doh! yeah... was thinking that the copyright doesn't implicitly transfer uless explicitly stated. I can't talk or type as fast as I think and I make these errors. I'd proof read my comments but I try and read the comments on slashdot as little as possible, including my own:)
Yeah but don't they still own the copyright to the work (patches) they submit unless they implicitly transfer them over? Isn't this why the FSF want's people to assign their copyrights over to them?
This is old tech. I remember people walkling into bathrooms and turning on the faucets in lots of shows and movies when they were telling secrets. That's why if I ever hear the sink running in a public restroom I wait a bit before enterring so as not to intrude.
A somewhat good news patent story on slashdot is a nice find. I hope he does well. It must be a terrible thing to have to go through what he went through and I hope he finds success in this and it brings him some comfort in that it may help others.
"Exactly: IBM tries to build something on top of the native toolkit, while Sun doesn't. That's why IBM deserves the support of Linux users."
Using the native toolkit doesn't seem to be a a popular choice in the open source world even though a couple popular open source applications use swt instead of swing.
From sourceforge.net:
Java AWT (109 projects)
Java Swing (832 projects)
Java SWT (144 projects)
Sun works on the linux ports of their jre and jdk for linux which includes making performance enhancements and better integration which they distribute free of charge. They also fund the development of an important open source project OO.o and have released a lot of other stuff as open source as well as working to help other projects like Gnome. Your implication that IBM deserves the support of Linux users and Sun doesn't is obviously biased.
Netbeans and Eclipse are more alike than other Java IDEs. They are both open sourced and available for free. In addition each project is built on a base that can be used by other developers as a foundation for building rich client applications.
IDEA and the JBuilder X Developer are really good IDEs, better than both Netbeans and Eclipse in a lot of ways, but they aren't free and they aren't platforms. IDEA goes for about 500 and JBuilder for about a grand.
There were a couple of things I saw that weren't accurate. Eclipse now has code folding and Netbeans has better JavaDoc support than seems to be indicated.
I've tried different IDEs. I used to use a text editor with syntax highlighting for java, jsp, xml, etc. I was able to set it up to compile single java files and if I spent some more time I could have probably put some ant integration into it. I also wrote some macros to do things like generate getters and setters for class members. This was all done with free tools. This is a step up from when I first started java development in notepad:)
I wanted to find an IDE that made things a bit simpler for me. Since I was primarily concerned with web applications, those are the features I looked at most. Netbeans really fit the bill for me. With Eclipse I still had to build the whole directory structure for the webapp, all the configuration files, etc. It was not much better than using the setup I had before. In fact it was worse in someways because I didn't even have the syntax coloring for jsp anymore. So I tried a couple of the plugins for web apps but didn't really like them too much and didn't find them worth the price compared to the free setup I had before.
With netbeans, I didn't have to worry about anything when it came to developing webapps. Tomcat was bundled and well intigrated, there was a good jsp editor with code completion, starting a new web project created all the directories, config files and ant build scripts and I could stop using system.out.println to debut jsp pages because the debugger actually steps through the jsp files. Only thing I really had to do was include the jdbc driver jar files in the appropriate directories but if I wanted to I could use the pointbase database that comes bundled.
This all gave me a big productivity boost. If you've always wanted to try and see what Java web development was all about Netbeans is the way to go. Once you download the IDE you can start going because you don't have to configure a database, http server or servlet engine This isn't all that hard if you're familiar with it but it is time consuming and if you've never done it before can be overwhelming.
I'm sure this was all by design. Sun wants more people to start developing for Java. They've made it easy and free to do so with Netbeans. Not only webapps but also swing based java applications and applications for mobile devices. It does serve Sun's interest but it's also good for the general Java community as well to have more developers entering it.
It's also good for IDEs like IDEA. Once people start working with Java development they will be exposed to IDEA at some point and may decide to switch once they've gone from and IDE that does some handholding to one that seems to read your mind.
