomplishes exactly jack shit, I feel there was no need to include that in the quote. And the "unlicensed individuals" part, well, since I quoted another guy on the licensing part, why include that issue twice?
I was simply highlighting the specific points I objected to. To me, "out of context" would mean I made it seem like they were supporting a position that they actually weren't. That's not the case here. When I go back and read their entire posts again (in context), I come to the conclusion that they are in support of the things that I quoted. I don't see how my selections would have led to any inaccurate conclusions about what the posters were trying to say.
Why didn't you say that in the first place instead of your 'Fuck you both,' response?
Oh hell, I don't know. Bad timing? Maybe I just happened to stumble across those comments when I wasn't quite in the best of moods.
I still don't think it was entirely inappropriate. The notion that government intervention and reduction of freedom is an appropriate response to anything and everything that's wrong with the world is FAR more offensive than a few 4 letter words tossed about on the Internet.
As for me being an asshole... Eh, not really, but I've been accused of it plenty. I don't let it bother me much.
So perhaps you have another means of making sure people use their freedom responsibly, and in a way that doesn't endanger others? Because so far, just letting them do what they want isn't cutting it.
Nope, I don't have another way. In all likelihood, there isn't a way. The world isn't a perfectly safe place and it never will be. I'm 100% fine with that.
What I'm NOT fine with is making something illegal for me because of the actions of some idiot who won't even pay attention to or be affected by that law.
The last thing this country needs is a bunch of people walking around blind because dumbfucks like to play with pretty lights.
I see the point you're making, but disagree with the proposed solution with every last fiber of my being. Stripping freedom from non-dumbfucks as a result of the actions of a few actual dumbfucks does not make the world a better or safer place. A dumbfuck without a laser pointer will go find other ways to showcase his dumbfuckery. Some may be less dangerous, some will certainly be more dangerous.
If you can figure out a way to eliminate dumbfucks, then, and only then, can you have a nice, safe world. Trying to outlaw each and every assorted manner in which they may display their idiocy is A) unfair to the majority who don't need to be told not to point lasers at people, and B) pointless, since the people who do this kind of crap will just dream up new ways to do the same kind of crap.
I willingly and happily accept the fact that living in a world that has dangers is part of the price of freedom, and safety without freedom is not a world worth living in.
Slashdot Mirror
Wow.
And yet another state gets added to my list of "places I never, ever want to live".
There are *thousands* of idiots doing this.
So where are the news reports of *thousands* of plane crashes?
The phrase "mountains out of molehills" comes to mind.
I'm not defending the act of shining a laser at an airplane. That is, and should be, illegal. Those who do it can, and should be, incarcerated.
What I'm saying is that it is a MASSIVE overreaction to start requiring college professors to get a government issued permit to use a laser pointer in their classroom.
Jesus H. Fucking Christ.
Now we're advocating waiting periods for a frickin' laser pointer?
Out of all of the various versions of the future that Hollywood has thrown out there over the years, I never would have guessed it. I never in a million years would have fucking guessed it. "Demolition Man" is the one that actually got it right.
Hell, I'm getting too old to fight it. Where do I pick up my sex goggles?
Since when were you granted a right to own a laser?
Since fucking when do I NEED to be "granted" a right to own anything?
The minute they were invented I automatically had the right to own one, as long as I had the means to acquire one from somebody, or acquire the parts to build one.
I may not have the right to aim one at your face, but I sure as hell have the right to possess one.
Rights are not something that must be granted. The government does not "grant" you rights to do anything. Government can only try to deny you rights, and even then, only through the threat of force.
I hear ya, but getting to that mythical perfect world seems like a useful thing to do. Throwing your hands up and saying "Nope, ain't gonna happen!"...not so much.
Actually, throwing your hands up and saying "Nope, ain't gonna happen" is a VERY useful thing. It's how one preserves his sanity rather than go crazy in the pursuit of an unattainable goal. It's a necessary part of transitioning from being an idealistic youth to being a functional member of a healthy society. Most of the good things that happen are brought about by the efforts and energy of people who stopped wasting their time and effort on the unattainable. (The trick is being able to separate what is truly unattainable from that with is merely extremely difficult.)
Anyway, I wasn't saying the solution was banning them. I'm losing my willingness to tolerate these sort of dumbasses, though. Once upon a time I would have been in the "show me actual harm" crowd, but right now I'm willing to put him away for a while merely for trying to cause harm. I guess that's where I get to on things like this. This guy isn't necessarily stupid. He's malicious. He might be stupid, too.
Now, see, here your'e trying to make the same point I've been trying to make all along. I have ZERO problem with this guy doing time for what he did. What I have a problem with is saying that NOBODY can own a laser now because there is a possible way that it could, maybe, be used for something malicious. Lasers are perfectly good and useful tools. So are hammers. Both can be used to do good, and both can be used to do harm. Legislate the behavior, not the object.
There's a resort I go to that sold these. It got to the point where going there was a nuisance for all the dumbasses shining them around. They were banned around a year ago. It'll be interesting to see how many are shining around next time I go back. In your theoretical world, banning things doesn't work. In the real world, it sometimes does make a difference. Not always, of course. Prohibition is a great example where it didn't.
