Perhaps you should have been trying to switch classes instead. Both Sun and IBMs JVM are rather verbose when it comes to dealing with that sort of thing. Sounds like you don't even have the most basic of troubleshooting skills, which pretty much entirely precludes you from doing any sort of useful programming.
Going to collage for CS doesn't mean you know what you're doing, which seems to be your confusion.
I can drive a car, but I don't try to pretend I'm a race car driver. Not everyone who 'can do something' are actually talented at it. Most of us are just good enough to get along in the daily life and too stupid to realize thats where our talent ends.
I've been to several dancing classes and I still suck at it. Not everyone can be a dancer no matter what 'education' they get on it.
I know for a fact that a education in CS will make you a better programmer. It can't make a non-programmer a programmer, but it will make any programmer better than they would be without it.
Everything you said in your post can be summed up to 'not everyone is a programmer, even though they might think they are', you included.
Until you realize that you're speeding up the heat death of the universe by 10%. At that point, the perceived cost savings isn't so much a savings... is it? Thats right, I said it, by using Java you're bringing about an early end to the universe as we know it.
Note: I'm probably writing Java code as you read this.
Which means the OS won't actually allocate it, and no REAL memory will be used. It'll just take up some TLB cache somewhere and thats it.
If your OS is too stupid to not allocate unused pages, I really can't see the problem. (For reference, I've written OSes for microcontrollers that are that stupid)
Actually, memory management in java is HARDER since you have no control over it.
Its cute that you think its easier, but the less control you have, the harder it becomes.
You speak as someone who has exactly 0 practical experience programming. Dealing with shitty weak reference issues in java is an obnoxious pain in the ass that is entirely avoided in non GC languages, but you go ahead and pretend you know what you're talking about.
You do realize that an if statement, a while/for loop and any other branch is the exact same thing as a GOTO, right.
Whenever I see some moron ranting about GOTOs I just have to start laughing. When people rant about GOTO its because they have absolutely 0 idea how everything works under the hood and are doing nothing other than spewing out what someone else on the Internet said about GOTOs.
GOTO isn't bad, only idiots like yourself who don't have a fucking clue what you're doing using it improperly make it bad. The reason everyone tells you its evil is because you aren't' competent enough to understand its proper usage so its better off for the rest of us if you just don't use it than it is for us trying to get you to use it properly.
You might have been taught in the 70s, but you were taught wrong. If you have some sort of retarded self block against using GOTOs, then you are a shitty programmer. They have a time and place where they fit better than anything else.
Perhaps if you understood how things like try {} catch {} finally {} actually worked, you wouldn't make such ignorant statements. GOTOs are everywhere in your code, you're just to ignorant to realize it.
You fail to understand the problem because you are a programmer.
Programmers care not about the language, the language is simply an end to a means. A programmer can write code in any language because the language is unimportant, the logic that the programmer can visualize is whats important, and that can be implemented in almost all useful languages, certainly any we're talking about here.
The people you see talking bad about cobol are people who are not programmers, they are people who (may) write code in a given language. Plenty of idiots 'write code' in a given language, in fact most of the development in the world happens this way. Programmers on the other hand, write code in any language. Most people who write code are not programmers. The instant someone starts talking about how awesome their language is or how much some other language sucks, you can almost instantly write them off as a newbie non-programmer who has been shown how to write a few lines of code, but they have no actual understanding of the process.
I've never written a single line of cobol, but I'd bet a paycheck that I could write reasonably efficient cobol code in the course of one pay period. I am a programmer, I write code, I care not what the language is, I care about the logic and math. Everyone else is just a code monkey.
The fact that you're using an arbitrary measurement shows you're complete lack of understanding of programming.
How the fuck did this get marked as insightful? I can write an entire java application, a non-trivial one at that, with a SINGLE ( as in wc -l returns 1 on the single file in the project) line of code. Could do it with python as well, and perl, probably ruby too, PHP for sure, C/C++/C#/Objective C for certain... in fact, other than VB, I can't think of a language I can't do it all on one line. Not saying they don't exist, but just pointing out that counting lines of code is such a silly concept, anyone that understands whats going on has a hard time grasping why you would consider counting them in the first place.