A couple other things I like about Netbeans is the JavaDoc support. The javadoc ant task is generated in the project build file and all you have to do is right click and select it from the menu to generate the javadocs. Also the Auto Comment tool is pretty neat. I'm a big fan of JavaDoc comments, especially if you're working with a team or on an open source project. I also like how the code completion tool also has the java
Re:Am I the only one on here who likes Netbeans?
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Netbeans 4.1 Released
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I guess it depends on your perspective.
The way I see it, I can live without refactoring. Having and integrated web development environment is a lot more useful. People make money developing web applications. I don't know anyone with a 'refactoring service'.:) Its like getting free ice cream and being offered to buy sprinkles vs being given free sprinkles and having to pay for the ice cream. To me, refactoring is the sprinkles. There have anly been a couple of times when I really wished it was there.
So to me, Netbeans is more free. They're both open source, but the tools I need come free.
I love this quote from Tim Boudreau... A lot of the comments on this story really illustrate his point:
"IBM has done this pretty amazing reality-distortion thing around Eclipse - there are some people now who actually believe that Eclipse was the first open source Java IDE, or the first modular one, or the first rich client platform, when NetBeans was doing all those things years before. The marketing effort around Eclipse is a work of art, and my hat is off to the marketing and PR folks who achieved it. It certainly proves that throwing lots of money at a tools marketing problem is one way to solve it. We're not about to let them get away with that twice."
IBM also complains about how the JCP is too controlled by Sun but if you look at the PMC's for the Eclipse projects you'll see a whole lote more IBM email addresses than anything else.
From everythingI've seen and read, Eclipse/SWT is a real dog on linux. Swing is slower on linux than on windows but not as bad as swt. I wish I could find the blog but I remember one of the netbeans developers mentioning he tried to lod the netbeans source tree in eclipse and it choked. I wonder what Eclipse developers are using to develop Eclipse? That's probably not a failing of SWT but for such a long time Eclipse fanatics have been talking about how slow netbeans it's nice to see blogs and forum postings talking about how people are switching to netbeans because of how slow eclipse has become.
"There are other downsides to NetBeans. NetBeans is ONLY a Java IDE. Eclipse on the otherhand is a platform for developing in various languages. NetBeans also has no capability, or desire for that matter (hello Sun), to run with FOSS implementations of the Java runtime. To me this is not a big deal but to others it might be."
Well, this is not the case. Netbeans is an open platform with a plug in architecture. It's had this since before ibm started pushing eclipse. There have been modules writen for c/c++ and fortran. Sun's development tool Sun Studio 10 is based on netbeans and it is for c/c++ and fortran. In fact when it was Forte there's this interesting blurb from this article:
With this release cycle, the Forte Developer suite has been migrated to the NetBeans open source platform, which is the foundation for Sun's Forte for Java integrated development environment (IDE). Sun's family of development tools now shares a unified IDE, creating the first tool that works seamlessly for all major languages and across platforms. This approach helps improve productivity, enabling developers to work in multiple languages with one environment.
For such a long time some Eclipse fanatics have been dismissing Netbeans because Netbeans was slow... well now eclise is slow.... Eclipse is a foundation for building your applications netbeans is just an idea... well... netbeans was a platform before eclipse was a foundation... eclipse has plugins.... netbeans has plugins too... you just don't need to hunt around for as many of them as you need for eclipse to be productive.... eclipse supports more languages... well good for them.. netbeans can too... My favorite... websphere studio is built on eclipse so if I learn eclipse I'll know websphere studio... HA! These people obviously haven't used websphere studio.
As for these open java platforms? 1: you can get netbeans to develop applications targetted for them with a bit of setup even if you can't get neatbeans to compile and run on them... 2: why is it sun or netbean's fault of these open java platforms can't keep up?
I think there's a lot of people that need to wake up to what IBM is doing. Yeah they do some really good things but there's a lot more to the story.
