So on the one hand you say that people cannot be trusted to donate freely, but on the other they can elect officials to force them to?
This is an inconsistent and hence invalid position. The fact of the matter is, any payment extracted unwillingly is theft by force, pure and simple.
Arg... This is what I mean: We need to pay taxes. Most would not donate their money for a common cause. However, we have the oppportunity in this country to elect officials who will (hopefully) put that money to good use, and raise or lower our taxes as we see fit. Entiendes?
If you do not like that... leave. Go live in a country where you have to either live under socialism, or constant fear of getting physically robbed (instead of legally:)
A: Because I care more about my country and where I live. Fix that, then you can fix the world. Errrr.... maybe.
That's a cop-out and you know it. You don't care that human beings are being bought and sold in Africa today any more than I do. You won't lose one minute of sleep over it. And neither will any of the black people who posted to this discussion who love to bring up slavery as some sort of sympathy ploy.
I try to care... it concerns me. But, I am realistic, and I know there is not much I can do about it. As for the things I see around me, there is (hopefully) something I can do about it... and essentially, I am already being forced to do something about it through taxes... and I want to be able to have input on where those taxes go.
I have never brought up slavery, that no longer has many bearings on our state today. What I have been bringing up is that Black Americans were awarded full citizinship of this country only 30 years ago, and after a long fight!!!
And calling a statistic bullshit because you don't like it's implications is a pretty poor debate tactic. Although I hope you're right because that figure is pretty shocking to me, just another nail in the coffin of whatever liberal ideas I ever used to have.
Are we talking about the money per month on clothes statistic!? Think about it... if we believe that $2400 a month is spent on black children for clothes, that adds up to $28,800 a year AFTER TAX! This is simply not realistic.... gimme a break! Not even mentioning that most families have more than one child.
Once again I am not talking about slavery here. What I am talking about, is only 30 years ago, these people were not even allowed full citizinship in this country.
You should not necesarily be proud to be white... but if your family is Dutch/German/Italian/English/Irish/Whatever there is a very strong and distinct culture for you to be a part of... if you choose. You can be proud of that.
I am not drawing any conclusions based on their inclusion in a group asides from "that person is Irish/Mandarian/German/Persian/Kenyon/Russian/etc. It is not a bad thing to seek out your roots and learn your history. Because... perhaps, you could even learn from history *gasp*.
I rather think of this country as more of a mixing pot than a melting pot... we are all individuals. To ignore our differences and all melt into one "blob" would make for a very boring America. While i think it is a great thing to celebrate your culture and learn from it... i do not think it is a good thing to isolate yourselves based on culture. The American Indians come to my mind when I think of this.
You can have strong ties to your culture an be American, learning our language, customs and mixing with other cultures. Those that refuse to should not be in America.
People are taking a small part of things I have said and going on wild tangents with them. welcome to slashdot:)
I am not talking in absolutes. But, yes, I do feel that the poor white people in america have more of an advantage than poor black people. My belief is that a certain percentage of all races are lazy and ignorant, and deserve to be poor. That percentage is probably close to realized in the white community. But blacks are not so out of whack with the rest of the human race that a much larger percentage deserves to live in poverty. I believe they have had those opportunities kept from them, and that they are not a lazy and incompetant peolple.
i would prefer my taxes to not fund welfare (at least the way it is now) and social security (again, at least the way it is now). But I do not believe in simply abolishing them... I believe in reform. I believe we pay way too much in taxes. I believe the government is too large right now. BUT, it still needs to have a presense. If the government lost 85% of its power... the depression would happen all over again. It would be possible to live in a country with 70% unemployment. Even for the 30% that are employed, it is a bad place to live because you have to be constantly wary of crime. The government, through various measures can prevent this from happening. That is important.
This may shock you, but I have voted Republican and Independat my entire life. I want less government. But I am also realistic, and know that it is needed. And I want as many people as possible to have the opportunities America has given me.
I am sorry that you want to revoke your citizenship. I can not think of any place better.
You may be correct. I do not know enough about Affirmitive Action myself.
