Any proof of the Church holding the inquisition against Rome's will?
No, but there's a great deal of proof of the Spanish Crown holding the inquisition against Rome's will. Especially when it came to treatment of the Jews.
Anyways, Copernicus feared persecution for the heliocentric theory; hence, he published it on his deathbed. Galileo was put into house arrest for life. Both were also in the Scientific Revolution, which was pretty much what it means, literally- scientific revolution.
Galileo's "House Arrest for life" was pretty damn luxurious- I hope to be arrested for my views in that way someday, gaining a patronage for my research.
Well, you could start with the Vatican Library. The Congregation for Doctrine of Faith is nothing if not meticulous record keepers- the complete trial of Galileo is availabe at your local monastery trading library.
Ultimately, Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism is an explosion of resentful rage against the success of Western civilization (e.g. the prosperity of Israel built out of a small non-oil-bearing corner of the desert).
Yes- and what exemplifies Western Civilization above all else? SECULARISM.
The term "universal value" is generally understood to refer to the general population of civilized people
True enough- but I'd argue that there are MANY civilized peoples around the world that don't value free speech- and even see such freedoms as a danger to civilization itself.
"Hmm, I look back at the records of that period, and I see secular governments doing the beheadings....not the Church. Sorry" the only secular government that was doing beheadings was the french, and that wasn't untill the 1700's. until then government was completely dominated by the church. get your facts straight.
What about the Spanish in the 1300s? What about King Herod for that matter, beheading John the Baptist? Or all of those martyrs in the first 200 years? In fact, I can find no time that the Church so dominated Government that the death penalty was completely abolished- despite it being against Canon Law all along (which is why the Inquisition outside of Rome was illegal).
Islam is 1/6th the planet's population. EXTREME Islam, the type we're fighting against, is a mere 10% of that- maybe 10 million strong. To them, secularism is everybody in the United States- we're all atheists to them- 300 million strong. And that's not even counting Europe. Do you see why they MIGHT feel a bit threatened?
Nothing to do with the fact that we arm and support tyrannical governments that violate Islamic laws about giving people trials before punishing them?
That's upper crust thinking- I'm talking about the street preachers who recruit the terrorists to begin with. To them, it's the infidels threatening their daughter's virginity with immoral and immodest clothing, the idea of anybody other than God making law, and the idea that the best infidel is a dead infidel. A different Koran than you've read, I'm sure- but that's how fundamentalists think, in verses taken out of context.
In the dark ages government depended on the church. The church excommunicates you, you lost all power.
Then why did the French move the center of the Church to Avalon, if Rome was so powerful? Why did the Spanish hold Inquisitions against the will of Rome, if excommunication of powerful kings was so easy? Best yet, how did Henry VIII kick the Church out of England and name himself, in essence, the Pope, if the Church were so powerfull?
Science didn't progress as it couldn't be afforded.
Funny, Copernicus had no problem getting his heliocentric theory published- he was even rewarded for it.
And when it did progress the church viewed it as a threat to the combination of Aristotle and Christianity that Church doctrine was at the time.
And yet, other famous figures than Galileo had no problem getting THEIR works published. Something tells me you're only seeing one side of the story.
Which is of course against profit- and since they can't sacrifice profit, free speech will be sacrificed instead. Americans are rather weak on ideals, but they're strong on the worship of money. This links back to the article in question because the blogger is a well known socialist and atheist.
The real problem is, modern governments have shown that they do control the rights of individuals- regardless of American 17th century religions to the contrary.
There's the theoretical world and the real world- and in the real world arresting people for speech the government doesn't like is actually a pretty measured and modern response- considering what Arabs in Africa and the Middle East have become famous for when it comes to dealing with free speech issues.
Which was started by the military expansion of Islam after General Mohammed figured out that a common morality and belief system was important for troop morale.
That's a subjective, self-serving, bullshit statement if I've ever heard one.
Not at all- listen to an Islamic street preacher sometime. It's the immorality and amorality of western culture, and the atheism of socialists, that forms the very basis of the hatred for infidels today. Of course, you're too smart to actually listen to what your enemies are saying, aren't you?
That is becose it did happen about 1500 years ago, during a period called the dark ages.
Hmm, I look back at the records of that period, and I see secular governments doing the beheadings....not the Church. Sorry.
But just few centuries ago, Christans where under the heal of the Church, that did ban sience and ideas that where agenst the bible.
What is sience? The Catholic Church was the patron of science, which was originally the search for a "second scripture" in "natural law". The Bible has never been the end-all-be-all of Catholic Church teaching- that's a lie from the reformation wars in England, and adherant of which wrote the English biography of Galileo and left out some important bits.
