I back up my comments with facts and references you've done neither.
Here's the link, buy it, read it, lets debate it. That is if "one with higher order of thinking" can grasp a 1300+ page book. If not go on and live your life of illusion.
Until you can come up with substance I consider you a waste of time.
Oh BTW here's a quote from your icon Slick Willy about his benefactor; "Rhodes' vision reached beyond his own mortality,"
-Cecil Rhodes "... somehow, we find it hard to sell our values, namely that the rich should plunder the poor."
Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first prize in the lottery of life.
"We must find new lands from which we can easily obtain raw materials and at the same time exploit the cheap slave labor that is available from the natives of the colonies. The colonies would also provide a dumping ground for the surplus goods produced in our factories."
Again you show your ignorance and lack of substance in your statement. It is easy to sit on that ivory throne and pass judgment. You ignore facts and draw your own conclusion with that holier than thou attitude with out ever having to sacrifice anything.
"unlike you I have higher order thinking powers"
I assisted in the liberation of a country, what did you do? Speculate and condemn with out ever having to leave your air-conditioned 3 meals a day existence. Watch that 21 inch peep hole to paradise and believe what they feed you. No my friend go ahead and believe what you will, bury your head in the sand and hope it will go away. I pity you for the fool you are.
"You held them responsible by destroying their water treatment and power facilities, roads, bridges and hospitals"
Fool, that's war. But again I state that people like you are always too free with authorizing a "Police Action" because you don't have to do it. But the politically correct term does not hide the reality of what it is. Death, destruction, and horror. It's to be avoided, but no, you'd rather authorize a "Police Action".
"Start with inspections, they were going along just fine"
What a fool, UN resolution 1441 acknowledged they were a failure. That's why the UN voted passed 1441, check your facts.
"If thhey did not succeed then maybe assassination of the top leaders"
Hypocrite, that's violation of international law. Again you speak out of pure ignorance and sense of reality.
"When you were there killing people did you also rape 13 year old boys?"
My God you're a fool, still again I'm skeptical about you being a Vet with comments like this.
"I was in the Air Force. We were allowed to think."
That's why most of high tech work is done by civilian contractors? I've worked with the Air Force a bit, both as a Marine and civilian.
"What do you get when you cross a marine and an ape? A dump ape"
Yep, you have no basis of facts to stand on so here it comes.
"once again. Unlike you the dumb ape I have higher order thinking powers. I can think of more then just two possibilities."
Yes bury your head and hope it all goes away. We don't care if the butcher continues violating the cease fire agreement. We don't care if he invaded, raped, pillage, and conducted a scorched earth policy. Why? Because we have a higher order of thinking. I think you should change from Malcontent to Nevil Chamberlin.
"You really think nobody in the world has computers they can sell to china"
I was giving an example of how Slick Willy gave up out technical edge. How he was in bed with China after accusing the first Bush of being to close to China. Let's look at what I posted
"NY TIMES of April 4, 1998, Jeff Gerth with Raymond Bonner exposed a manipulation wherein the US government and 2 major American arms companies transferred Ballistic Missile technology to China. As a Grand Jury was investigating whether 2 American companies (Loral Space & Communications and Hughes Electronics) gave China space expertise that significantly advanced Beijing's ballistic missile program, President Clinton approved of this transfer 2 months ago"
I think that's a little more than a few computers! And you don't think they provide this tech to dictators in countries like N. Korea?
"The size of the overall govt shrank. If he took it out of the military then great."
Again the facts elude you, the Military cuts were started with the Bush administration and continued through the Clinton administration. I enjoy how you keep ignoring the facts and spewing nothing but your own version of reality.
"Besides the Clinton military did a great job in Iraq didn't it?"
They did a great job in spite of 8 years of Slick Willy
"Ronnie had a mental disease. he was an imbecile"
Again you ignore the facts, let me enlighten you with a few facts. Unlike specul
"I see that I am dealing with a person of very low morality"
Where do you get this from a statement of war is to be avoided and only used as a last resort? Come on you nothing to stand on here. You my friend are sitting on an ivory throne passing judgement based on ignorance.