From my understanding, it lowers the test scores and placement tests for a minority to get a job or into a college, and sometimes gives a minimum of minority workers or students needed. This, in effect will keep people from getting that job who might be more deserving. While the premise may be to correct racially biased measures, I think it has gone beyond that.
At least it has in many people's minds. Many white people out there blame affirmitive action as reasons they did not get a job, or as the sole reason why a black person got a job. This creates more racial tension.
for instance, I recently listened to a girl bitch about affirmitive action. Her father was a police officer, and she said that the test score necesary for a white cop was 92. For a black cop: 78. Whether this is true or not, affirmitave action has created this kind of feeling. And i notice that it is quite widespread.
How can the effect be determined as long lasting? Wasn't it only introduced this decade?
But again, I am not pretending to know much about it... only how I have perceived and from others.
I still favor funding towards underpriviledged children more however.
It is not wrong to want everyone to have the opportunity to "work hard" and earn a living.
I am not talking about hand-outs here. I am talking about giving opportunities to a group of people who have not even enjoyed equal citizenship in this country for 30 years now. Many of these people simply do not know of the opportunity out there. What they see around them is wellfare and laziness... if you are taught that working hard takes you off wellfare so you can make minimum wage flipping burgers, you would not give up the freedom that wellfare offers you either! But if we teach the kids that there is more than flipping burgers (or being a sports star or musician) as a means for them... many will take advantage of it.
I do not think Mr. Isbell is advocating we reward laziness... but merely, seeing to it that funding goes towards insuring that ALL Americans have the opportunity to work hard (as Kintanon has repeatedly proved he has) and make a living.
Poor black people in this country are at a tremendous disadvantage towards realizing these opportunities than others. This, specifically needs to be addressed.
I believe that such funding is available to all students who wish to go to college.
You are right, but often, the children we are talking about do not even make it to a point where college is an option.
I am speaking of earlier funding for high school and gradeschool. Instead of money merely going to parents in the form of welfare, and hoping they will provide for their children. That money should go directly to the children and help to provide for them early... while they still have a chance to get an education.
How this would work... i do not know. Send the kids to newly created boarding schools, where they can get away from the poverty in order to really learn. Set up a fund where the money can only be put towards educational materials. I do not know the specifics... but i do know that by the times most people start receiving help... it is too late to help most.
> And I think Communism is the furthest thing from Pure Darwinism.
Really? Then we should be moving more toward Social Darwinism. Communism has been shown to be a failure. The idea that "it failed the last time because that group of thugs did it wrong - our group of thugs knows better" is perverse. We in the U.S. are headed toward a police-state the likes of which has not been seen since 1930s/40s Germany. Our rights are being taken away day-by-day, and the majority of people are either ignorant or are welcoming it! We are becoming statist - Communism and Fascism are only two sides of the same coin.
Please re-read my statement, and then read yours.
In a quick summary:
Communsim = Everyone is equal Social Darwinism = Survival of the Fittest
I am being flamed for stating these to poles as opposites?
Use your head!
Complete Social Darwinism leads to fascism. The best rise to the top of the heap, and have a vested interst in keeping everyone else down. Things do not progress and evolve under this type of rule.
Capitalism is the best in my opinion. The fittest do blossom very well under this system, and there is providing for those less well-off. The government handles the jobs no one else would do, or would want to do... and represents the people internationally and domestically. This is great.. as long as there is active participation. If we become a nation of couch potatoes, it will become very easy to steal our rights from us. So you are right in that aspect.
I find your statement to be racist and offensive. No one is allowed to express any negative inclinations along racial lines. It's not nice.
Not sure what you are refering to.
Lemme think here... Middle Ages... Serfs... Born into poverty... never knew anything better... Violent revolution... I'd say that one way or another poor folk who want to get a better life will. And they don't need a handout from some yuppy geek that wants to make himself feel better.
So you would prefer a bloody revolution to reform? That makes a lot of sense.
I think you have reached a point where you are disagreeing with me just to disagree with me.
