Let's get this out of the way. For the sake of discussion, let's accept that the Reddit report contains errors. In all fairness, we can then also look at the other side of the argument where the claim has been made that the FBI claims that only 21 such cases have occurred in the same time frame. What I did was to try to ascertain what the FBI defined a mass shooting as and quite quickly found out that the FBI doesn't really have a set definition for what qualifies as a mass shooting - so how can we say they are effectively reporting on the situation?
It can be daunting to wade through a long report. On page 9 of https://www.fbi.gov/news/stori... they define "mass killing" as 3 or more persons involved. (I disagree that that should be defined as "mass" but that is the definition the FBI is using) "The FBI found that 64 incidents (40.0%) would have been categorized as falling within the new federal definition of “mass killing,” which is defined as “three or more killings in a single incident.” [19] [19] Investigative Assistance for Violent Crimes Act of 2012, 28 USC 530C(b)(1)(M)(i).
That is applicable to 64 of the 160 "active shooter" incidents from 2000-2013.
The issue we should be examining is what can be done to reduce the number of shooting victims annually. We do know that in China, almost no murders by firearms are committed - but I am not suggesting that I would be happy trading my rights for such a society. I would be fine making sure that every single firearm owner was held to a stricter level of responsibility. What I mean by that is if you have a gun stolen from you, the first question which should be asked if the was gun properly secured. A specific example of irresponsible gun ownership might be leaving one in the glove compartment of a car. I submit that no one would do that with a substantial amount of money, why should we let someone also be as careless with any firearm?
While proper security is the responsibility of the firearm owner it is difficult for the state to enforce or set a standard. I have two safes: one high security for weapons, the other is for ammunition. I would still not appreciate the police wanting to regularly inspect my house for storage compliance (and whatever else they decide they can fine me for while they are there). Whatever weapon is ready for a short-term response can't be in the safe. When transporting, I can lock items in my vehicle, but a determined person with tools and time can retrieve it/them; a vehicle is not a safe. Some attorney would gleefully make the argument that my secure storage is sloppy and/or inept no matter how disciplined or secure it was by accepted standards.
I understand that on occasion a firearm might be stolen in a home break in but if it was secured in a gun locker, this wouldn't happen. We need to break the path that allows firearms to be bought legitimately but through whatever means finds their way into the wrong person's hands. None of us what the bad guy to get these weapons, not the police, not me and not you.
California is a good example. At the end of my last read they had non-compliant rifles and magazines for california. That means they either executed a felony modification themselves or executed an illegal interstate transfer without the california legal requirement to process through a Federal Firearms License (FFL) holder. Two felonies at least right there.
After Columbine and Connecticut very little effort was made to find and prosecute the sources of the weapons. Why not? This sounds like the kind of "making the guilty responsible" that should have been done. (and don't even get me started on Fast and Furious) Instead we hear platitudes like "we need to put this behind us".
so what do you do for the 354 other mass shootings this year not done by muslims?
(repeated from above) (Re: 355) Shooting tracker is provided by a openly biased anti 2ndA sub-reddit, not a factual news source. Their list also does not meet the FBI criteria for "mass shootings".
Average of 11.4 active shooter incidents per year. 16.4 in the last 7 years of the study. Median deaths per incident = 2, median wounded = 2. (page 9) The FBI found that 64 incidents (40.0%) would have been categorized as falling within the new federal definition of “mass killing,” which is defined as “three or more killings in a single incident.” (page 9)
I reject the definition of "mass killing" as 3 individuals, but that is the government's definition. Therefore 64/14 = ~ 5 per year average.
Another interesting quote: "In 63 incidents where the duration of the incident could be ascertained, 44 (70%) of 63 incidents ended in 5 minutes or less, with 23 ending in 2 minutes or less. Even when law enforcement was present or able to respond within minutes, civilians often had to make life and death decisions, and, therefore, should be engaged in training and discussions on decisions they may face." (page 8)
(repeated from above) Consider the following: "As for the Washington Post’s citing the 350+ mass-shooting statistic, it’s pure unadulterated nonsense. Stephen Gutowski of the Washington Free Beacon reported that only 21 of the 355 shootings on this sub-Reddit thread met the standards for the FBI classification of a mass shooting. Second, some of the incidents on the list aren’t even shootings, as indicated by Mediaite’s Alex Griswold. Here’s one that he found:
A pair of township boys are accused of shooting four others with a pellet gun, police said.