You don't have to look any futuren then 19th century too see that type of ignorance.
Well, true to a certain extent- if you listen to heresies like Sola Scriptura Protestantism.
That the blogger was anti-Islam seems to be totally irrelevant since Egypt is a secular state (much like Turkey).
Interesting definition of a secular state- do you think they'll be abandoning the Koran in their constitutions anytime soon? Or will the Turks accept the Kurds and the remaining few Armenians with open arms? I think if they did, they could help solve one of President Bush's major problems by annexing the northern third of Iraq. I'm now convinced that America has no friends in the middle east- only trading partners controlled by the enemy of us all, the petroleum corporations.
They arrest them because they imagine themselves to be more modern and advanced than their breatheren in other Arabic Countries, who merely behead them instead. I suppose if it's a question between being arrested or beheaded- I'd rather be arrested.
But this does raise an interesting point: Free speech isn't exactly a universal value, and we shouldn't expect it to be so. Just because our own secular religion "holds these truths to be self-evident" doesn't mean that they are either self evident or truths.
This clearly demonstrates the fact that islamists hate the free flow of ideas and, much like our christians, hate the fact that somewhere, someone is saying something which doesn't fit into their sky ghost cosmology.
I've never heard of Christians beheading people- though this response does seem mild in comparison to what other Islamic sects do.
It's savages like them and like the christian right who are going to plunge the world into the next dark age (we've already got the tools for an inquisistion set up in gitmo, syria and egypt).
I say we're already in a dark age- an age where spirituality has been forgotten in favor of secularism- forcing some of Pope Benedict XVI's "irrational extremeists" he's always preaching against to rise up in rebellion. Face facts- the reason why Islamic terrorism is so popular is precisely because atheists have become common.
Now that's the right problem. What is needed isn't some mysterious Universal Translator Format- it's storing the read hardware, with programs in ROM that understand the format, along with the electronic copy. Hell, store the whole thing in ROM chips with a well documented interface printed on the outside of the chip. Libraries could be made up of whatever reading technology exists at the time the library is built- with this common pin-level interface.
The real question to me is why their Linux workstations were costing that much. 2500 pounds sterling is about $5000 American- I can get pre-loaded, somewhat functional, Linux workstations at Fry's for $199. I could throw in an additional $200 worth of work and $50 worth of memory to make them as functional as any Windows workstation for $450- under 1/10th the amount they were spending.
In this case, a stinkin' left wing rag called The American Prospect, in an article comparing various forms of corporations. Of course, they claimed that the Free Market (as in large, publically traded corporations) were the best- for providing profit to stockholders, since that's the real measure of morality. Soon after this was published, Air America radio got ahold of it, and started talking about the 8 cents vs 8 dollars models....8 cents out of every dollar being about what Wal*Mart leaves in the local economy for electricity and labor costs, 8 dollars for every dollar spent what a local business leaves in the local economy. It was big news in my community a few years back- this all happened just as a rich upscale community was battling against a Wal-Mart moving in.
I don't agree. Collective accountability is lousy morals. I would indeed support better mechanisms to inform consumers. I look forward to those mechanisms being more readily available.
The free market is against developing such mechanisms- it's far cheaper just to lie to the consumers. The majority of them will never do the research to uncover the lie and find the alternative before you've effectively removed the alternative from the marketplace.
I'd love to have a personal relationship with somebody I pay to make my clothes. Unfortunately, I can't afford bespoke clothing. I don't have any way of ensuring that my clothes are made equitably, but I would support mechanisms that assist me with that.
One of the better mechanisms I've heard of is the concept of local tariffs to reduce costs for local craftspeople. Protected Local Industry returns an average of $8 economic activity to the local community, so such laws are profitable and do pay. But they tend to be anti-free-market, because they raise the cost of foriegn goods (and foreign goods in this case could be just the next town over).
I didn't say hunky dory. I did say that more people have more wealth today than at any point in history. More people having more wealth is Good.
I'd say fewer people have wealth today than at any point in history. In fact, we seem to have concentrated the wealth into about 6000 family names worldwide, if the "Fortune Top" lists are to be believed. You and I will never be allowed to show up on those lists.
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Any proof of the Church holding the inquisition against Rome's will?
No, but there's a great deal of proof of the Spanish Crown holding the inquisition against Rome's will. Especially when it came to treatment of the Jews.
Anyways, Copernicus feared persecution for the heliocentric theory; hence, he published it on his deathbed. Galileo was put into house arrest for life. Both were also in the Scientific Revolution, which was pretty much what it means, literally- scientific revolution.