The price of living in the United States is that you pay taxes. I prefer my taxes to go to work as a means of opening opportunities for people I feel would not have one by any other means. As opposed to wellfare... which I do view as a form of "handout". In a civilized society you help those that are poor. The reason taxes exist is so that people like yourself are forced to help the general populace, as well as the poor... we both know you would not do it otherwise (who would!?). Your responsibility is to pay those taxes, and in my view, I think you should care that those taxes are being used in the best means possible.
This is where you are screwing up. You can send your money wherever you want to. BUT as soon as you start dictating where MY money should go I start getting pissed. What if I believed 'our' tax dollars should go towards teaching Dolphins sign language? would you let me just drag another 50$ a week out of your paycheck for it?
So you think that the money you pay for taxes is being used properly!? The goverment has been dictating where your money has been going... but you get pissed when I suggest that money should not go towards wellfare, but towards scholarships and the like!? If you believe that taxes should be increased for animal intelligence projects... preach it, try and raise concern for it. That is what I am trying to do. I do not have the power to make you pay an extra 50 bucks for poor black children (maybe I could beat it out of you:), but I can hopefully raise a concern from you. And maybe you might take the time to vote for someone who is advocating these kind of things.
I believe that our government has put a large group of people in a bad situation, and I want to see them right it.
I understand that slavery was bad, and slavery was wrong and that slavery never should have happened. But Get a CLUE Slavery was not INVENTED in America.
Wow!? I had no idea!
I am not talking about slavery as much here... I am talking about the fact that blacks were not even full citizens of this country until 30 years ago! Come on, that is has a lot of bearing on their lives today! More so than slavery.
And how well off would those people today if they hadn't been brought to America as slaves? Slavery still exists in Africa today, if you feel so strongly about slavery, why aren't you doing something about it?
Because I care more about my country and where I live. Fix that, then you can fix the world. Errrr.... maybe.
Fucking right I do. If black people would have the same attitude instead of the contempt for education and hard work that many of them display, half the problem would be solved.
Yes, those damn darkies... No respect!
You didn't understand a word I wrote. It doesn't take much money. What was the statistic that was posted somewhere on this discussion about how much money was spent for clothes for a black child in a year? $2400 or something. And they can't afford a computer? Give me a break. I doubt I've spent $2400 on clothes in the last 10 years.
My Point was that we do not give this money to the parents to buy this crap for their kids (through welfare). They do not know any better. They do not know that they could buy a computer and ISP for their children for well under that kind of money. You need to start with the children... educate them, and if they work at it, give them the money to furhter it. Give the kids opportunities to realize $2400 can be spent on better things (this statistic is bullshit anyways though). Their parents simply do not know better
America is not a place where a culture ceases to survive if the members of the culture cease to stick together..
I agreee. While I feel it is important to identify and celebrate your culture, isolation is a very bad thing.
To back this up, I believe that the cretion of Indian reservations in the United States is one of the worst things we could have done for American Indians.
I believe that the majority of poor black people are there because they were born into it, and simply have not had the opportunity to know anything better. History gives us the reason why this is so.
I believe the majority of poor white people are there because they have refused to take advantage of the opportunities given to them, or are just plain ignorant and lazy.
This does not apply to everyone of course... but I really feel that poor blacks are at a disadvantage from the beggining, in our country. To ignore that is wrong.
The activists' attempts at "helping" racial minorities have resulted, simply, in more inequality and more divisiveness. Economic disparity won't change overnight, but it will take much longer if we persist in preying upon color of skin as a political weapon.
This is true. Such policies as affirmative action have perpetuated themselves into making more problems. They are only short term solutions to appease a certain political group.
More long term solutions need to be taken. That is why I am in favor of giving increased scholarships and education to these underprivilidged kids.
By lowering the boundaries for black adults, you promote lackluster work... and merely piss off a whole lot of people who would otherwise deserve the job.
Give the kids the means to make themselves nito a person who could get that job without affirmative action!
I was guilty of generaliztion in my previous statement... yes.
I meant that the majority of poor blacks in America have known nothing else.