Nobody was seriously hurt by the 11- and 12-year-old boys who shot the pellet gun at them on April 25 in the Twinbrook Village apartment complex, Detective Lt. Kevin Faller said in a statement.
Of course, many publications omitted the fact that they’re citing Reddit." source: http://hotair.com/archives/201... [hotair.com]
11 and 12 year-olds with a pellet gun is a "mass shooting" ?!?
My objection is not to the lack of 100% accuracy, it is the inflation of 21 (yes too many) into 350 (overstatement used by press to invoke an emotional reaction).
While we agree that there a people who should not have access to firearms (or explosives or sharp things or the internet) the hard problem is defining and discovering who should not have them in a way that preserves civil liberties. I have heard no practical non-police-state ideas for that. Given that choice or one of "the real world is free(ish), but you have to accept some risk" I choose risk.
Are lives saved by the unfortunate yet necessary use of violence less valuable than those taken by unjust violence?
A recent hype is the proposed use of "no fly lists". There is no oversight or due process of "no fly" so that is worthless. (No, you did not suggest that, it is an example I am hearing repeatedly from "the media" and our "leaders".) Can we accuse our neighbors of being dangerous or insane as a cause to bar their civil liberties? How about an algorithm deciding their name is "too common" and they must therefore be untrusted? (Which has repeatedly happened to me. "Your name is common. Papers please to prove to the state/TSA/bank you aren't the bad person with your (similar yet not identical) name.")
Shooting tracker is provided by a openly biased anti 2ndA sub-reddit, not a factual news source. Their list also does not meet the FBI criteria for "mass shootings".
Consider the following: "As for the Washington Post’s citing the 350+ mass-shooting statistic, it’s pure unadulterated nonsense. Stephen Gutowski of the Washington Free Beacon reported that only 21 of the 355 shootings on this sub-Reddit thread met the standards for the FBI classification of a mass shooting. Second, some of the incidents on the list aren’t even shootings, as indicated by Mediaite’s Alex Griswold. Here’s one that he found:
A pair of township boys are accused of shooting four others with a pellet gun, police said.
Nobody was seriously hurt by the 11- and 12-year-old boys who shot the pellet gun at them on April 25 in the Twinbrook Village apartment complex, Detective Lt. Kevin Faller said in a statement.
11 and 12 year-olds with a pellet gun is a "mass shooting" ?!?
Continuously re-posting grossly inaccurate information does not make it fact. Even politifact agrees: http://www.politifact.com/trut...
Until that time most of the rest of us will continue to point out how you ARE the problem, not part of the solution.
Illiberal quoting of bad data to claim wrong-think while providing non-factual data, snark remarks, and moral superiority name calling as a rebuttal is the actual problem.
While we're on the subject of Reddits, here is one for defensive firearm use: DGU https://www.reddit.com/r/dgu (where they allow and encourage debate, unlike the owners of "shootings tracker":GRC)
Implementation which is sniff resistant
on
Port Knocking in Action
·
· Score: 2, Informative
So, what happens to the "ultimate, perfect interface handed down (in unchangalbe form) from we the enlightened" when it comes out of the lab?
The first thing that happens is that icons and buttons are added for "try AOL", "Real", etc. etc. etc. "No no no. We can't have that button there, that's where we are putting the 'sign up for Passport' button."
The second is that the interface is re-engineered to focus the eye upon the marketing of partner products and the interference with "efficient" use of compeditors and/or discouraged products, formats, etc. (.mp3 on XP, anyone?)
If allowing customization is the only way to get rid of all that, then I'd rather be "less productive" on my co-worker's computer 5-10% of the time than consistently annoyed and harassed (by my own computer) 100% of the time.
If Raskin produces the "one true interface" (OTI), let him cast it adrift and see if becomes dominant in a world of choice. Make skins for not only the OSs, but also the major skinnable apps. Encourage others to adopt his OTI by providing help, a free specification, and free license to use it. The OTI should gather a community of developers who want to bring the OTI to everyone.
If not, well, I guess it wasn't that great after all.
Linus probably isn't a good example. If Harrison Ford and the top 20 are the only actors making any money, there wouldn't be a movie industry.
