Yeah, I'm priamrily talking about home/soho level isps though. If someone buys a t3, they've probably also got a ton of address space assigned to them, that probably isn't a part of a consumer level range. As far as I'm concerned, they can block that all they want. It becomes an issue when an rbl blocks an entire/24, or multiple, to stop someone with maybe 4 ips within a specific subnet. It's like blowing up a house to kill a few spiders. The most ridiculous case I've had to deal with was an individual who was hosting en email address, for someone who used that email address, as an administrative contact on a domain record, for an organization that was somehow associated with spam. I mean, the mails neither crossed, nor reflected any portion of our network, and somehow that merited blocking an entire/20. I couldn't believe that!
If you constantly have to deal with SPEWS BS, that means you constantly have spammers using your services for more than a few hours in a row. That means you are part of the problem -- and your opinion against SPEWS is because it inconveniences you and you are apparently too lazy to thoroughly purge them from your systems.
"For more than a few hours"? Ahh I see, so ISP's should be psychic as to the activities of what some odd thousand people might be doing at any given moment? You show me an ISP with that much oversight into their network, that also allows their users some basic rudimentary net-freedom and I'll show you a pregnant nun.
Not surprising, considering you can't seem to get it together to format a reply.
TELL YA WAHT I WIL EVENS THROW IN SOME SPELIONG AND GRAMMATICALKS ERRORS YOOU CAN POINT OUT TO!
Non sequitor? If you are receiving spam from a/28 range of x.x.x.x-x.x.x.x, swip'd to john q. organization, and you block that isolated route accordingly, the logical conclusion would follow that you would no longer receive email from that route.
No, SPEWS is out to get clueless, complicit, or malicious ISPs like the ones you work for
You're an asshat. My employer has an outstanding reputation, I don't need to justify that here though.
Bottom line: spews is getting hammered, long time coming, bitch all ya want with the rest of the retards on n.a.n.a.e. I'm laughing all the way.
sorbs, monkeys.com, & spamhaus pull right up for me, without any delay at all. Then again, it's also possible that they haven't burned any bridges with their neighboring networks & might have gotten some filtering cooperation from upstream (yeah, that's a speculation, who knows, all I know is they are online and spews is not).
And most US-based ISPs are not in the blacklists, either.
The ones who *do* have a problem shutting down spammers because of cluelessness, complicity, or malice have constant problems with blacklists.
I beg to differ. I work for one and constantly have to deal with spews bs, on many occasions, for some for some REALLY reaching spam associations.
You make that statement, but it it is obviously false to fact. That measure was taken precisely because blocking only spam sources did not work; no one allows spam to be *sourced* from their network any more.
No, it really isn't necessary to block 65536 ip addresses to stop spam from one person, particularly when x block of address space being used (in some cases as small as a/30) is swip'd, identifiable, and can be completely isolated from the rest of the subnet. Spews doesn't pay any attention to this at all.
Again you make statements that are false to fact in every case except SpamCop. MAPS is the epitome of not-effective; but the others you mention are locking a barn door that doesn't have any horses behind it; open relay is not the problem any more.
"Maps is the epitome of not-effective", what because the grassroorts anti-spam community is too cheap to cough up the scratch to use it? Gift from the clue tree jackhole, that is you're opinion, not fact. Don't tell me open relays & proxies are not a problem anymore, I see em all the time.
I simply don't believe you, sir.
If I cared, I would have asked. I used osirusoft, they suck. Whitelisting works. Try it.
What makes you think they don't? Most U.S. based ISPs don't require anything more than enough complaints with reasonable evidence to shut spammers down. It's really unnecessary to block an entire/24 or/16 if you think that's what is necessary to get attention. Spamcop, ordb, dsbl, & maps are just great and actually are bold enough to let the world know who they are and what they are doing. Spews takes it WAY too far, are completely irresponsible, are the worst chickenhawks on the net, and completely ineffective. Just for argument's sake, a couple years back, I used osirusoft for about a month with not even a dent in the amount of crap I received in my inbox. But did lose a lot of email from people that should have never been associated with their listings. This cost me time and money. I don't blame the isp who got themself blacklisted because they never received any complaints directly. This was because the only relation between them to the said spammer, was a freaking email address hosted by one of their customers, which was used as a the administrative contact record, for a domain they had nothing to do with.