Some of them know more. But my point was that these people are not "lazy", as many peolpe like to shrug them off as... they are taught to be that way from their parents, creating a horrible cycle.
They need to learn, at a young age, that there is *more* out there, than the world they know. And that it accessable to them...
I never meant to state the majority of black people are poor and ignorant. Sorry.
...is to tell you to go fuck yourself. There will always be poor. Poverty is relative. As long as someone has a place to live and food, and education, I owe them nothing. Our current society is a far from Pure Darwinism as you can get. Heh.
Very well thought out argument.
The lazy deserve to be poor. Those that are born in our country into poverty, and are taught nothing but ignorance do not deserve to be. They deserve our help. We are not cavemen.
And I think Communism is the furthest thing from Pure Darwinism.
Sorry to bring up the point that a culture (other than our own) in our country has suffered more than necessary.
Yes, I am sure that many of you were poor, and I am sure that many of your parents were poor. But at least your parents and grandparents were EQUAL CITIZENS of this country!
This goes a long way towards your children and grandchildren to eventually make it.
The fact that I want my tax dollars to help underpriviliged, prejudiced against kids makes me a traitor to true freedom and liberty?
You are either a blithering idiot, or you completely misunderstand me. I want everyone in this country to have equal opportunity, not standing... that does not exist right now. And I believe our tax dollars should go towards mending our mistakes in the past. And I want people like you to understand why these were mistakes.
I am far from a bleeding heart liberal, and I consider myself to be a huge advocate of liberty, freedom, equality and the capitalist society.
Your ability to see things from only your point of view is what is bullshit.
While your relatives were fighting for a decent job, they were fighting for the simple right to vote. For the right to ride the same bus, use the same restrooms and go to the same schools.
They have fought... a lot more than you obviously understand.
You seem to be the one who is whining. Poor you, look how YOU have suffered. And now that you have made something of youself you flaunt it and denounce those that could not.
Thank you for informing ME how to program. Now, what needs to be done is to teach kids how to program, that would not have had that opportunity otherwise. You do not need to do this personally, but try to see to it that your tax money goes there, and elect the people who say they will enforce that. Don't just give their parents money through welfare.
Ah... but it was an almost pure form of "survival of the fittest" that instituted Feudalism.
The most powerful became kings and rulers of their fiefs, and succesfully instituted a system to keep their offspring in power. And to keep people well-inside of their castes.
Yes, I was reffering to social darwinism (which is a mutation of darwinism). But I really feel that if what a lot of the posters are screaming for would result in such a system. And that would be horrible. As you have pointed out.
As for it being a duty of anyone priviliged living in a civilized society to assist those who are less priviliged, I think that if that is your personal view of what you believe that you should be doing, than it is a highly admirable one. However, I do not agree that it is the price you pay for living in the U.S. and I do not believe it should be either. It is a good and decent thing to help those less fortunate than yourself, and I highly reccomend it. However, it is not, and should not, be made mandatory. Once you start mandating morality you wind up with the difficult question of whose morality. Whose values do you endorse across the board? So we just blithely let the government decide what causes are and are not worthy? I hope not.
It needs to be mandatory, or not enough people would do it. We need taxes (though not to the extent we currently pay), there is no denying it. I just feel that a different road needs to be followed with this money. And I hope to have officials elected that will do this. We still can vote those people in and out of office yah know.
I never said there is a need for more taxes. In fact, I think there is a need to reduce taxes.
You are already paying a lot of money to supposedly help the poor through your taxes going through wellfare programs. What I am arguing is that money should not be going towards the parents who are much more content to sit on their asses and let the checks roll in than to get a job. I want that money to instead go towards the kids in the form of scholarships. The parents are a hopelss case.
If the kids go to school and get good grades, money goes to them in order to open opportunities. Their parents are not going to be opening any opportunities with that money except the chance to follow in their footsteps.
Would that be at the expense of other people who might have EARNED a place at college? There isn't exactly an unlimited amount of space at most campuses. So for every undeserving person you force into school you are taking an opportunity away from someone who might have been trying very very hard to get a scholarship to that school.