I have no problem with a private resort banning anything. If you want to buy a piece of land to set up a resort where there are no blue shirts allowed, go for it. Hell, if it's on a nice lake, I might even join. But that doesn't mean that I want my government to ban blue shirts.
Your freedom ends at the precise point where it encroaches on someone else's freedom.
OK, fine. I'll concede that point.
Banning lasers encroaches on my freedom to own one. Therefore they cannot be banned, regardless of what freedom would be preserved by doing so.
I have terrible news for you. Someone could walk into a room where you are on any particular day and kill you with a constitutionally protected firearm.
Even worse news. A convicted felon who has been stripped of that constitutional right to own, or even hold in his hand, a firearm can still get his hands on one and walk into a room and shoot you.
So much for laws making the world a safe place.
This is a free country. A free society has dangers inherent in it. Deal with it.
Not sure how "free" this country is anymore, but, yes, free or not, the world will always be a dangerous place. Passing new laws to try to make it safer only inconveniences the people that you never had to worry about in the first place. The people that make it a dangerous place will keep on doing what they do with no regard for legislation.
Hang in there, dude.
Someday science will stumble upon the right medication for you.
Your freedom to swing your fist ends at my face. Your freedom shine a laser ends at my eyes.
I agree with that 100%.
What I don't agree with is being forced to have my hands amputated just because having hands would allow me to punch you in the face if I ever felt provoked to do so.
And, yes, I would rather take the risk that you might someday punch me in the face than to have you undergo involuntary hand amputation, as well.
The law should deal with actions that people have taken. Not actions that they "could" take.
And in most of the ones that do, there are ways around it.
If you want to purchase a firearm and don't feel like the government has any business being informed of your purchase, just don't go to a store. Buy it from a private individual. In most states that's perfectly legal and no paperwork required.
Not that there should be any paperwork required under any circumstance, but at least there are still a few loopholes.
I'm not an asshole, but I do occasionally say things that cause idiots to accuse me of being one. I don't let it bother me much.
And I've got plenty of karma to burn, too. I don't let that issue bother me much, either. My "fuck you both" post is the most down-modded thing I've written here in years, and even that post got up-modded enough that it's actually a net karma gain.
Go figure.
Cruel and unusual?
Yeah, probably. Buckets of feces and urine should get the point across, and still leave them physically functional in the event that the someday reform into a responsible member of society.
Plus it wouldn't waste any yummy tomatoes! :)
Pepper spray is regulated.
I can buy it at Walmart, pay in cash, and not have to show any ID. I can buy a HUGE canister with a longer range at pretty much any sporting goods store without having to identify myself (it will be marketed and labeled as "bear spray").
That's some pretty severe regulation going on there, huh?
Sure you can. As BMO pointed out, "pressing charges" is simply accusing someone in a formal manner.
Now, in the world we live in, you can "press charges" until you're blue in the face and it won't necessarily do you any good.
What you need to happen is for your act of "pressing charges" to be followed up by the DA *filing* charges. That's when it actually gets into the system and people start having to appear in court.
And, contrary to popular belief, you don't really have the option to "not press charges". If you're out drinking with your friends, things get out of control and your buddy punches you in the face and a cop sees it. Yeah, you can't just go say "I don't want to press charges" and get your buddy off the hook. He still committed assault, and even as the victim, you can't do much to stop the legal wheels from turning. In fact, you yourself can get into hot water if you refuse to show up at his trial and give at least the appearance of honest testimony.
The whole "pressing charges" phrase is radically misunderstood by most people.
So then there should be no laws ever?
I said no such thing.
I wholeheartedly approve of this idiot doing prison time for shining a laser at a helicopter.
I cannot conceive of a reason why this incident should prevent sane, responsible people from purchasing, owning, and using a laser if they have a need and/or desire to do so.
It was the malicious action that was the problem here, not the object used to carry it out.
Sounds good to me. I have no problem whatsoever with that.
I'm all ears if someone has a solution that lets non-dumbasses do whatever they want without the actual dumbasses causing havoc.
Umm.... Euthanasia, maybe?
What you're asking for is to live in the mythical "perfect world". It just ain't gonnna happen.
The best we can do is to enforce consequences on "causing havoc". It's not a perfect solution because the dumbass gets to cause havoc at least one time, but then we bitch slap him and hopefully he'll be smart enough not to do it again. If that doesn't work, the second time we skip the bitchslap and kick him in the balls. Eventually escalating to repeated blows to the head with an iron pipe. (I'm speaking figuratively here. I'm really talking about escalating levels of fines, followed by escalating lengths of incarceration.)
What should be blatantly obvious to anyone who bothers to actually think it through is that banning "things" doesn't accomplish jack.
As a society, we've abandoned the concept of personal responsibility. This jackass shot a laser at an aircraft. Everyone's response is "let's ban lasers!". OK, so we ban lasers, and now responsible people can't have them. And now the world is a perfect place, right?
Nope, 'cuz it's still filled with jackasses.