N.A.N.A.E, Osirusoft, s.p.e.w.s. : Chug one.
I'm happy to see you getting what you've had coming for a long time.
I agree completely. Having had to deal with spammers directly on a pretty regular basis over the last 3-4 years, I would doubt the vast majority are technically competent enough to pull something like this off. Spews/Osirusoft have long since pissed off enough people through their excessive blacklisting that some sort of backlash was pretty inevitable. The anonymity of spews won't save em from this. I'm surprised this didn't happen a long time ago.
Well-run, well-maintained, public blacklists are at best, moderatley effective. At one point on my personal server, I was subscribed to orbz, ordb, spamcop, and osirusoft simultaneously, with MAYBE a 30% reduction overall. I'm sorry but I'd hardly call that effective. Something you maintain yourself, for your own network, can be extremely effective as you are directly blocking spam that is relevant to what is inbound to your network.
I know that many spammers operate that way because I've had to contend with them in many instances (i.e. shut them down). Do all work this way? absolutely not. Some sit around on dialups scanning for open proxies, some colo boxes off-shore or in countries with no spam laws to speak of.
IMHO, bottom line:I think any isp that relies on 3rd party information (worst of all, ip ranges accused of spamming) to block spam like that is lazy and overall irresponsible.
Get on with my life? What makes you think I'm not? A: contending with poorly managed rbls has been a part of my job for some time now and as such a part of my life. B: I've been a member here for a couple years now and this is my only post here.
man, that's a damn shame. oh well, at least we can all say for a little while that "TEH INTARWEB WAS FREE OFS TEH SPAMMERS!!" thanks to the wanton chickenhawks at Spews.org and all of the whiney asshats on n.a.n.a.e. who have nothing better to do with their lives than refresh their nntp browser, looking for the next person requesting removal they can jump in and flame (read: GET A LIFE).
Let me paint you a picture:
Some bottom feeding marketing contractor rents a crappy, darkly-lit, 1-room office in some crappy part of town, orders a cable line, 3 or 4 dsl connections and maybe a fractional t1 to boot. He buys a list of a few million email addresses and begins spamming like mad over one of the lines. After x amount of warnings, gets shut down, moves operation to another line, reorders service on the one that got shutdown under a different name, and keeps going. This is a very typical scenario of a spam gang. I've seen/dealt with it many times. So taking cause/effect into account: what protection against spammers does a blacklist offer in this capacity? Nothing. At all. Spamming is a completely mobile enterprise. Only the isp gets hurt. Spammers aren't the least bit concerend about spews.org, or any other blacklist for that matter.
They don't sweat getting shutdown by the isps because they have other connection mediums waiting in the wing, and actually budget the service costs into their overhead without thinking twice, because the money they make is incredible.
I don't work for, nor have any association with brightmail, but they have a great product (if only my ISP would cough up the scratch and buy it...), but I think the mentality of spews could be summed up in their product review of brightmail (paraphrasing here, as the site is down and I can get an actual quote):
"only stops spam in real time, does nothing punitive against the spammer".
HELLO???!?!! Missing the point a little?? If you're not getting the spam, who gives a crap about the spammer?
It's pretty clear that these people and their associated usenet scene whores are just looking to skewer people, anybody really, over alleged spam. In this method of blacklisting, you're only hurting the ISPs. Nearly all (not all unfortunatley) isps in the US will shutdown a spammer if enough people complain. killing email for (in some cases) up to 65536 other non-related ips doesn't help. If it did, spews (or any blacklist for that matter) would have been more successful. In the last year, we've had more active blacklists to utilize than at any other point in the history of the internet and spam has only gotten worse, not better. Spews & Osirusoft are a shameful failure.
Solutions: Whitelisting is an excellent option on an individual email account level. On a grander scale, make your representatives pass laws, put you're money where your mouth is, and sue the spammers. They're in it for profit, when it becomes a greater liability, they might find a more worthy means of revenue.
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All of the ip space I control is very much public. When we get dos'd we get the attack filtered. nuff said. BTW, Anonymous posting is for pussies.