"I'm using the IDE, not waging some holy war or caring about how it's implemented. I can't see how as an IDE user I would be happier with Swing because it is part of the J2SE."
I guess that depends on what types of applications you are developing and for what audience. One of the reasons people use an IDE is for the GUI building tools that give you a quick and visusal way to develop gui apps. If you're using Eclipse you're most likely going to be using the SWT tools. If you build your app using SWT you have to worry about distributing the SWT libraries as part of your application since it's not part of the base java system. If you're useing Eclipse as a foundation to build you're application you have to do the same.
If you develop for swing you know that if your user has a jdk they'll have the swing libraries.
If you want to provide your own look and feel to your application to set it apart, swing seems to be the easier choice with the new SynthLookAndFeel in Java 5 that makes it easy to create new looks and feels without any coding.
"I'm not quite sure what prompted you to even say this."
I didn't think you would.
Re:Am I the only one on here who likes Netbeans?
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Netbeans 4.1 Released
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I think you're right on one count. Netbeans started out as a Java IDE when it started at as someone's student project under a different name. By the time it was open sourced and released as Netbeans it was already a platform and IDE. This happened before Eclipse came out.
I've played around with the netbeans platform. All the IDE stuff are modules and easy to remove from the platform. The auto update is part of the platform as well. You can see who's built stuff on netbeans on their website. There's a long list.
Re:Am I the only one on here who likes Netbeans?
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Netbeans 4.1 Released
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Just a note... Netbeans shares the same principle in being a framework and the IDE is built out of plugins. Except in Netbeans speak it's platform and modules indead of framework and plug-ins. The difference is that Netbeans gives you a lot more stuff built into the IDE that Eclipse doesn't.
If you're working on projects of less than 50 files you can get the RefactorIT plugin for netbeans for free that will add a ton of refactoring support. There's also JRefactory which is open source but I haven't used it.
Re:Eclipse very slow after loosing focus for a whi
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Netbeans 4.1 Released
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like netbeans has had for years:) Right click on the toolbar and click on the Memory toolbar:)
" To be honest with you, I never even tried NetBeans. I don't think NetBeans has "plugins" like Eclipse does, so I doubt you can do anything other than Java on it.
And yes, I work for the Eclipse Foundation, so I'm obviously biased. But all my PHP and Java coding is done on Eclipse. I was an Eclipse user long before I started working for Eclipse, so I wasn't brainwashed by my boss =)
It's Eclipse's versatility that makes me like it enough to not search for or try alternatives."
Holy Crap! You work for Eclipse but you've never tried Netbeans. You don't even know that Netbeans is a tools platform like Eclipse is and Netbeans has been a tools platform for a lot longer. There are companies like Nokia still building on the Netbeans platform. The difference is, in the IDE, you get a whole lot more that you don't have to pay for. Even though you get a lot with the netbeans ide, there are still third party modules (plug-ins) developed for Netbeans. All the functionality built into netbeans the ide are built as modules.
I just find it really odd that you don't know anything about a product that is a competitor, in fact the only open source tools platform competitor... yet you come here and say why the competition sucks?
I don't know how you can even take yourself seriously.
I tried this in eclipse. I was never very happy with it. It wasn't very smooth from what I remember. Especially within the JSP's. If I remember correctly it stepped through the generaged java code for the JSP not the actual JSP. With Netbeans I can step throw everything including taglibs. You can attach to remote servers as well.
At the time I don't even think MyEclipse was much better at debugging. NitroX seems great but it costs 300 bucks.
Not trying to start an IDE war but I'm generally curious because I was never satisfied with the results... How are you doing your debugging in Eclipse and can you step through JSP's and taglibs?
Netbeans does support HTML, XHTML and CSS editing text editing. I wouldn't use it as the main tool for those but if you're building a web application that needs those types of files you can edit everything in the same IDE.
Things like Perl and PHP may not be too far away for netbeans either. They have the Coyote project which brings in support for Jython and Groovy.
It's nice to have everything in one space but sometimes it just makes sense to have different applications for specific purposes.