"If your only goal was to remove Iraqis from Kuwait you would have stopped when they were beaten back."
We did as per the cease fire agreement in 91, voilations of that agreement and UN resolution 1441 gave the authority. So what would you do, bury your head and hope Saddam becomes a man of peace? Wake up and come back to earth.
"There would be no reason to bomb Bagdhad"
So Bill Clinton had no justification either?
"There certainly was no reason to puporfully target civillian infrastructre like water treatment plants and power generation plants"
Okay if you're talking about the 91 war, it's war. Like I keep stating war is to be avoided and used only as a last resort. Come on you're really starting to loose it here. Do you even have the concept of war? Problem with people like you is you're always quick to approve a "Police Action" and think that it's quick and clean. No it's not, it's messy, bloody and horrific, that is why it is to be avoided.
"No I did not say that. I said that you held them responsible by bombing the shit out of them and making them suffer for over a decade."
I never stated that I held the Iraqi people responsible. The ones responsible are Saddam and his butchers. So what would your solution have been?
"Who held you responsible for your actions? "
The Kuwaiti who hugged me when they got thier country back. Who held you resonsible for your lack of action? What would your solution be, nothing? Give me a solution. Problem with people like you is you have no solution, you hold a holier than thou attitude and criticize. You cannot come up with a viable solution other than to pass judgement and condem.
"Fuck you pompous bastard. First of all I am a veteran too"
With the comments like all of my army buddies and when our bloodlust is satisfied.... I am highly sceptical that you are a veteran. If you are one you'd know that we're the last ones that want to go to war.
"Lucky for me I got out before I had to kill for oil"
You're so ignorant to think that's all it was about. And like I keep stating you weren't there, you're nothing more than an arm chair quarterback. You are the pompous bastard to pass judgement on people who put their life on the line. I base my opinions on first hand knowledge, you seem to base yours on ignorance.
"which meand lining the pockets of american corporations run by buddies of george bush."
And less we forget Al Gore and others. I may be wrong but I get the impression you think I'm a fan of George and his father. I'm not, I distrust them both. But my opinions are not based on party politics. I highly distrust both parties, they're both crooks. This is why I believe we need to limit the power of governemnt.
"You said it. you justified the war because of 9/11. You brought it up"
I didn't clarify myself, my intent was to be an example of how we've buried out heads in the sand. The consequences of inaction and not dealing with the problem. Launching a few cruise missles do nothing.
"If he still has it then he WILL you use it. Before he might have held it in check as a threat now there is no reason to hold back. If you are right then this was is the biggest debacle in the history of mankind"
So I take it from this comment you support doing nothing? Bury our heads in the sand and hope it will go away? That sure did Europe alot of good in the 30's didn't it. Look at history, buying off the aggressor ends in your distruction. History is paved by the bones of fools. Come on give me a solution to what you think should have been done?
"Kosovo, Somolia, Congo, Peace huh?" Better then what we have now. Much bette
"Many many people died in iraq. I don't know where you get the idea that it was only the people responsible getting punished"
Many people die in war, that is why it is only to be used as a last resort and to be avoided.
"When you went over there to "hold them responsible" you and your comrades in arms destroyed power plants, water treatment facilities, communication facilites and all kinds of civillian infrastructre."
First of all we went over to remove them from Kuwait, and we did. Were you there to see first hand the rape of Kuwait by Iraq? Have you looked into the eyes of a Kuwaiti worrying about is family in Kuwait City? No? I have. I think I have a little bit of first hand experiance here. Until you're there eating, sleeping, and fighting along side these people your comments show your speculation and ignorance of the matter.