Using lines of code is an instant indicator of 'not having the slightest clue what so ever' when referring to any non-whitespace sensitive language, and most others as well.
Counting lines of code is only useful in a relative form, as in, counting lines of code YOU personally produced this month compared to last month, and even then lines of change are more indicative than new lines, but both are shitty metrics without context.
No programmer counts lines of code, only bad managers.
I've developed applications which have > 10k users in the following languages:
C/C++ ASP ASP.NET (C#) VB6 Java PHP
While my prefered language for getting 'real work' done is C/C++. Over the years I've learned that the only real reason Java applications suck is because Java is easy to deal with (Like VB) so it brings in a metric fuckton of really shitty managers who think they are developers... who write REALLY REALLY REALLY shitty apps.
Until about 3 years ago, you would not catch a shitty PoS java app on my machine, slow bloating piles of crap...
Then I was forced to write a java servlet because I needed a good SVG renderer, and Batik is about the only one that doesn't suck ass.
From that experience I learned that Java indeed IS nice, and the JVM (on Windows and OS X at least) is pretty damn impressive (not perfect, but still impressive). I quickly learned that writing fast, quick to load Java apps is really trivial. In fact, they only way I can make a Java app suck is by doing things that I would never allow to be committed to a revision control system I'm in charge of. I am currently incapable of writing a 'slow bloated java app'. It takes me EFFORT to make Java suck. When you see a shitty Java app, you are seeing truely inexperienced programmers who have done things SO AMAZINGLY wrong that you really shouldn't consider them programmers. They aren't, they are just people who wrote some java code.
It's sad that it takes 16GB of RAM just to compile a build of Android. And the funny thing is it kills the whole point of Android being "open". What person has 16GB of RAM on the off chance that they might wanna compile an Android build?
So Open Street Maps isn't Open because I only have 5 gigs of ram in the machine I want to use to process their massive map database into image tiles? I'll have to let them know, here I was, I thought it was just mean for not meeting the requirements of processing a REALLY LARGE complex system that requires extensive optimization in order to actually be useful.
I'm sorry, this is just silly. Open doesn't mean you can use it, it means there are no arbitrary exclusions or inclusions. Open doesn't mean 'meant for everyone and everything for 0 cost'. I'm sorry you're idea of open has been tainted by GPL fanboys, but reality is a little different than what you think it is. Its not my fault you don't have enough RAM to build a system as complex as Android. I say that as what I can only describe as an 'android hater'. I REALLY want to use it for a couple projects, but its just not up to my requirements for lag free operation... none the less, its really fucking retarded to call it 'not open' because you can't afford the build requirements.
Finally, its fairly trivial to build on less than 16GB of ram, as long as you don't mind waiting a while... you do know what swap is for, right? I'm sorry you don't understand how things work in the real world, but you don't actually have anything to complain about here.
If you want a shining example of COBOL web apps... www.irs.gov
Some of the most important web apps in the entire world run on COBOL. And for reference, Facebook is in no way 'important'. That little bit of perspective might be a good start for you.
Its so cute how newbies think they know so much about technology yet your lack of experience and wisdom makes you so... funny to watch.
Loose the arrogance and learn yourself some history, trust me, you'll save yourself so much freaking time its not even a little bit funny.
For a crowd of computer dorks who know all too well the ups and downs of the software development lifecycle, we here on/. sure do like to play dumb...
Well, the problem is, slashdot is no longer the site frequented by those who know what they are doing. Judging by the articles over the past year, even more so since Taco left, slashdot is trying to be just another mainstream site with a tech focus.
You pretty much have to write off about 2/3rds of the user base (anyone with a UID over 1 million) as a high schooler without a clue. Sure there are the occasional high UIDs that aren't idiots because they JUST created an account or lost an older one, but for the most part, anyone above UID 1 million is just your average Joe who read something on the Internet and think they are a developer/sysadmin/netadmin/engineer/astrophysicist.
Yes it does. Support stops at the very moment you buy the phone. From that point on, they want to sell you the next phone, the only way you'll buy the next phone is if yours dies or the next one has some feature you don't have. If they give you all the software features, you won't upgrade. Its not even a little bit complex.