Well if you wanted to keep with what he said.. you would have done this
See, sometimes it's not good to win.
Re:Am I the only one on here who likes Netbeans?
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Netbeans 4.1 Released
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Eclipse definately has become more popular. That's probably due to the weaknesses in the earlier (3.5 and bellow) versions of Netbeans. I've used both over time and wound up going back to Netbeans consistently.
Web application development is a lot easier for me in Netbeans. If you've never done any java web application development Netbeans is definately the tool. It's very well integrated into the system. Right after you install it you can start to develop, debug and test web apps. The bundled tomcat server makes the whole setup a snap. You can even set up breakpoints and watches in JSP pages. When I first tried Eclipse, I was very dissapointed that it didn't even have a JSP editor. I spent a day looking through the different plugins trying to decide on one. None of them (at the time at least) were free, at least not anything good.
The way IBM is marketting Eclipse seems to be mainly as a barebones IDE where other vendors can write plugins to sell to users. Meanwhile, netbeans comes with a lot more with the initial install. I tried MyEclipse but I didn't want to pay 32 bucks a year for something I thought should have been part of the package.
The refactoring support is a lot better in Eclipse though. You can install the RefactorIT module in Netbeans and get a lot better refactoring support. It's a commercial module with a free version that supports limited numbers of files. The pricing isn't too bad for the features you get and the Netbeans team is working on more advanced refactoring features.
From some blogs and news articles it seems like more people are making the switch to Netbeans now. I read something that stated there were 5 million total downloads of Netbeans since it's inception. 1 million of those were for versions 4.0 and 4.1. That's a pretty big leap starting with those versions.
I haven't had any stability issues running Netbeans 3.6 up to 4.1 on windows using JDK's 1.4.2 and 1.5. Ever since 4.0 and jdk 1.5 came out performance was a lot better too.
"And why it's relevent is, well, duh, MOG brought up PJ's supposed membership in a mildly fringe religion to try to discredit her! Go look up the definition of "ironic" if you're still not clear on the concept."
Uhm... didn't MOG only say something to the effect that PJ was a Jehova's Witness and from talking to a friend that was a JW was told that being one is almost a full time job in itself so where does she get the time to run Groklaw?
I really don't remember readinng anything offensive about her religion. I really don't care enough to read it again to see if I may be wrong, but I thin some people are taking it the wrong way. Maybe because they have their own opinions about JW's.
I was wondering the same thing. First, she's a she. Second, she's over the age of 60 but doesn't have a beard and talk about how she helped start free software by letting people borrow her punch cards while she was working at Xerox in the 60's or something like that.
She calls herserlf a journalist but she is so obviously biased. Her writings deal with facts such as court documents but they are primarily opinion piecies. There is so much biased speculation in them. Which is fine, but don't write on your website you're a journalist.
She doesn't write much about non SCO issues, but when she does it seem to be aimed at IBM's rivals. She's voiced her opinion regarding a few of Sun's actions recently helping to grow the ill feelings some of the F/OSS community have against them. This is one example http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/4776 another is the whole "Sun funded SCO's Lawsuit" thing. If Sun paid SCO for Unix IP wouldn't like 90% of that go to Novell anyway and SCO only gets a 10% commion. I forget the exact numbers but that was the crx of the contract Novell had with SCO. Novell retains Unix IP and SCO is the salesman.
Meanwhile, IBM's in other legal proceedings and Groklaw doesn't cover those. Some of which wouldn't paint the open source defender in a very good light.
I don't see the big deal about Groklaw. If you ever sat and read the comments you'd realize they are even worse then the ones on slashdot. People can't even seem to remember basic facts in the history of the case but as soon as someone says something everyone just cheers if it's anti sco, microsoft or sun whether it's right or wrong.
I don't even see the site as that important. It's a PR thing for the anti sco side. IBM has more than enough money, lawyers and big company evil powers to win this onn their own. Reading Groklaw is like watching the michael jackson trial show on E! Its so obviously biased.