"Again I pointed out that you and your army buddies punished the entire iraqi people. Where did you draw the line? You didn't. You punished an entire country for decades for invading kuwait. But you yourself escaped punishment. I guess I draw the line in the same place that you did. That is I don't draw the line"
First of all I was not in the Army, I was a Marine (there is a difference). Second of all as per the agreement of the cease fire Saddam violated them, the responsiblity is on his shoulders. If he would of complied with the cease fire and UN resolution this would not have happened. If we had done something earlier it wouldn't have gone this far. With your reasoning people should not be held accountable? A country invades another then gets their butt kicked, they then make agreements for a cease fire. But when they don't abide by the cease fire or treaty you do nothing? All I can say is ignorance is bliss.
"When is your bloodlust going to be fulfilled"
I've shead blood for my country, what have you done? I've fought along side people liberating their country, what have you done? It's arrogant to believe people who serve in the military, or have served are blood thursty war mongers. We are the last ones who want to go to war, it's our blood that is spilled. This statement again shows ignorance of reality.
"Was that enough of a reason to invade and occupy?"
Yes it was, the continued violation of the weapons, biological and chemical programs are. Launching a couple of cruise missles from time to time do nothing. I do not support just going and invading every little dictatorship or anyone we disagree with. But based on the Cease Fire of 91, and the UN resolutions we have the justification. Until you have privy to classified information and you have been there with the people themselves, you are doing nothing but being an arm chair quarterback.
"If your threshold of invading is that low then god hep the rest of the world. In the mean time of course there are millions of people suffering under insane conditions while we stand by do nothing"
Neville Chamberlain really prevented WWII didn't he? Yes there are millions of people who suffer in the world. This is a wake up call for those piss ant dictators who slaughter their people for thier own perverted kicks. If you sit around and do nothing they will continue their actions because they know no one will do anything. Slick Willy really prevented N. Korea from developing Nukes by buying them off didn't he? Wake up! Reality what a concept.
"You didn't read my example. In my example the liberterians control the govt"
But my point has always been their influence, not control. You're missing my whole point, the point has been the 2 parties are so alike we need another point of view and thought process. They both are out of control and need to come back to reality and common sense. Stop trying to legislate morality and what we think.
"I guess it sucks that they don't have oil"
We get most of our oil from S. America, not the Middle East. We also have huge untapped oil reserves. Europe gets a majority of
"This is exactly what I am saying. There are layers and percentages of responsiblity. The problem is that the iraqis were living in a dictatorship and you are living in a democracy. For that reason alone they (the common iraqui) shares less of the blame then you."
Right, and the ones reasponsible are being held accountable, they are the focus and reason for the action that is being taken"
"You on the other hand have not been held responsible for your portion of the blame yet"
We could use the same argument to say that you're responsible for the deaths in Africa, because the relief sent by the UN for the people was used to feed the rebel factions. Taking the same stance we should hold miner acountable for the death of the child because he mined the iron, that was used to make the brass, that was used make the bullet, that was used to shoot the child. My question is where do you draw the line? We need to start applying some common sense here.
"Yes we can and we do all the time. Not only do we stand by but frequently we agitate and instigate. Look at what we did in shouth and central America. Where do you get the notion that we can't just stand by and do nothing from? What did we do in Chile? Argentina? El Salvador?"
The Europeans in Africa, Middle East, S.America. The Cubans in Angola, China in Indonesia. Lets go back further, Turks, Romans, Greeks, Mongols, etc..ect.. Less we cannot forget the African Chiefs who sold their rivals to the slavers. I'm not justifying just stating a fact.
"Honestly where did you get that idea from? Where in history does it show that we can't just stand by"
There's a hole in NYC might be a small reason for us to take action. Also 12 years of violation of the cease fire from the 91 Gulf war. As for history, Neville Chamberlain comes to mind. Having first hand knowledge of the Middle East after living and working with them for close to a year this is my observation. A majority of them are like us, they want to get up, work, feed their family and live their life in peace. There are factions though (and alot of them) who hate anything western, they will do anything to destroy us. They're to Islam what the KKK is to Christianity. Another example in history is Germany, then there is Europe of the Middle Ages when the church controlled the state. This becomes a large problem when zealots control the government, or the governement uses them to strike other cultures. Take for example Afghanistan good friend of mine just got back from a relief project there (civilian not military). You don't see much in the media the common man there praising our actions and showing their appriciation for getting rid of the zealots there.