Apple does the same thing. I say that as an iPhone 4s owner. The only reason I bought it over a cheaper 4 is Siri. The camera is another good reason, but its not that big of a deal. So while Apple gives my older phones updates, they also intentionally leave out things to give you a reason to buy a new device.
Interestingly enough, Apple, while basically holding back things they could give older phones they STILL provide better updates and less BS than Android devices.
Let me give you guys a hint, when you pick 'free' as your deciding factor on why you buy something, the end result is shitty quality. Quality costs, its mind blowing that so many seemingly intelligent people can't grasp that manufactures jumping on a FREE OS are going to result in a bunch of steaming piles of outdated shit.
Manufactures running Android are in a race to the cheapest possible device, if you expect anything else, you're an ignorant idiot who deserves what you get. If they were concerned about quality, they wouldn't have a problem investing in a non-shitty OS. And you can tell me Android isn't shitty when its own developers stop saying its shitty compared to iOS.
You do, when you vote. If you're in an area that elects judges directly, you do it that way, otherwise you decide by voting for the people who have the power to appoint judges.
YOU WATCH THE WATCHER, but only when you're not so fucking lazy that you bother to at least attempt to make an effort to figure out how your country works.
And you know what, this shit would have been handled EXACTLY the same then as it is now. You seem to think that you could get by with more shit back then because people didn't care due to the shitty government they had before, thats simply not true at all.
The constitution isn't a get out of jail card for douche bags to hide behind. Then, EXACTLY like now, when you try to play that card, common sense steps in and you loose, regardless of how loud you scream.
The constitution isn't mean to be your excuse to be a fucking douche to others, its mean to stop others from being a douche to you especially the government. Common sense prevails, which means sadly, you'll never get it.
And for reference, back then, if you did this to the wrong person, they'd just call your ass out in the street for a duel and shoot you in front of everyone.
No, both of you are not guilty until proven otherwise. You can try to twist it around to make it something complex, but you should stop, you're just really shitty at it. Common sense prevails here.
It is in fact possible that you told him to punch you in the face, that makes no one guilty of a crime. If you tried to file a police claim, the police would investigate and one of you would likely be charge. Him with assault, or you with making a false statement or something along those lines for getting the police involved based on a lie.
Its also possibly he committed assault and will be found guilty. In which case you are liable.
No real action would be taken until someone bothered to go to court and argue it out. Until then you are referred to as 'accused' of a crime, not 'guilty' of a crime. I'm not really understanding why this is a difficult concept for you, this is basic law here, you should know this like the back of your hand or you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a voting booth.
So whats wrong with the advertisers/sponsors responding? If its clear they are sponsors when they respond I fail to see an actual problem, if we can all still post what we want and we can mod them into oblivion and respond to the sponsors just like we always have, I really fail to see the problem.
Just make the app the shell for your desktop, no WM or anything.
This isn't really hard.
The users don't login to gnome or unity or kde or whatever, when they login the.xinitrc (I'm assuming GUI app) or whatever it is these days starts your java app instead of the normal desktop shell. No window manager, you don't need/want one, so no menus to start other apps or browsers unless you build one into your app.
If they close your app, they just get logged out, you'll need to build something in if you're not going to run a window manager though so they can logout.
Have you guys used Google before? I realize there are umpteen posts on here with crazy ass ways to install weird shit and tweak configs and all sorts of stuff, but there really isn't any point. You make it so their login only runs the app and nothing else, so switching to another console or tty doesn't matter.
This would be a trivial per user change, or system wide, but theres nothing you can do in your app itself, the whole system is designed so a rogue app CAN'T take over the system like you are designing, so you have to change the system to allow for your design.
Slashdot Mirror
Perhaps you should have been trying to switch classes instead. Both Sun and IBMs JVM are rather verbose when it comes to dealing with that sort of thing. Sounds like you don't even have the most basic of troubleshooting skills, which pretty much entirely precludes you from doing any sort of useful programming.
Going to collage for CS doesn't mean you know what you're doing, which seems to be your confusion.