I don't thnk PJ is a paid shill for IBM though it wouldn't surprise me if she was. On the same token, I don't think MOG is a paid shill for SCO either. Again, it wouldn't surpise me if she was.
I thinnk what we have here is a case of two women, whose daddies' probably didn't hug them enough as kids, that both got involved in the same big event and found a level of recognition and popularity in but were at opposite ends. They wound up throwing inuendos at each other and from what i've seen it's been happening on both sides. They're both taking it way too personally because it's become their mission in life (that probably more for PJ) and it got out of hand.
PJ's on the good side so of course she was right and everyone comes to her defense but in my opinion both of them needed a reality check a long time ago. And not to mention the DoS attacks against Sys-con. That's TOTALLY not the type of response people talkinng about freedom, ethics, morality, etc should have. You wouldn't want to hire someone that does something like that whenn things don't go their way, nor would you want to rely o ntheir software, even if it was free.
And why is it such a crime to try and find out who PJ is? or who she was before Groklaw? All the people she rights about have executive bios onlien as well as interviews and other well documented histories. Like it or not, PJ has made hersellf a public figure by giving out facts heavily laced with her opinions and letting everyone read and participate online. People are going to want to know who she is and how much credibility to assign to her. People can pretend to be anyone online, it's like when some horny jerk from india im's you randomly and asks you if you're a woman and if you want to have "sex talk" so you tell him you're a pakistani hooker and try and see how many chickens he's willing to trade for you.
Groklaw has been trying to make some waves regarding the case and public opinion. It's bad enough when the media gets involved in cases but now we'r
Slashdot Mirror
doh! yeah... was thinking that the copyright doesn't implicitly transfer uless explicitly stated. I can't talk or type as fast as I think and I make these errors. I'd proof read my comments but I try and read the comments on slashdot as little as possible, including my own :)
Is this some new kind of troll or is slashdot posting replies into the wrong threads?
gnambulance gchaser?
Yeah but don't they still own the copyright to the work (patches) they submit unless they implicitly transfer them over? Isn't this why the FSF want's people to assign their copyrights over to them?
This is old tech. I remember people walkling into bathrooms and turning on the faucets in lots of shows and movies when they were telling secrets. That's why if I ever hear the sink running in a public restroom I wait a bit before enterring so as not to intrude.
A somewhat good news patent story on slashdot is a nice find. I hope he does well. It must be a terrible thing to have to go through what he went through and I hope he finds success in this and it brings him some comfort in that it may help others.
Patents don't kill innovation, people with patents kill innovation.
IDEA and the JBuilder X Developer are really good IDEs, better than both Netbeans and Eclipse in a lot of ways, but they aren't free and they aren't platforms. IDEA goes for about 500 and JBuilder for about a grand.
There's actually a pretty up to date feature comparison table for Netbeans, Eclipse, IDEA and JBuilder (free and non free) on the Netbeans.org site. It seems to be very fair even though Netbeans put it up.
There were a couple of things I saw that weren't accurate. Eclipse now has code folding and Netbeans has better JavaDoc support than seems to be indicated.
I've tried different IDEs. I used to use a text editor with syntax highlighting for java, jsp, xml, etc. I was able to set it up to compile single java files and if I spent some more time I could have probably put some ant integration into it. I also wrote some macros to do things like generate getters and setters for class members. This was all done with free tools. This is a step up from when I first started java development in notepad :)
I wanted to find an IDE that made things a bit simpler for me. Since I was primarily concerned with web applications, those are the features I looked at most. Netbeans really fit the bill for me. With Eclipse I still had to build the whole directory structure for the webapp, all the configuration files, etc. It was not much better than using the setup I had before. In fact it was worse in someways because I didn't even have the syntax coloring for jsp anymore. So I tried a couple of the plugins for web apps but didn't really like them too much and didn't find them worth the price compared to the free setup I had before.