People have to make money to live and be happy. I'm not talking about BMWs here, but a decent place to live (and maybe a good computer w/xDSL:) ) cost money.
There is nothing unclean or inferior about making a living by programming. The goal should be finding a way to program for money while also minimizing wasted duplication of effort and hostile standards which impede humanity's progress as a whole.
I firmly believe that both goals can live together. We just need to educate the Micro$ofts and Intels that it won't hurt them to let us help each other.
There has to be a balance. Open source is the superior way for things that the group need: OS's, model/image tools, APIs, math libraries, languages, etc. That doesn't mean you will be able to find everything you or your company needs. That's where paid programmers come in...
If someone hires me to program something for them, the second question is whether I leave the code with them or can I take it with me to use for the next project. The choice is theirs, but the cost difference is a factor of 3. (no, I'm not talking about their data, just the code to manipulate data of that type in that way)
If I can take it with, nothing prevents me from making the code open source. Of course, if there is no place to put it, no one will find it, and it is effectively the same as if I never wrote it as far as the rest of the software community is concerned.
A large percentage of a typical custom app. is just putting together the pieces. If I am writing AI for a game, I don't "re-invent" fuzzy logic, neural nets, or steering behaviors; I just know how to plug them into the customer's game engine to control their agents. This is the value of the programmer: knowing where to find the already created answer is as least, if not more, important than being able to create the answer from scratch (which costs 5 times as much effort).
The programmer's "artist" will create the next great API or library, but alot of programmers can make alot of money just knowing how to apply it to solve probems. Linus and Eric can make money being artists/leaders and we can make money being engineers. They will (deservedly) make more, but neither of us will be working a McJob.
Isn't $80 for *free* software on a few CDs a little steep? I still remember picking up slackware at the old campus bookstore with 6 CDs (and RedHat was on it, along with other distributions) for $20 only two years ago.
Slashdot Mirror
Let's get this out of the way. For the sake of discussion, let's accept that the Reddit report contains errors. In all fairness, we can then also look at the other side of the argument where the claim has been made that the FBI claims that only 21 such cases have occurred in the same time frame. What I did was to try to ascertain what the FBI defined a mass shooting as and quite quickly found out that the FBI doesn't really have a set definition for what qualifies as a mass shooting - so how can we say they are effectively reporting on the situation?
It can be daunting to wade through a long report. On page 9 of https://www.fbi.gov/news/stori... they define "mass killing" as 3 or more persons involved. (I disagree that that should be defined as "mass" but that is the definition the FBI is using) "The FBI found that 64 incidents (40.0%) would have been categorized as falling within the new federal definition of “mass killing,” which is defined as “three or more killings in a single incident.” [19]
[19] Investigative Assistance for Violent Crimes Act of 2012, 28 USC 530C(b)(1)(M)(i).
That is applicable to 64 of the 160 "active shooter" incidents from 2000-2013.
The issue we should be examining is what can be done to reduce the number of shooting victims annually. We do know that in China, almost no murders by firearms are committed - but I am not suggesting that I would be happy trading my rights for such a society. I would be fine making sure that every single firearm owner was held to a stricter level of responsibility. What I mean by that is if you have a gun stolen from you, the first question which should be asked if the was gun properly secured. A specific example of irresponsible gun ownership might be leaving one in the glove compartment of a car. I submit that no one would do that with a substantial amount of money, why should we let someone also be as careless with any firearm?
While proper security is the responsibility of the firearm owner it is difficult for the state to enforce or set a standard. I have two safes: one high security for weapons, the other is for ammunition. I would still not appreciate the police wanting to regularly inspect my house for storage compliance (and whatever else they decide they can fine me for while they are there). Whatever weapon is ready for a short-term response can't be in the safe. When transporting, I can lock items in my vehicle, but a determined person with tools and time can retrieve it/them; a vehicle is not a safe. Some attorney would gleefully make the argument that my secure storage is sloppy and/or inept no matter how disciplined or secure it was by accepted standards.
I understand that on occasion a firearm might be stolen in a home break in but if it was secured in a gun locker, this wouldn't happen. We need to break the path that allows firearms to be bought legitimately but through whatever means finds their way into the wrong person's hands. None of us what the bad guy to get these weapons, not the police, not me and not you.