Sooner or later some jackass is going to tell his buddy "Here, hold my beer" and go throw a box of nails on the highway. Should we then ban nails? That would certainly make shelter hard to come by, but at least we wouldn't have to worry about anybody getting flat tires....
There will always be idiots, and they will always do idiotic things. If we ban everything they use in the process, we'll eventually get to the point where we need to go stand before a judge and get issued a license to posses and use a screwdriver.
Banning objects doesn't solve any problem, because the problem is stupid people.
And the sad reality is that you can't eliminate stupid people. Since we don't live in that mythical "perfect world", we have to deal with the fact that not every problem has an acceptable solution. It's just the way it is. Every time you leave your house in the morning, there's a chance that you won't return alive that evening. It's just the way it is, and no amount legislation is going to change it.
When you ban *objects* you simultaneously punish responsible people while letting the idiots that cause the problems off the hook.
That's probably as far away from a "perfect" solution as you can get.
Sorry, but you ad people are sleazy scumbags who can all be run off the cliff for all I care.
Not all ad people. I do use ad-blocking software on the Internet, but I do like to browse through the flyers in the Sunday paper to see what's on sale. And I'm not terribly bothered by advertising that slips through my ad-blocks. Ads aren't entirely bad as long as I am able to check them out when it's convenient for me.
Now sales people, on the other hand. Screw them. Why can't I just walk into Best Buy and look over their selection of small televisions. No, I don't "have any questions". And if I did, they would be out of the league of anyone willing to work for what BB pays. Now go sell someone a $5,000 HDMI cable and let me do my shopping in peace.
Ah... The art of using as many words as possible to say absolutely nothing.
It would actually be funny if it wasn't a skill that, for some mysterious reason, raises people to positions of wealth and power.
If I went around with 200,000 BTU/hr propane torch and fired it off across the bar from people, I'd expect to be restrained
And I would WHOLEHEARTEDLY be in support of your lengthy incarceration. But I would NOT be in favor of an outright ban on propane torches!
Throw the idiots in jail, but don't make me have to get a "propane torch permit" from the county sherrif the next time I need to fix the plumbing in my house.
Banning inanimate objects will not stop idiots from being idiots. Hell, it won't even stop them from doing stupid things with the object that was banned. Pot is illegal, you know how long it would take me to go get an ounce or two of it? So, yeah, banning things works great, huh?
Laws should ban harmful actions, not useful objects.
Not entirely sure just how "out of context" those quotes were. Even after a re-read, I still think they highlight the gist of what the posters were saying.
For example, I quoted "then handheld lasers need to be outright banned" from the sentence "There needs to be *at a minimum* public education on this issue, and if nobody is willing to do that, then handheld lasers need to be outright banned for unlicensed individuals."
Since we all know that "public education", whatever the hell that is, accomplishes exactly jack shit, I feel there was no need to include that in the quote. And the "unlicensed individuals" part, well, since I quoted another guy on the licensing part, why include that issue twice?
I was simply highlighting the specific points I objected to. To me, "out of context" would mean I made it seem like they were supporting a position that they actually weren't. That's not the case here. When I go back and read their entire posts again (in context), I come to the conclusion that they are in support of the things that I quoted. I don't see how my selections would have led to any inaccurate conclusions about what the posters were trying to say.
Why didn't you say that in the first place instead of your 'Fuck you both,' response?
Oh hell, I don't know. Bad timing? Maybe I just happened to stumble across those comments when I wasn't quite in the best of moods.
I still don't think it was entirely inappropriate. The notion that government intervention and reduction of freedom is an appropriate response to anything and everything that's wrong with the world is FAR more offensive than a few 4 letter words tossed about on the Internet.
As for me being an asshole... Eh, not really, but I've been accused of it plenty. I don't let it bother me much.
So perhaps you have another means of making sure people use their freedom responsibly, and in a way that doesn't endanger others? Because so far, just letting them do what they want isn't cutting it.
Nope, I don't have another way. In all likelihood, there isn't a way. The world isn't a perfectly safe place and it never will be. I'm 100% fine with that.
What I'm NOT fine with is making something illegal for me because of the actions of some idiot who won't even pay attention to or be affected by that law.
The last thing this country needs is a bunch of people walking around blind because dumbfucks like to play with pretty lights.
I see the point you're making, but disagree with the proposed solution with every last fiber of my being. Stripping freedom from non-dumbfucks as a result of the actions of a few actual dumbfucks does not make the world a better or safer place. A dumbfuck without a laser pointer will go find other ways to showcase his dumbfuckery. Some may be less dangerous, some will certainly be more dangerous.
If you can figure out a way to eliminate dumbfucks, then, and only then, can you have a nice, safe world. Trying to outlaw each and every assorted manner in which they may display their idiocy is A) unfair to the majority who don't need to be told not to point lasers at people, and B) pointless, since the people who do this kind of crap will just dream up new ways to do the same kind of crap.
I willingly and happily accept the fact that living in a world that has dangers is part of the price of freedom, and safety without freedom is not a world worth living in.
then handheld lasers need to be outright banned
Perhaps licensing.
Fuck you both. The last thing this country needs is people actively suggesting ways to strip more freedoms away from the people.