"Let's pretend the US govt went all liberterian at the next election"
Like I stated before I am not liberterian, I think it would be a good idea to have a little more of their influence in governement. I do not advocate a pure liberterian form of government, nor do I advocate a pure 100% democratic one. The US is a Federalist Republic which I believe in, to the extent that I spent 10 years putting my life on the line for it. We need to swing things back into the center again. I believe the current state is getting out of hand. As per the example I gave where the law in Washington state everyone, including people in the car have to show ID because one person is buying it. If that person is buying for the minor hold them accountable, not the person who sold it, or brewed the beer. Hold the person accountable whos action committed the ilegal act.
"You sue the water company for delivering toxic water and they say "you can't prove it's us because you could have breathed the stuff or gotten it through contact". "
Now you're thinking on my wave length. The obscene power the lawyers have in our country is out of control (BTW almost all of our elected government officials are lawyers). They spin things like "It's not my fault that I shot the clerk in the stick up, it's the gun man
"The fact remains nobody can get elected to the presidency while advocating those things"
I agree with you here. The point in my rant here was showing the hypocrisy of it all.
"If you think it's bad now then you should definately abandon the liberterian party. Under the liberterian party it would multiply by a thousandfold. In the liberterian philosophy all arguments are settled by civil action"
I also need to clarify that I am not a liberterian. I just think we need to get a few more of them into office to offset the 2 party system we have now.
"You (that's you specifically) share some blame for the deaths of tens of thousands of iraqis"
To some extent, but they also share some responsiblity for the action of the extreme factions they allow to flourish in their society. I myself have first hand experiance in this matter. I served my time 90-91 in the Gulf, I worked very close with the Arabs while I was there. I have no ill feelings twords them what so ever. But I take issue with the hard core militants. Whe cannot bury our heads in the sand and do nothing, history will back up that point of view. Thus back to the statement of holding people accountable for their actions, we can't fix all the problems in the world. We can though start somewhere and hold people accountable. If someone dumps toxic waste, hold the people acountable who are responsible. You cannot hold the person who bought the sneakers responsible for the plant manager dumping toxic waste in the river. Let's be real and apply some common sense here.
Lets get some of their influence into government at least. The reason why the election was so close this last go around is that the two parties are so becoming alike. As for legalizing gambling? It's state controlled per the lottery. As for Prostitution what's wrong with it? If there is any legal precedent you can't get any better than Roe V Wade. Europe has it right tax it, regulate it and keep it in the red light districts. In the US we have the illusion of freedom. Take for example California where it's illegal to smoke in any public places, including bars. The state of Washington if you buy any tobacco products or alcohol everyone in your group has to show ID to insure you're not buying for a minor. So what happens when I pick up a six-pack for a barbeque with my brother and I just happen to have my underage niece with me? What ever happened to holding people accountable for their actions and not becoming the thought police?
As for suing everyone, they already have for a long time. It really started getting out of control when it started with the anti gun lobby suing the gun manufactures. Then it was tobacco, now it's fast food. The only ones getting rich are the lawyers, wait hold on, and most of the politicians are lawyers... MMMMMMMMMMM Let's start holding people accountable for their own actions and stop trying to create a thought police.
Okay, end of rant. But seriously it might not be a bad thing to get a few of Libertarians into office to inject some of their ideas and we can swing government back into reality.
Slashdot Mirror
I second that!
"If the government starts printing lots of money to cover a big cash payment to millions of people inflation would run wild"
Example: Germany after WWI
I back up my comments with facts and references you've done neither.