Galileo's "House Arrest for life" was pretty damn luxurious- I hope to be arrested for my views in that way someday, gaining a patronage for my research.
Well, you could start with the Vatican Library. The Congregation for Doctrine of Faith is nothing if not meticulous record keepers- the complete trial of Galileo is availabe at your local monastery trading library.
Ultimately, Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism is an explosion of resentful rage against the success of Western civilization (e.g. the prosperity of Israel built out of a small non-oil-bearing corner of the desert).
Yes- and what exemplifies Western Civilization above all else? SECULARISM.
Isn't that the basic idea of democracy? That many idiots can rule better than few idiots?
The term "universal value" is generally understood to refer to the general population of civilized people
True enough- but I'd argue that there are MANY civilized peoples around the world that don't value free speech- and even see such freedoms as a danger to civilization itself.
"Hmm, I look back at the records of that period, and I see secular governments doing the beheadings....not the Church. Sorry" the only secular government that was doing beheadings was the french, and that wasn't untill the 1700's. until then government was completely dominated by the church. get your facts straight.
What about the Spanish in the 1300s? What about King Herod for that matter, beheading John the Baptist? Or all of those martyrs in the first 200 years? In fact, I can find no time that the Church so dominated Government that the death penalty was completely abolished- despite it being against Canon Law all along (which is why the Inquisition outside of Rome was illegal).
Islam is 1/6th the planet's population. EXTREME Islam, the type we're fighting against, is a mere 10% of that- maybe 10 million strong. To them, secularism is everybody in the United States- we're all atheists to them- 300 million strong. And that's not even counting Europe. Do you see why they MIGHT feel a bit threatened?
Nothing to do with the fact that we arm and support tyrannical governments that violate Islamic laws about giving people trials before punishing them?
That's upper crust thinking- I'm talking about the street preachers who recruit the terrorists to begin with. To them, it's the infidels threatening their daughter's virginity with immoral and immodest clothing, the idea of anybody other than God making law, and the idea that the best infidel is a dead infidel. A different Koran than you've read, I'm sure- but that's how fundamentalists think, in verses taken out of context.
In the dark ages government depended on the church. The church excommunicates you, you lost all power.
Then why did the French move the center of the Church to Avalon, if Rome was so powerful? Why did the Spanish hold Inquisitions against the will of Rome, if excommunication of powerful kings was so easy? Best yet, how did Henry VIII kick the Church out of England and name himself, in essence, the Pope, if the Church were so powerfull?
Science didn't progress as it couldn't be afforded.
Funny, Copernicus had no problem getting his heliocentric theory published- he was even rewarded for it.
And when it did progress the church viewed it as a threat to the combination of Aristotle and Christianity that Church doctrine was at the time.
And yet, other famous figures than Galileo had no problem getting THEIR works published. Something tells me you're only seeing one side of the story.
Both of those are infected by the original propaganda. I suggest going for original sources instead. But you'll need to learn Latin to read them.
That's not a beheading- and it was a response to an invasion, not a matter of morals or faith.
Which is of course against profit- and since they can't sacrifice profit, free speech will be sacrificed instead. Americans are rather weak on ideals, but they're strong on the worship of money. This links back to the article in question because the blogger is a well known socialist and atheist.
The real problem is, modern governments have shown that they do control the rights of individuals- regardless of American 17th century religions to the contrary.
There's the theoretical world and the real world- and in the real world arresting people for speech the government doesn't like is actually a pretty measured and modern response- considering what Arabs in Africa and the Middle East have become famous for when it comes to dealing with free speech issues.
*insert random comment about petrodollar free traitorism here*
Nevermind that whole crusades thing...
Which was started by the military expansion of Islam after General Mohammed figured out that a common morality and belief system was important for troop morale.
That's a subjective, self-serving, bullshit statement if I've ever heard one.
Not at all- listen to an Islamic street preacher sometime. It's the immorality and amorality of western culture, and the atheism of socialists, that forms the very basis of the hatred for infidels today. Of course, you're too smart to actually listen to what your enemies are saying, aren't you?
That is becose it did happen about 1500 years ago, during a period called the dark ages.
Hmm, I look back at the records of that period, and I see secular governments doing the beheadings....not the Church. Sorry.
But just few centuries ago, Christans where under the heal of the Church, that did ban sience and ideas that where agenst the bible.