With netbeans, I didn't have to worry about anything when it came to developing webapps. Tomcat was bundled and well intigrated, there was a good jsp editor with code completion, starting a new web project created all the directories, config files and ant build scripts and I could stop using system.out.println to debut jsp pages because the debugger actually steps through the jsp files. Only thing I really had to do was include the jdbc driver jar files in the appropriate directories but if I wanted to I could use the pointbase database that comes bundled.
This all gave me a big productivity boost. If you've always wanted to try and see what Java web development was all about Netbeans is the way to go. Once you download the IDE you can start going because you don't have to configure a database, http server or servlet engine This isn't all that hard if you're familiar with it but it is time consuming and if you've never done it before can be overwhelming.
I'm sure this was all by design. Sun wants more people to start developing for Java. They've made it easy and free to do so with Netbeans. Not only webapps but also swing based java applications and applications for mobile devices. It does serve Sun's interest but it's also good for the general Java community as well to have more developers entering it.
It's also good for IDEs like IDEA. Once people start working with Java development they will be exposed to IDEA at some point and may decide to switch once they've gone from and IDE that does some handholding to one that seems to read your mind.
A couple other things I like about Netbeans is the JavaDoc support. The javadoc ant task is generated in the project build file and all you have to do is right click and select it from the menu to generate the javadocs. Also the Auto Comment tool is pretty neat. I'm a big fan of JavaDoc comments, especially if you're working with a team or on an open source project. I also like how the code completion tool also has the java
The way I see it, I can live without refactoring. Having and integrated web development environment is a lot more useful. People make money developing web applications. I don't know anyone with a 'refactoring service'. :) Its like getting free ice cream and being offered to buy sprinkles vs being given free sprinkles and having to pay for the ice cream. To me, refactoring is the sprinkles. There have anly been a couple of times when I really wished it was there.
So to me, Netbeans is more free. They're both open source, but the tools I need come free.
IBM also complains about how the JCP is too controlled by Sun but if you look at the PMC's for the Eclipse projects you'll see a whole lote more IBM email addresses than anything else.
From everythingI've seen and read, Eclipse/SWT is a real dog on linux. Swing is slower on linux than on windows but not as bad as swt. I wish I could find the blog but I remember one of the netbeans developers mentioning he tried to lod the netbeans source tree in eclipse and it choked. I wonder what Eclipse developers are using to develop Eclipse? That's probably not a failing of SWT but for such a long time Eclipse fanatics have been talking about how slow netbeans it's nice to see blogs and forum postings talking about how people are switching to netbeans because of how slow eclipse has become.
"There are other downsides to NetBeans. NetBeans is ONLY a Java IDE. Eclipse on the otherhand is a platform for developing in various languages. NetBeans also has no capability, or desire for that matter (hello Sun), to run with FOSS implementations of the Java runtime. To me this is not a big deal but to others it might be."
Well, this is not the case. Netbeans is an open platform with a plug in architecture. It's had this since before ibm started pushing eclipse. There have been modules writen for c/c++ and fortran. Sun's development tool Sun Studio 10 is based on netbeans and it is for c/c++ and fortran. In fact when it was Forte there's this interesting blurb from this article:
For such a long time some Eclipse fanatics have been dismissing Netbeans because Netbeans was slow... well now eclise is slow.... Eclipse is a foundation for building your applications netbeans is just an idea... well... netbeans was a platform before eclipse was a foundation... eclipse has plugins.... netbeans has plugins too... you just don't need to hunt around for as many of them as you need for eclipse to be productive.... eclipse supports more languages... well good for them.. netbeans can too... My favorite... websphere studio is built on eclipse so if I learn eclipse I'll know websphere studio... HA! These people obviously haven't used websphere studio.As for these open java platforms? 1: you can get netbeans to develop applications targetted for them with a bit of setup even if you can't get neatbeans to compile and run on them... 2: why is it sun or netbean's fault of these open java platforms can't keep up?