0 X/ newworldorderint/ref=nosim/102-6791302-4250556
Here's the link, buy it, read it, lets debate it. That is if "one with higher order of thinking" can grasp a 1300+ page book. If not go on and live your life of illusion.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/09450011
Until you can come up with substance I consider you a waste of time.
Oh BTW here's a quote from your icon Slick Willy about his benefactor;
"Rhodes' vision reached beyond his own mortality,"
-Cecil Rhodes
"... somehow, we find it hard to sell our values, namely that the rich should plunder the poor."
Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first prize in the lottery of life.
"We must find new lands from which we can easily obtain raw materials and at the same time exploit the cheap slave labor that is available from the natives of the colonies. The colonies would also provide a dumping ground for the surplus goods produced in our factories."
One final resonse for you Nevil
You continue to resort to profainity and will not present any facts.
"It is better to be silent and thought of as a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"
"Only after commiting war crimes"
Again you show your ignorance and lack of substance in your statement. It is easy to sit on that ivory throne and pass judgment. You ignore facts and draw your own conclusion with that holier than thou attitude with out ever having to sacrifice anything.
"unlike you I have higher order thinking powers"
I assisted in the liberation of a country, what did you do? Speculate and condemn with out ever having to leave your air-conditioned 3 meals a day existence. Watch that 21 inch peep hole to paradise and believe what they feed you. No my friend go ahead and believe what you will, bury your head in the sand and hope it will go away. I pity you for the fool you are.
"You held them responsible by destroying their water treatment and power facilities, roads, bridges and hospitals"
Fool, that's war. But again I state that people like you are always too free with authorizing a "Police Action" because you don't have to do it. But the politically correct term does not hide the reality of what it is. Death, destruction, and horror. It's to be avoided, but no, you'd rather authorize a "Police Action".
"Start with inspections, they were going along just fine"
What a fool, UN resolution 1441 acknowledged they were a failure. That's why the UN voted passed 1441, check your facts.
"If thhey did not succeed then maybe assassination of the top leaders"
Hypocrite, that's violation of international law. Again you speak out of pure ignorance and sense of reality.
"When you were there killing people did you also rape 13 year old boys?"
My God you're a fool, still again I'm skeptical about you being a Vet with comments like this.
"I was in the Air Force. We were allowed to think."
That's why most of high tech work is done by civilian contractors? I've worked with the Air Force a bit, both as a Marine and civilian.
"What do you get when you cross a marine and an ape? A dump ape"
Yep, you have no basis of facts to stand on so here it comes.
"once again. Unlike you the dumb ape I have higher order thinking powers. I can think of more then just two possibilities."
Yes bury your head and hope it all goes away. We don't care if the butcher continues violating the cease fire agreement. We don't care if he invaded, raped, pillage, and conducted a scorched earth policy. Why? Because we have a higher order of thinking. I think you should change from Malcontent to Nevil Chamberlin.
"You really think nobody in the world has computers they can sell to china"
I was giving an example of how Slick Willy gave up out technical edge. How he was in bed with China after accusing the first Bush of being to close to China. Let's look at what I posted
"NY TIMES of April 4, 1998, Jeff Gerth with Raymond Bonner exposed a manipulation wherein the US government and 2 major American arms companies transferred Ballistic Missile technology to China. As a Grand Jury was investigating whether 2 American companies (Loral Space & Communications and Hughes Electronics) gave China space expertise that significantly advanced Beijing's ballistic missile program, President Clinton approved of this transfer 2 months ago"
I think that's a little more than a few computers!
And you don't think they provide this tech to dictators in countries like N. Korea?
"The size of the overall govt shrank. If he took it out of the military then great."
Again the facts elude you, the Military cuts were started with the Bush administration and continued through the Clinton administration. I enjoy how you keep ignoring the facts and spewing nothing but your own version of reality.
"Besides the Clinton military did a great job in Iraq didn't it?"