What is sience? The Catholic Church was the patron of science, which was originally the search for a "second scripture" in "natural law". The Bible has never been the end-all-be-all of Catholic Church teaching- that's a lie from the reformation wars in England, and adherant of which wrote the English biography of Galileo and left out some important bits.
You don't have to look any futuren then 19th century too see that type of ignorance.
Well, true to a certain extent- if you listen to heresies like Sola Scriptura Protestantism.
That the blogger was anti-Islam seems to be totally irrelevant since Egypt is a secular state (much like Turkey).
Interesting definition of a secular state- do you think they'll be abandoning the Koran in their constitutions anytime soon? Or will the Turks accept the Kurds and the remaining few Armenians with open arms? I think if they did, they could help solve one of President Bush's major problems by annexing the northern third of Iraq. I'm now convinced that America has no friends in the middle east- only trading partners controlled by the enemy of us all, the petroleum corporations.
Not everybody follows the religion that freedom is the highest value; not even most Americans do that. Profit is usually held to be a higher value.
They arrest them because they imagine themselves to be more modern and advanced than their breatheren in other Arabic Countries, who merely behead them instead. I suppose if it's a question between being arrested or beheaded- I'd rather be arrested.
But this does raise an interesting point: Free speech isn't exactly a universal value, and we shouldn't expect it to be so. Just because our own secular religion "holds these truths to be self-evident" doesn't mean that they are either self evident or truths.
This clearly demonstrates the fact that islamists hate the free flow of ideas and, much like our christians, hate the fact that somewhere, someone is saying something which doesn't fit into their sky ghost cosmology.
I've never heard of Christians beheading people- though this response does seem mild in comparison to what other Islamic sects do.
It's savages like them and like the christian right who are going to plunge the world into the next dark age (we've already got the tools for an inquisistion set up in gitmo, syria and egypt).
I say we're already in a dark age- an age where spirituality has been forgotten in favor of secularism- forcing some of Pope Benedict XVI's "irrational extremeists" he's always preaching against to rise up in rebellion. Face facts- the reason why Islamic terrorism is so popular is precisely because atheists have become common.
And besides, at least they're not beheading the bloggers- merely arresting them. This is a step up for Islamic nations in the area.
Now that's the right problem. What is needed isn't some mysterious Universal Translator Format- it's storing the read hardware, with programs in ROM that understand the format, along with the electronic copy. Hell, store the whole thing in ROM chips with a well documented interface printed on the outside of the chip. Libraries could be made up of whatever reading technology exists at the time the library is built- with this common pin-level interface.
The real question to me is why their Linux workstations were costing that much. 2500 pounds sterling is about $5000 American- I can get pre-loaded, somewhat functional, Linux workstations at Fry's for $199. I could throw in an additional $200 worth of work and $50 worth of memory to make them as functional as any Windows workstation for $450- under 1/10th the amount they were spending.
Where do you get your numbers? Serious question.
In this case, a stinkin' left wing rag called The American Prospect, in an article comparing various forms of corporations. Of course, they claimed that the Free Market (as in large, publically traded corporations) were the best- for providing profit to stockholders, since that's the real measure of morality. Soon after this was published, Air America radio got ahold of it, and started talking about the 8 cents vs 8 dollars models....8 cents out of every dollar being about what Wal*Mart leaves in the local economy for electricity and labor costs, 8 dollars for every dollar spent what a local business leaves in the local economy. It was big news in my community a few years back- this all happened just as a rich upscale community was battling against a Wal-Mart moving in.
I don't agree. Collective accountability is lousy morals. I would indeed support better mechanisms to inform consumers. I look forward to those mechanisms being more readily available.
The free market is against developing such mechanisms- it's far cheaper just to lie to the consumers. The majority of them will never do the research to uncover the lie and find the alternative before you've effectively removed the alternative from the marketplace.
I'd love to have a personal relationship with somebody I pay to make my clothes. Unfortunately, I can't afford bespoke clothing. I don't have any way of ensuring that my clothes are made equitably, but I would support mechanisms that assist me with that.
One of the better mechanisms I've heard of is the concept of local tariffs to reduce costs for local craftspeople. Protected Local Industry returns an average of $8 economic activity to the local community, so such laws are profitable and do pay. But they tend to be anti-free-market, because they raise the cost of foriegn goods (and foreign goods in this case could be just the next town over).
I didn't say hunky dory. I did say that more people have more wealth today than at any point in history. More people having more wealth is Good.
I'd say fewer people have wealth today than at any point in history. In fact, we seem to have concentrated the wealth into about 6000 family names worldwide, if the "Fortune Top" lists are to be believed. You and I will never be allowed to show up on those lists.