I can drive a car, but I don't try to pretend I'm a race car driver. Not everyone who 'can do something' are actually talented at it. Most of us are just good enough to get along in the daily life and too stupid to realize thats where our talent ends.
I've been to several dancing classes and I still suck at it. Not everyone can be a dancer no matter what 'education' they get on it.
I know for a fact that a education in CS will make you a better programmer. It can't make a non-programmer a programmer, but it will make any programmer better than they would be without it.
Everything you said in your post can be summed up to 'not everyone is a programmer, even though they might think they are', you included.
And both of you were too stupid to recognize the point, eh?
Said by the guy who has no idea what he's talking about.
Until you realize that you're speeding up the heat death of the universe by 10%. At that point, the perceived cost savings isn't so much a savings ... is it? Thats right, I said it, by using Java you're bringing about an early end to the universe as we know it.
Note: I'm probably writing Java code as you read this.
Really? Have you actually looked at highway statistics, I think you'll be surprised.
Which means the OS won't actually allocate it, and no REAL memory will be used. It'll just take up some TLB cache somewhere and thats it.
If your OS is too stupid to not allocate unused pages, I really can't see the problem. (For reference, I've written OSes for microcontrollers that are that stupid)
All of this easy easily fixed with 4 characters worth of command line arguments.
Most people who write java code are not programmers. Java programmers probably don't really need any training wheels.
Actually, memory management in java is HARDER since you have no control over it.
Its cute that you think its easier, but the less control you have, the harder it becomes.
You speak as someone who has exactly 0 practical experience programming. Dealing with shitty weak reference issues in java is an obnoxious pain in the ass that is entirely avoided in non GC languages, but you go ahead and pretend you know what you're talking about.
Sigh, idiot.
You do realize that an if statement, a while/for loop and any other branch is the exact same thing as a GOTO, right.
Whenever I see some moron ranting about GOTOs I just have to start laughing. When people rant about GOTO its because they have absolutely 0 idea how everything works under the hood and are doing nothing other than spewing out what someone else on the Internet said about GOTOs.
GOTO isn't bad, only idiots like yourself who don't have a fucking clue what you're doing using it improperly make it bad. The reason everyone tells you its evil is because you aren't' competent enough to understand its proper usage so its better off for the rest of us if you just don't use it than it is for us trying to get you to use it properly.
You might have been taught in the 70s, but you were taught wrong. If you have some sort of retarded self block against using GOTOs, then you are a shitty programmer. They have a time and place where they fit better than anything else.
Perhaps if you understood how things like try {} catch {} finally {} actually worked, you wouldn't make such ignorant statements. GOTOs are everywhere in your code, you're just to ignorant to realize it.
I'm fairly certain you've never lived in Texas. Its too fucking hot to build a new house, let a lone be the moron to burn down the old one.
You fail to understand the problem because you are a programmer.
Programmers care not about the language, the language is simply an end to a means. A programmer can write code in any language because the language is unimportant, the logic that the programmer can visualize is whats important, and that can be implemented in almost all useful languages, certainly any we're talking about here.
The people you see talking bad about cobol are people who are not programmers, they are people who (may) write code in a given language. Plenty of idiots 'write code' in a given language, in fact most of the development in the world happens this way. Programmers on the other hand, write code in any language. Most people who write code are not programmers. The instant someone starts talking about how awesome their language is or how much some other language sucks, you can almost instantly write them off as a newbie non-programmer who has been shown how to write a few lines of code, but they have no actual understanding of the process.
I've never written a single line of cobol, but I'd bet a paycheck that I could write reasonably efficient cobol code in the course of one pay period. I am a programmer, I write code, I care not what the language is, I care about the logic and math. Everyone else is just a code monkey.
The fact that you're using an arbitrary measurement shows you're complete lack of understanding of programming.
How the fuck did this get marked as insightful? I can write an entire java application, a non-trivial one at that, with a SINGLE ( as in wc -l returns 1 on the single file in the project) line of code. Could do it with python as well, and perl, probably ruby too, PHP for sure, C/C++/C#/Objective C for certain ... in fact, other than VB, I can't think of a language I can't do it all on one line. Not saying they don't exist, but just pointing out that counting lines of code is such a silly concept, anyone that understands whats going on has a hard time grasping why you would consider counting them in the first place.