California is a good example. At the end of my last read they had non-compliant rifles and magazines for california. That means they either executed a felony modification themselves or executed an illegal interstate transfer without the california legal requirement to process through a Federal Firearms License (FFL) holder. Two felonies at least right there.
After Columbine and Connecticut very little effort was made to find and prosecute the sources of the weapons. Why not? This sounds like the kind of "making the guilty responsible" that should have been done. (and don't even get me started on Fast and Furious) Instead we hear platitudes like "we need to put this behind us".
so what do you do for the 354 other mass shootings this year not done by muslims?
(repeated from above)
(Re: 355) Shooting tracker is provided by a openly biased anti 2ndA sub-reddit, not a factual news source. Their list also does not meet the FBI criteria for "mass shootings".
(new!)
Here is some actual factual data including the FBI definition of a "mass shooting": https://www.fbi.gov/news/stori...
Average of 11.4 active shooter incidents per year. 16.4 in the last 7 years of the study. Median deaths per incident = 2, median wounded = 2. (page 9)
The FBI found that 64 incidents (40.0%) would have been categorized as falling within the new federal definition of “mass killing,” which is defined as “three or more killings in a single incident.” (page 9)
I reject the definition of "mass killing" as 3 individuals, but that is the government's definition. Therefore 64/14 = ~ 5 per year average.
Another interesting quote: "In 63 incidents where the duration of the incident could be ascertained, 44 (70%) of 63 incidents ended in 5 minutes or less, with 23 ending in 2 minutes or less. Even when law enforcement was present or able to respond within minutes, civilians often had to make life and death decisions, and, therefore, should be engaged in training and discussions on decisions they may face." (page 8)
(repeated from above) Consider the following:
"As for the Washington Post’s citing the 350+ mass-shooting statistic, it’s pure unadulterated nonsense. Stephen Gutowski of the Washington Free Beacon reported that only 21 of the 355 shootings on this sub-Reddit thread met the standards for the FBI classification of a mass shooting. Second, some of the incidents on the list aren’t even shootings, as indicated by Mediaite’s Alex Griswold. Here’s one that he found:
A pair of township boys are accused of shooting four others with a pellet gun, police said.
Nobody was seriously hurt by the 11- and 12-year-old boys who shot the pellet gun at them on April 25 in the Twinbrook Village apartment complex, Detective Lt. Kevin Faller said in a statement.
Of course, many publications omitted the fact that they’re citing Reddit."
source: http://hotair.com/archives/201... [hotair.com]
11 and 12 year-olds with a pellet gun is a "mass shooting" ?!?
Thank you for your civil response.
My objection is not to the lack of 100% accuracy, it is the inflation of 21 (yes too many) into 350 (overstatement used by press to invoke an emotional reaction).
While we agree that there a people who should not have access to firearms (or explosives or sharp things or the internet) the hard problem is defining and discovering who should not have them in a way that preserves civil liberties. I have heard no practical non-police-state ideas for that. Given that choice or one of "the real world is free(ish), but you have to accept some risk" I choose risk.
Are lives saved by the unfortunate yet necessary use of violence less valuable than those taken by unjust violence?
A recent hype is the proposed use of "no fly lists". There is no oversight or due process of "no fly" so that is worthless. (No, you did not suggest that, it is an example I am hearing repeatedly from "the media" and our "leaders".) Can we accuse our neighbors of being dangerous or insane as a cause to bar their civil liberties? How about an algorithm deciding their name is "too common" and they must therefore be untrusted? (Which has repeatedly happened to me. "Your name is common. Papers please to prove to the state/TSA/bank you aren't the bad person with your (similar yet not identical) name.")
Shooting tracker is provided by a openly biased anti 2ndA sub-reddit, not a factual news source. Their list also does not meet the FBI criteria for "mass shootings".
Consider the following:
"As for the Washington Post’s citing the 350+ mass-shooting statistic, it’s pure unadulterated nonsense. Stephen Gutowski of the Washington Free Beacon reported that only 21 of the 355 shootings on this sub-Reddit thread met the standards for the FBI classification of a mass shooting. Second, some of the incidents on the list aren’t even shootings, as indicated by Mediaite’s Alex Griswold. Here’s one that he found:
A pair of township boys are accused of shooting four others with a pellet gun, police said.