I think there's a lot of people that need to wake up to what IBM is doing. Yeah they do some really good things but there's a lot more to the story.
I guess that depends on what types of applications you are developing and for what audience. One of the reasons people use an IDE is for the GUI building tools that give you a quick and visusal way to develop gui apps. If you're using Eclipse you're most likely going to be using the SWT tools. If you build your app using SWT you have to worry about distributing the SWT libraries as part of your application since it's not part of the base java system. If you're useing Eclipse as a foundation to build you're application you have to do the same.
If you develop for swing you know that if your user has a jdk they'll have the swing libraries.
If you want to provide your own look and feel to your application to set it apart, swing seems to be the easier choice with the new SynthLookAndFeel in Java 5 that makes it easy to create new looks and feels without any coding.
I didn't think you would.
The documentation for developing on the netbeans platform wasn't great but it's gotten a lot better. This blog entry is a good starting point to see what people are saying about the netbeans platform. It has a lot of links.
I've played around with the netbeans platform. All the IDE stuff are modules and easy to remove from the platform. The auto update is part of the platform as well. You can see who's built stuff on netbeans on their website. There's a long list.
So if you like Netbeans more than Eclipse you should be happy to know that Netbeans is also a platform and you can get plugins for it. This is a neat tutorial on building an application using the Netbeans Platform
If you're working on projects of less than 50 files you can get the RefactorIT plugin for netbeans for free that will add a ton of refactoring support. There's also JRefactory which is open source but I haven't used it.
like netbeans has had for years :) Right click on the toolbar and click on the Memory toolbar :)
And yes, I work for the Eclipse Foundation, so I'm obviously biased. But all my PHP and Java coding is done on Eclipse. I was an Eclipse user long before I started working for Eclipse, so I wasn't brainwashed by my boss =)
It's Eclipse's versatility that makes me like it enough to not search for or try alternatives."
Holy Crap! You work for Eclipse but you've never tried Netbeans. You don't even know that Netbeans is a tools platform like Eclipse is and Netbeans has been a tools platform for a lot longer. There are companies like Nokia still building on the Netbeans platform. The difference is, in the IDE, you get a whole lot more that you don't have to pay for. Even though you get a lot with the netbeans ide, there are still third party modules (plug-ins) developed for Netbeans. All the functionality built into netbeans the ide are built as modules.
I just find it really odd that you don't know anything about a product that is a competitor, in fact the only open source tools platform competitor... yet you come here and say why the competition sucks?
I don't know how you can even take yourself seriously.
At the time I don't even think MyEclipse was much better at debugging. NitroX seems great but it costs 300 bucks.
Not trying to start an IDE war but I'm generally curious because I was never satisfied with the results... How are you doing your debugging in Eclipse and can you step through JSP's and taglibs?
Things like Perl and PHP may not be too far away for netbeans either. They have the Coyote project which brings in support for Jython and Groovy.
It's nice to have everything in one space but sometimes it just makes sense to have different applications for specific purposes.
See, sometimes it's not good to win.
Web application development is a lot easier for me in Netbeans. If you've never done any java web application development Netbeans is definately the tool. It's very well integrated into the system. Right after you install it you can start to develop, debug and test web apps. The bundled tomcat server makes the whole setup a snap. You can even set up breakpoints and watches in JSP pages. When I first tried Eclipse, I was very dissapointed that it didn't even have a JSP editor. I spent a day looking through the different plugins trying to decide on one. None of them (at the time at least) were free, at least not anything good.
The way IBM is marketting Eclipse seems to be mainly as a barebones IDE where other vendors can write plugins to sell to users. Meanwhile, netbeans comes with a lot more with the initial install. I tried MyEclipse but I didn't want to pay 32 bucks a year for something I thought should have been part of the package.
The refactoring support is a lot better in Eclipse though. You can install the RefactorIT module in Netbeans and get a lot better refactoring support. It's a commercial module with a free version that supports limited numbers of files. The pricing isn't too bad for the features you get and the Netbeans team is working on more advanced refactoring features.