Using lines of code is an instant indicator of 'not having the slightest clue what so ever' when referring to any non-whitespace sensitive language, and most others as well.
Counting lines of code is only useful in a relative form, as in, counting lines of code YOU personally produced this month compared to last month, and even then lines of change are more indicative than new lines, but both are shitty metrics without context.
No programmer counts lines of code, only bad managers.
Gartner is hardly a reliable source when it comes to studies such as this, its common knowledge they shill for whoever is paying them for the study.
I've developed applications which have > 10k users in the following languages:
C/C++
ASP
ASP.NET (C#)
VB6
Java
PHP
While my prefered language for getting 'real work' done is C/C++. Over the years I've learned that the only real reason Java applications suck is because Java is easy to deal with (Like VB) so it brings in a metric fuckton of really shitty managers who think they are developers ... who write REALLY REALLY REALLY shitty apps.
Until about 3 years ago, you would not catch a shitty PoS java app on my machine, slow bloating piles of crap ...
Then I was forced to write a java servlet because I needed a good SVG renderer, and Batik is about the only one that doesn't suck ass.
From that experience I learned that Java indeed IS nice, and the JVM (on Windows and OS X at least) is pretty damn impressive (not perfect, but still impressive). I quickly learned that writing fast, quick to load Java apps is really trivial. In fact, they only way I can make a Java app suck is by doing things that I would never allow to be committed to a revision control system I'm in charge of. I am currently incapable of writing a 'slow bloated java app'. It takes me EFFORT to make Java suck. When you see a shitty Java app, you are seeing truely inexperienced programmers who have done things SO AMAZINGLY wrong that you really shouldn't consider them programmers. They aren't, they are just people who wrote some java code.
It's sad that it takes 16GB of RAM just to compile a build of Android. And the funny thing is it kills the whole point of Android being "open". What person has 16GB of RAM on the off chance that they might wanna compile an Android build?
So Open Street Maps isn't Open because I only have 5 gigs of ram in the machine I want to use to process their massive map database into image tiles? I'll have to let them know, here I was, I thought it was just mean for not meeting the requirements of processing a REALLY LARGE complex system that requires extensive optimization in order to actually be useful.
I'm sorry, this is just silly. Open doesn't mean you can use it, it means there are no arbitrary exclusions or inclusions. Open doesn't mean 'meant for everyone and everything for 0 cost'. I'm sorry you're idea of open has been tainted by GPL fanboys, but reality is a little different than what you think it is. Its not my fault you don't have enough RAM to build a system as complex as Android. I say that as what I can only describe as an 'android hater'. I REALLY want to use it for a couple projects, but its just not up to my requirements for lag free operation ... none the less, its really fucking retarded to call it 'not open' because you can't afford the build requirements.
Finally, its fairly trivial to build on less than 16GB of ram, as long as you don't mind waiting a while ... you do know what swap is for, right? I'm sorry you don't understand how things work in the real world, but you don't actually have anything to complain about here.
Funny, I used to work on a COBOL web app.
If you want a shining example of COBOL web apps ... www.irs.gov
Some of the most important web apps in the entire world run on COBOL. And for reference, Facebook is in no way 'important'. That little bit of perspective might be a good start for you.
Its so cute how newbies think they know so much about technology yet your lack of experience and wisdom makes you so ... funny to watch.
Loose the arrogance and learn yourself some history, trust me, you'll save yourself so much freaking time its not even a little bit funny.
For a crowd of computer dorks who know all too well the ups and downs of the software development lifecycle, we here on /. sure do like to play dumb...
Well, the problem is, slashdot is no longer the site frequented by those who know what they are doing. Judging by the articles over the past year, even more so since Taco left, slashdot is trying to be just another mainstream site with a tech focus.
You pretty much have to write off about 2/3rds of the user base (anyone with a UID over 1 million) as a high schooler without a clue. Sure there are the occasional high UIDs that aren't idiots because they JUST created an account or lost an older one, but for the most part, anyone above UID 1 million is just your average Joe who read something on the Internet and think they are a developer/sysadmin/netadmin/engineer/astrophysicist.