They did a great job in spite of 8 years of Slick Willy
"Ronnie had a mental disease. he was an imbecile"
Again you ignore the facts, let me enlighten you with a few facts. Unlike specul
"I see that I am dealing with a person of very low morality"
Where do you get this from a statement of war is to be avoided and only used as a last resort? Come on you nothing to stand on here. You my friend are sitting on an ivory throne passing judgement based on ignorance.
"If your only goal was to remove Iraqis from Kuwait you would have stopped when they were beaten back."
We did as per the cease fire agreement in 91, voilations of that agreement and UN resolution 1441 gave the authority. So what would you do, bury your head and hope Saddam becomes a man of peace? Wake up and come back to earth.
"There would be no reason to bomb Bagdhad"
So Bill Clinton had no justification either?
"There certainly was no reason to puporfully target civillian infrastructre like water treatment plants and power generation plants"
Okay if you're talking about the 91 war, it's war. Like I keep stating war is to be avoided and used only as a last resort. Come on you're really starting to loose it here. Do you even have the concept of war? Problem with people like you is you're always quick to approve a "Police Action" and think that it's quick and clean. No it's not, it's messy, bloody and horrific, that is why it is to be avoided.
"No I did not say that. I said that you held them responsible by bombing the shit out of them and making them suffer for over a decade."
I never stated that I held the Iraqi people responsible. The ones responsible are Saddam and his butchers. So what would your solution have been?
"Who held you responsible for your actions? "
The Kuwaiti who hugged me when they got thier country back.
Who held you resonsible for your lack of action?
What would your solution be, nothing? Give me a solution. Problem with people like you is you have no solution, you hold a holier than thou attitude and criticize. You cannot come up with a viable solution other than to pass judgement and condem.
"Fuck you pompous bastard. First of all I am a veteran too"
With the comments like all of my army buddies and when our bloodlust is satisfied.... I am highly sceptical that you are a veteran. If you are one you'd know that we're the last ones that want to go to war.
"Lucky for me I got out before I had to kill for oil"
You're so ignorant to think that's all it was about. And like I keep stating you weren't there, you're nothing more than an arm chair quarterback. You are the pompous bastard to pass judgement on people who put their life on the line. I base my opinions on first hand knowledge, you seem to base yours on ignorance.
"which meand lining the pockets of american corporations run by buddies of george bush."
And less we forget Al Gore and others. I may be wrong but I get the impression you think I'm a fan of George and his father. I'm not, I distrust them both. But my opinions are not based on party politics. I highly distrust both parties, they're both crooks. This is why I believe we need to limit the power of governemnt.
"You said it. you justified the war because of 9/11. You brought it up"
I didn't clarify myself, my intent was to be an example of how we've buried out heads in the sand. The consequences of inaction and not dealing with the problem. Launching a few cruise missles do nothing.
"If he still has it then he WILL you use it. Before he might have held it in check as a threat now there is no reason to hold back. If you are right then this was is the biggest debacle in the history of mankind"
So I take it from this comment you support doing nothing? Bury our heads in the sand and hope it will go away? That sure did Europe alot of good in the 30's didn't it. Look at history, buying off the aggressor ends in your distruction. History is paved by the bones of fools.
Come on give me a solution to what you think should have been done?
"Kosovo, Somolia, Congo, Peace huh?"
Better then what we have now. Much bette
"Many many people died in iraq. I don't know where you get the idea that it was only the people responsible getting punished"
Many people die in war, that is why it is only to be used as a last resort and to be avoided.
"When you went over there to "hold them responsible" you and your comrades in arms destroyed power plants, water treatment facilities, communication facilites and all kinds of civillian infrastructre."
First of all we went over to remove them from Kuwait, and we did. Were you there to see first hand the rape of Kuwait by Iraq? Have you looked into the eyes of a Kuwaiti worrying about is family in Kuwait City? No? I have. I think I have a little bit of first hand experiance here. Until you're there eating, sleeping, and fighting along side these people your comments show your speculation and ignorance of the matter.