Yeah, I'm priamrily talking about home/soho level isps though. If someone buys a t3, they've probably also got a ton of address space assigned to them, that probably isn't a part of a consumer level range. As far as I'm concerned, they can block that all they want. It becomes an issue when an rbl blocks an entire /24, or multiple, to stop someone with maybe 4 ips within a specific subnet. It's like blowing up a house to kill a few spiders. The most ridiculous case I've had to deal with was an individual who was hosting en email address, for someone who used that email address, as an administrative contact on a domain record, for an organization that was somehow associated with spam. I mean, the mails neither crossed, nor reflected any portion of our network, and somehow that merited blocking an entire /20. I couldn't believe that!
If you constantly have to deal with SPEWS BS, that means you constantly have spammers using your services for more than a few hours in a row. That means you are part of the problem -- and your opinion against SPEWS is because it inconveniences you and you are apparently too lazy to thoroughly purge them from your systems.
/28 range of x.x.x.x-x.x.x.x, swip'd to john q. organization, and you block that isolated route accordingly, the logical conclusion would follow that you would no longer receive email from that route.
No, SPEWS is out to get clueless, complicit, or malicious ISPs like the ones you work for
You're an asshat. My employer has an outstanding reputation, I don't need to justify that here though.
Bottom line: spews is getting hammered, long time coming, bitch all ya want with the rest of the retards on n.a.n.a.e. I'm laughing all the way.
"For more than a few hours"? Ahh I see, so ISP's should be psychic as to the activities of what some odd thousand people might be doing at any given moment? You show me an ISP with that much oversight into their network, that also allows their users some basic rudimentary net-freedom and I'll show you a pregnant nun.
Not surprising, considering you can't seem to get it together to format a reply.
TELL YA WAHT I WIL EVENS THROW IN SOME SPELIONG AND GRAMMATICALKS ERRORS YOOU CAN POINT OUT TO!
Non sequitor? If you are receiving spam from a
sorbs, monkeys.com, & spamhaus pull right up for me, without any delay at all. Then again, it's also possible that they haven't burned any bridges with their neighboring networks & might have gotten some filtering cooperation from upstream (yeah, that's a speculation, who knows, all I know is they are online and spews is not).
And most US-based ISPs are not in the blacklists, either. The ones who *do* have a problem shutting down spammers because of cluelessness, complicity, or malice have constant problems with blacklists. I beg to differ. I work for one and constantly have to deal with spews bs, on many occasions, for some for some REALLY reaching spam associations. You make that statement, but it it is obviously false to fact. That measure was taken precisely because blocking only spam sources did not work; no one allows spam to be *sourced* from their network any more. No, it really isn't necessary to block 65536 ip addresses to stop spam from one person, particularly when x block of address space being used (in some cases as small as a /30) is swip'd, identifiable, and can be completely isolated from the rest of the subnet. Spews doesn't pay any attention to this at all.
Again you make statements that are false to fact in every case except SpamCop. MAPS is the epitome of not-effective; but the others you mention are locking a barn door that doesn't have any horses behind it; open relay is not the problem any more.
"Maps is the epitome of not-effective", what because the grassroorts anti-spam community is too cheap to cough up the scratch to use it? Gift from the clue tree jackhole, that is you're opinion, not fact. Don't tell me open relays & proxies are not a problem anymore, I see em all the time.
I simply don't believe you, sir.
If I cared, I would have asked. I used osirusoft, they suck. Whitelisting works. Try it.
Amen. I think He will find himself on an island, surrounded by a lot of burnt bridges.
What makes you think they don't? Most U.S. based ISPs don't require anything more than enough complaints with reasonable evidence to shut spammers down. It's really unnecessary to block an entire /24 or /16 if you think that's what is necessary to get attention. Spamcop, ordb, dsbl, & maps are just great and actually are bold enough to let the world know who they are and what they are doing. Spews takes it WAY too far, are completely irresponsible, are the worst chickenhawks on the net, and completely ineffective. Just for argument's sake, a couple years back, I used osirusoft for about a month with not even a dent in the amount of crap I received in my inbox. But did lose a lot of email from people that should have never been associated with their listings. This cost me time and money. I don't blame the isp who got themself blacklisted because they never received any complaints directly. This was because the only relation between them to the said spammer, was a freaking email address hosted by one of their customers, which was used as a the administrative contact record, for a domain they had nothing to do with.