From some blogs and news articles it seems like more people are making the switch to Netbeans now. I read something that stated there were 5 million total downloads of Netbeans since it's inception. 1 million of those were for versions 4.0 and 4.1. That's a pretty big leap starting with those versions.
I haven't had any stability issues running Netbeans 3.6 up to 4.1 on windows using JDK's 1.4.2 and 1.5. Ever since 4.0 and jdk 1.5 came out performance was a lot better too.
oh yeah.. cause the federal gov't loves blacks and gays
Uhm... didn't MOG only say something to the effect that PJ was a Jehova's Witness and from talking to a friend that was a JW was told that being one is almost a full time job in itself so where does she get the time to run Groklaw?
I really don't remember readinng anything offensive about her religion. I really don't care enough to read it again to see if I may be wrong, but I thin some people are taking it the wrong way. Maybe because they have their own opinions about JW's.
She calls herserlf a journalist but she is so obviously biased. Her writings deal with facts such as court documents but they are primarily opinion piecies. There is so much biased speculation in them. Which is fine, but don't write on your website you're a journalist.
She doesn't write much about non SCO issues, but when she does it seem to be aimed at IBM's rivals. She's voiced her opinion regarding a few of Sun's actions recently helping to grow the ill feelings some of the F/OSS community have against them. This is one example http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/4776 another is the whole "Sun funded SCO's Lawsuit" thing. If Sun paid SCO for Unix IP wouldn't like 90% of that go to Novell anyway and SCO only gets a 10% commion. I forget the exact numbers but that was the crx of the contract Novell had with SCO. Novell retains Unix IP and SCO is the salesman.
Meanwhile, IBM's in other legal proceedings and Groklaw doesn't cover those. Some of which wouldn't paint the open source defender in a very good light.
I don't see the big deal about Groklaw. If you ever sat and read the comments you'd realize they are even worse then the ones on slashdot. People can't even seem to remember basic facts in the history of the case but as soon as someone says something everyone just cheers if it's anti sco, microsoft or sun whether it's right or wrong.
I don't even see the site as that important. It's a PR thing for the anti sco side. IBM has more than enough money, lawyers and big company evil powers to win this onn their own. Reading Groklaw is like watching the michael jackson trial show on E! Its so obviously biased.
I don't thnk PJ is a paid shill for IBM though it wouldn't surprise me if she was. On the same token, I don't think MOG is a paid shill for SCO either. Again, it wouldn't surpise me if she was.
I thinnk what we have here is a case of two women, whose daddies' probably didn't hug them enough as kids, that both got involved in the same big event and found a level of recognition and popularity in but were at opposite ends. They wound up throwing inuendos at each other and from what i've seen it's been happening on both sides. They're both taking it way too personally because it's become their mission in life (that probably more for PJ) and it got out of hand.
PJ's on the good side so of course she was right and everyone comes to her defense but in my opinion both of them needed a reality check a long time ago. And not to mention the DoS attacks against Sys-con. That's TOTALLY not the type of response people talkinng about freedom, ethics, morality, etc should have. You wouldn't want to hire someone that does something like that whenn things don't go their way, nor would you want to rely o ntheir software, even if it was free.
And why is it such a crime to try and find out who PJ is? or who she was before Groklaw? All the people she rights about have executive bios onlien as well as interviews and other well documented histories. Like it or not, PJ has made hersellf a public figure by giving out facts heavily laced with her opinions and letting everyone read and participate online. People are going to want to know who she is and how much credibility to assign to her. People can pretend to be anyone online, it's like when some horny jerk from india im's you randomly and asks you if you're a woman and if you want to have "sex talk" so you tell him you're a pakistani hooker and try and see how many chickens he's willing to trade for you.
Groklaw has been trying to make some waves regarding the case and public opinion. It's bad enough when the media gets involved in cases but now we'r