"Again I pointed out that you and your army buddies punished the entire iraqi people. Where did you draw the line? You didn't. You punished an entire country for decades for invading kuwait. But you yourself escaped punishment. I guess I draw the line in the same place that you did. That is I don't draw the line"
First of all I was not in the Army, I was a Marine (there is a difference). Second of all as per the agreement of the cease fire Saddam violated them, the responsiblity is on his shoulders. If he would of complied with the cease fire and UN resolution this would not have happened. If we had done something earlier it wouldn't have gone this far.
With your reasoning people should not be held accountable? A country invades another then gets their butt kicked, they then make agreements for a cease fire. But when they don't abide by the cease fire or treaty you do nothing? All I can say is ignorance is bliss.
"When is your bloodlust going to be fulfilled"
I've shead blood for my country, what have you done? I've fought along side people liberating their country, what have you done? It's arrogant to believe people who serve in the military, or have served are blood thursty war mongers. We are the last ones who want to go to war, it's our blood that is spilled. This statement again shows ignorance of reality.
"Was that enough of a reason to invade and occupy?"
Yes it was, the continued violation of the weapons, biological and chemical programs are. Launching a couple of cruise missles from time to time do nothing. I do not support just going and invading every little dictatorship or anyone we disagree with. But based on the Cease Fire of 91, and the UN resolutions we have the justification. Until you have privy to classified information and you have been there with the people themselves, you are doing nothing but being an arm chair quarterback.
"If your threshold of invading is that low then god hep the rest of the world. In the mean time of course there are millions of people suffering under insane conditions while we stand by do nothing"
Neville Chamberlain really prevented WWII didn't he? Yes there are millions of people who suffer in the world. This is a wake up call for those piss ant dictators who slaughter their people for thier own perverted kicks. If you sit around and do nothing they will continue their actions because they know no one will do anything. Slick Willy really prevented N. Korea from developing Nukes by buying them off didn't he? Wake up! Reality what a concept.
"You didn't read my example. In my example the liberterians control the govt"
But my point has always been their influence, not control. You're missing my whole point, the point has been the 2 parties are so alike we need another point of view and thought process. They both are out of control and need to come back to reality and common sense. Stop trying to legislate morality and what we think.
"I guess it sucks that they don't have oil"
We get most of our oil from S. America, not the Middle East. We also have huge untapped oil reserves. Europe gets a majority of
"This is exactly what I am saying. There are layers and percentages of responsiblity. The problem is that the iraqis were living in a dictatorship and you are living in a democracy. For that reason alone they (the common iraqui) shares less of the blame then you."
Right, and the ones reasponsible are being held accountable, they are the focus and reason for the action that is being taken"
"You on the other hand have not been held responsible for your portion of the blame yet"
We could use the same argument to say that you're responsible for the deaths in Africa, because the relief sent by the UN for the people was used to feed the rebel factions. Taking the same stance we should hold miner acountable for the death of the child because he mined the iron, that was used to make the brass, that was used make the bullet, that was used to shoot the child. My question is where do you draw the line? We need to start applying some common sense here.
"Yes we can and we do all the time. Not only do we stand by but frequently we agitate and instigate. Look at what we did in shouth and central America. Where do you get the notion that we can't just stand by and do nothing from? What did we do in Chile? Argentina? El Salvador?"
The Europeans in Africa, Middle East, S.America. The Cubans in Angola, China in Indonesia. Lets go back further, Turks, Romans, Greeks, Mongols, etc..ect.. Less we cannot forget the African Chiefs who sold their rivals to the slavers.
I'm not justifying just stating a fact.