Nobody was seriously hurt by the 11- and 12-year-old boys who shot the pellet gun at them on April 25 in the Twinbrook Village apartment complex, Detective Lt. Kevin Faller said in a statement.
Of course, many publications omitted the fact that they’re citing Reddit."
source: http://hotair.com/archives/201...
11 and 12 year-olds with a pellet gun is a "mass shooting" ?!?
Continuously re-posting grossly inaccurate information does not make it fact. Even politifact agrees: http://www.politifact.com/trut...
Until that time most of the rest of us will continue to point out how you ARE the problem, not part of the solution.
Illiberal quoting of bad data to claim wrong-think while providing non-factual data, snark remarks, and moral superiority name calling as a rebuttal is the actual problem.
(not intended to be redundant with this: http://yro.slashdot.org/commen... )
While we're on the subject of Reddits, here is one for defensive firearm use: DGU https://www.reddit.com/r/dgu (where they allow and encourage debate, unlike the owners of "shootings tracker":GRC)
www.portknocking.org
Note the encryption/hash of the ports, source IP, and port to be opened.
www.portknocking.org/view/documentation
There is a Perl reference implementation. (GPL'd, of course)
"I am in no way affiliated with this group."
So, what happens to the "ultimate, perfect interface handed down (in unchangalbe form) from we the enlightened" when it comes out of the lab?
The first thing that happens is that icons and buttons are added for "try AOL", "Real", etc. etc. etc. "No no no. We can't have that button there, that's where we are putting the 'sign up for Passport' button."
The second is that the interface is re-engineered to focus the eye upon the marketing of partner products and the interference with "efficient" use of compeditors and/or discouraged products, formats, etc. (.mp3 on XP, anyone?)
If allowing customization is the only way to get rid of all that, then I'd rather be "less productive" on my co-worker's computer 5-10% of the time than consistently annoyed and harassed (by my own computer) 100% of the time.
If Raskin produces the "one true interface" (OTI), let him cast it adrift and see if becomes dominant in a world of choice. Make skins for not only the OSs, but also the major skinnable apps. Encourage others to adopt his OTI by providing help, a free specification, and free license to use it. The OTI should gather a community of developers who want to bring the OTI to everyone.
If not, well, I guess it wasn't that great after all.
> people will go right on happily
:-D
> buying Windows ME.
..."happily buying" WinME?
All with legitimate (with the hologram and everything) licenses?
Linus probably isn't a good example. If Harrison Ford and the top 20 are the only actors making any money, there wouldn't be a movie industry.
:) ) cost money.
People have to make money to live and be happy. I'm not talking about BMWs here, but a decent place to live (and maybe a good computer w/xDSL
There is nothing unclean or inferior about making a living by programming. The goal should be finding a way to program for money while also minimizing wasted duplication of effort and hostile standards which impede humanity's progress as a whole.
I firmly believe that both goals can live together. We just need to educate the Micro$ofts and Intels that it won't hurt them to let us help each other.
There has to be a balance. Open source is the superior way for things that the group need: OS's, model/image tools, APIs, math libraries, languages, etc. That doesn't mean you will be able to find everything you or your company needs. That's where paid programmers come in...
If someone hires me to program something for them, the second question is whether I leave the code with them or can I take it with me to use for the next project. The choice is theirs, but the cost difference is a factor of 3. (no, I'm not talking about their data, just the code to manipulate data of that type in that way)
If I can take it with, nothing prevents me from making the code open source. Of course, if there is no place to put it, no one will find it, and it is effectively the same as if I never wrote it as far as the rest of the software community is concerned.
A large percentage of a typical custom app. is just putting together the pieces. If I am writing AI for a game, I don't "re-invent" fuzzy logic, neural nets, or steering behaviors; I just know how to plug them into the customer's game engine to control their agents. This is the value of the programmer: knowing where to find the already created answer is as least, if not more, important than being able to create the answer from scratch (which costs 5 times as much effort).
The programmer's "artist" will create the next great API or library, but alot of programmers can make alot of money just knowing how to apply it to solve probems. Linus and Eric can make money being artists/leaders and we can make money being engineers. They will (deservedly) make more, but neither of us will be working a McJob.
Isn't $80 for *free* software on a few CDs a little steep? I still remember picking up slackware at the old campus bookstore with 6 CDs (and RedHat was on it, along with other distributions) for $20 only two years ago.