Yes it does. Support stops at the very moment you buy the phone. From that point on, they want to sell you the next phone, the only way you'll buy the next phone is if yours dies or the next one has some feature you don't have. If they give you all the software features, you won't upgrade. Its not even a little bit complex.
Apple does the same thing. I say that as an iPhone 4s owner. The only reason I bought it over a cheaper 4 is Siri. The camera is another good reason, but its not that big of a deal. So while Apple gives my older phones updates, they also intentionally leave out things to give you a reason to buy a new device.
Interestingly enough, Apple, while basically holding back things they could give older phones they STILL provide better updates and less BS than Android devices.
Let me give you guys a hint, when you pick 'free' as your deciding factor on why you buy something, the end result is shitty quality. Quality costs, its mind blowing that so many seemingly intelligent people can't grasp that manufactures jumping on a FREE OS are going to result in a bunch of steaming piles of outdated shit.
Manufactures running Android are in a race to the cheapest possible device, if you expect anything else, you're an ignorant idiot who deserves what you get. If they were concerned about quality, they wouldn't have a problem investing in a non-shitty OS. And you can tell me Android isn't shitty when its own developers stop saying its shitty compared to iOS.
You do, when you vote. If you're in an area that elects judges directly, you do it that way, otherwise you decide by voting for the people who have the power to appoint judges.
YOU WATCH THE WATCHER, but only when you're not so fucking lazy that you bother to at least attempt to make an effort to figure out how your country works.
Its not really hard to understand.
And you know what, this shit would have been handled EXACTLY the same then as it is now. You seem to think that you could get by with more shit back then because people didn't care due to the shitty government they had before, thats simply not true at all.
The constitution isn't a get out of jail card for douche bags to hide behind. Then, EXACTLY like now, when you try to play that card, common sense steps in and you loose, regardless of how loud you scream.
The constitution isn't mean to be your excuse to be a fucking douche to others, its mean to stop others from being a douche to you especially the government. Common sense prevails, which means sadly, you'll never get it.
And for reference, back then, if you did this to the wrong person, they'd just call your ass out in the street for a duel and shoot you in front of everyone.
No, both of you are not guilty until proven otherwise. You can try to twist it around to make it something complex, but you should stop, you're just really shitty at it. Common sense prevails here.
It is in fact possible that you told him to punch you in the face, that makes no one guilty of a crime. If you tried to file a police claim, the police would investigate and one of you would likely be charge. Him with assault, or you with making a false statement or something along those lines for getting the police involved based on a lie.
Its also possibly he committed assault and will be found guilty. In which case you are liable.
No real action would be taken until someone bothered to go to court and argue it out. Until then you are referred to as 'accused' of a crime, not 'guilty' of a crime. I'm not really understanding why this is a difficult concept for you, this is basic law here, you should know this like the back of your hand or you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a voting booth.
Really? You don't think that companies care whether or not they look foolish in the public eye?
Marketings job is to craft the way the company looks 'in the public eye'. They will answer accordingly, not honestly.
You must be really naive.
So whats wrong with the advertisers/sponsors responding? If its clear they are sponsors when they respond I fail to see an actual problem, if we can all still post what we want and we can mod them into oblivion and respond to the sponsors just like we always have, I really fail to see the problem.
I'm trying not to be paranoid these days.
Just make the app the shell for your desktop, no WM or anything.
This isn't really hard.
The users don't login to gnome or unity or kde or whatever, when they login the .xinitrc (I'm assuming GUI app) or whatever it is these days starts your java app instead of the normal desktop shell. No window manager, you don't need/want one, so no menus to start other apps or browsers unless you build one into your app.
If they close your app, they just get logged out, you'll need to build something in if you're not going to run a window manager though so they can logout.
Have you guys used Google before? I realize there are umpteen posts on here with crazy ass ways to install weird shit and tweak configs and all sorts of stuff, but there really isn't any point. You make it so their login only runs the app and nothing else, so switching to another console or tty doesn't matter.
This would be a trivial per user change, or system wide, but theres nothing you can do in your app itself, the whole system is designed so a rogue app CAN'T take over the system like you are designing, so you have to change the system to allow for your design.