"Honestly where did you get that idea from? Where in history does it show that we can't just stand by"
There's a hole in NYC might be a small reason for us to take action. Also 12 years of violation of the cease fire from the 91 Gulf war. As for history, Neville Chamberlain comes to mind. Having first hand knowledge of the Middle East after living and working with them for close to a year this is my observation. A majority of them are like us, they want to get up, work, feed their family and live their life in peace. There are factions though (and alot of them) who hate anything western, they will do anything to destroy us. They're to Islam what the KKK is to Christianity. Another example in history is Germany, then there is Europe of the Middle Ages when the church controlled the state. This becomes a large problem when zealots control the government, or the governement uses them to strike other cultures. Take for example Afghanistan good friend of mine just got back from a relief project there (civilian not military). You don't see much in the media the common man there praising our actions and showing their appriciation for getting rid of the zealots there.
"Let's pretend the US govt went all liberterian at the next election"
Like I stated before I am not liberterian, I think it would be a good idea to have a little more of their influence in governement. I do not advocate a pure liberterian form of government, nor do I advocate a pure 100% democratic one. The US is a Federalist Republic which I believe in, to the extent that I spent 10 years putting my life on the line for it. We need to swing things back into the center again. I believe the current state is getting out of hand. As per the example I gave where the law in Washington state everyone, including people in the car have to show ID because one person is buying it. If that person is buying for the minor hold them accountable, not the person who sold it, or brewed the beer. Hold the person accountable whos action committed the ilegal act.
"You sue the water company for delivering toxic water and they say "you can't prove it's us because you could have breathed the stuff or gotten it through contact". "
Now you're thinking on my wave length. The obscene power the lawyers have in our country is out of control (BTW almost all of our elected government officials are lawyers). They spin things like "It's not my fault that I shot the clerk in the stick up, it's the gun man
"The fact remains nobody can get elected to the presidency while advocating those things"
I agree with you here. The point in my rant here was showing the hypocrisy of it all.
"If you think it's bad now then you should definately abandon the liberterian party. Under the liberterian party it would multiply by a thousandfold. In the liberterian philosophy all arguments are settled by civil action"
I also need to clarify that I am not a liberterian. I just think we need to get a few more of them into office to offset the 2 party system we have now.
"You (that's you specifically) share some blame for the deaths of tens of thousands of iraqis"
To some extent, but they also share some responsiblity for the action of the extreme factions they allow to flourish in their society. I myself have first hand experiance in this matter. I served my time 90-91 in the Gulf, I worked very close with the Arabs while I was there. I have no ill feelings twords them what so ever. But I take issue with the hard core militants. Whe cannot bury our heads in the sand and do nothing, history will back up that point of view. Thus back to the statement of holding people accountable for their actions, we can't fix all the problems in the world. We can though start somewhere and hold people accountable. If someone dumps toxic waste, hold the people acountable who are responsible. You cannot hold the person who bought the sneakers responsible for the plant manager dumping toxic waste in the river. Let's be real and apply some common sense here.
Lets get some of their influence into government at least. The reason why the election was so close this last go around is that the two parties are so becoming alike. As for legalizing gambling? It's state controlled per the lottery. As for Prostitution what's wrong with it? If there is any legal precedent you can't get any better than Roe V Wade. Europe has it right tax it, regulate it and keep it in the red light districts. In the US we have the illusion of freedom. Take for example California where it's illegal to smoke in any public places, including bars. The state of Washington if you buy any tobacco products or alcohol everyone in your group has to show ID to insure you're not buying for a minor. So what happens when I pick up a six-pack for a barbeque with my brother and I just happen to have my underage niece with me? What ever happened to holding people accountable for their actions and not becoming the thought police? As for suing everyone, they already have for a long time. It really started getting out of control when it started with the anti gun lobby suing the gun manufactures. Then it was tobacco, now it's fast food. The only ones getting rich are the lawyers, wait hold on, and most of the politicians are lawyers... MMMMMMMMMMM Let's start holding people accountable for their own actions and stop trying to create a thought police. Okay, end of rant. But seriously it might not be a bad thing to get a few of Libertarians into office to inject some of their ideas and we can swing government back into reality.