N.A.N.A.E, Osirusoft, s.p.e.w.s. : Chug one.
I'm happy to see you getting what you've had coming for a long time.
I agree completely. Having had to deal with spammers directly on a pretty regular basis over the last 3-4 years, I would doubt the vast majority are technically competent enough to pull something like this off. Spews/Osirusoft have long since pissed off enough people through their excessive blacklisting that some sort of backlash was pretty inevitable. The anonymity of spews won't save em from this. I'm surprised this didn't happen a long time ago.
Well-run, well-maintained, public blacklists are at best, moderatley effective. At one point on my personal server, I was subscribed to orbz, ordb, spamcop, and osirusoft simultaneously, with MAYBE a 30% reduction overall. I'm sorry but I'd hardly call that effective. Something you maintain yourself, for your own network, can be extremely effective as you are directly blocking spam that is relevant to what is inbound to your network. I know that many spammers operate that way because I've had to contend with them in many instances (i.e. shut them down). Do all work this way? absolutely not. Some sit around on dialups scanning for open proxies, some colo boxes off-shore or in countries with no spam laws to speak of. IMHO, bottom line:I think any isp that relies on 3rd party information (worst of all, ip ranges accused of spamming) to block spam like that is lazy and overall irresponsible. Get on with my life? What makes you think I'm not? A: contending with poorly managed rbls has been a part of my job for some time now and as such a part of my life. B: I've been a member here for a couple years now and this is my only post here.
man, that's a damn shame. oh well, at least we can all say for a little while that "TEH INTARWEB WAS FREE OFS TEH SPAMMERS!!" thanks to the wanton chickenhawks at Spews.org and all of the whiney asshats on n.a.n.a.e. who have nothing better to do with their lives than refresh their nntp browser, looking for the next person requesting removal they can jump in and flame (read: GET A LIFE).
Let me paint you a picture:
Some bottom feeding marketing contractor rents a crappy, darkly-lit, 1-room office in some crappy part of town, orders a cable line, 3 or 4 dsl connections and maybe a fractional t1 to boot. He buys a list of a few million email addresses and begins spamming like mad over one of the lines. After x amount of warnings, gets shut down, moves operation to another line, reorders service on the one that got shutdown under a different name, and keeps going. This is a very typical scenario of a spam gang. I've seen/dealt with it many times. So taking cause/effect into account: what protection against spammers does a blacklist offer in this capacity? Nothing. At all. Spamming is a completely mobile enterprise. Only the isp gets hurt. Spammers aren't the least bit concerend about spews.org, or any other blacklist for that matter.
They don't sweat getting shutdown by the isps because they have other connection mediums waiting in the wing, and actually budget the service costs into their overhead without thinking twice, because the money they make is incredible.
I don't work for, nor have any association with brightmail, but they have a great product (if only my ISP would cough up the scratch and buy it...), but I think the mentality of spews could be summed up in their product review of brightmail (paraphrasing here, as the site is down and I can get an actual quote):
"only stops spam in real time, does nothing
punitive against the spammer".
HELLO???!?!! Missing the point a little?? If you're not getting the spam, who gives a crap about the spammer?
It's pretty clear that these people and their associated usenet scene whores are just looking to skewer people, anybody really, over alleged spam. In this method of blacklisting, you're only hurting the ISPs. Nearly all (not all unfortunatley) isps in the US will shutdown a spammer if enough people complain. killing email for (in some cases) up to 65536 other non-related ips doesn't help. If it did, spews (or any blacklist for that matter) would have been more successful. In the last year, we've had more active blacklists to utilize than at any other point in the history of the internet and spam has only gotten worse, not better. Spews & Osirusoft are a shameful failure.
Solutions: Whitelisting is an excellent option on an individual email account level. On a grander scale, make your representatives pass laws, put you're money where your mouth is, and sue the spammers. They're in it for profit, when it becomes a greater liability, they might find a more worthy means of revenue.