No. Unfortunately this happens... and I feels it perpetuates itself into more prejudice and hard feelings. That is an easy solution that does not take the whole issue into play.
Instead, you create more schools and oportunities for enrollment. This is a long-term goal... not something to merely keep a certain people content for the time being.
People are just people. Until someone comes along and tells them to feel rage because they are different, and "victims."
Or how about when someone comes along and tells them that they are inferior, lazy and stupid?
This is much worse, and it happened(s).
People are not just people... our society was created and based upon celebrating our differences and uniqueness, and accepting those differences. Somewhere along the lines that did not apply to black people.
Cultures are a wonderful thing to hold on to and preserve, and it is a wonderful thing to be identified with your culture. You should be proud of that.
Slashdot Mirror
So on the one hand you say that people cannot be trusted to donate freely, but on the other they can elect officials to force them to?
:)
This is an inconsistent and hence invalid position. The fact of the matter is, any payment extracted unwillingly is theft by force, pure and simple.
Arg... This is what I mean:
We need to pay taxes. Most would not donate their money for a common cause.
However, we have the oppportunity in this country to elect officials who will (hopefully) put that money to good use, and raise or lower our taxes as we see fit. Entiendes?
If you do not like that... leave. Go live in a country where you have to either live under socialism, or constant fear of getting physically robbed (instead of legally
A: Because I care more about my country and where I live. Fix that, then you can fix the world. Errrr....
maybe.
That's a cop-out and you know it. You don't care that human beings are being bought and sold in Africa
today any more than I do. You won't lose one minute of sleep over it. And neither will any of the black
people who posted to this discussion who love to bring up slavery as some sort of sympathy ploy.
I try to care... it concerns me. But, I am realistic, and I know there is not much I can do about it. As for the things I see around me, there is (hopefully) something I can do about it... and essentially, I am already being forced to do something about it through taxes... and I want to be able to have input on where those taxes go.
I have never brought up slavery, that no longer has many bearings on our state today. What I have been bringing up is that Black Americans were awarded full citizinship of this country only 30 years ago, and after a long fight!!!
And calling a statistic bullshit
because you don't like it's implications is a pretty poor debate tactic. Although I hope you're right because
that figure is pretty shocking to me, just another nail in the coffin of whatever liberal ideas I ever used to
have.
Are we talking about the money per month on clothes statistic!? Think about it... if we believe that $2400 a month is spent on black children for clothes, that adds up to $28,800 a year AFTER TAX! This is simply not realistic.... gimme a break! Not even mentioning that most families have more than one child.
Once again I am not talking about slavery here.
.
:)
What I am talking about, is only 30 years ago, these people were not even allowed full citizinship in this country.
You should not necesarily be proud to be white... but if your family is Dutch/German/Italian/English/Irish/Whatever there is a very strong and distinct culture for you to be a part of... if you choose. You can be proud of that.
I am not drawing any conclusions based on their inclusion in a group asides from "that person is Irish/Mandarian/German/Persian/Kenyon/Russian/etc
It is not a bad thing to seek out your roots and learn your history. Because... perhaps, you could even learn from history *gasp*.
I rather think of this country as more of a mixing pot than a melting pot... we are all individuals. To ignore our differences and all melt into one "blob" would make for a very boring America. While i think it is a great thing to celebrate your culture and learn from it... i do not think it is a good thing to isolate yourselves based on culture. The American Indians come to my mind when I think of this.
You can have strong ties to your culture an be American, learning our language, customs and mixing with other cultures. Those that refuse to should not be in America.
People are taking a small part of things I have said and going on wild tangents with them.
welcome to slashdot
I am not talking in absolutes. But, yes, I do feel that the poor white people in america have more of an advantage than poor black people.
My belief is that a certain percentage of all races are lazy and ignorant, and deserve to be poor. That percentage is probably close to realized in the white community. But blacks are not so out of whack with the rest of the human race that a much larger percentage deserves to live in poverty. I believe they have had those opportunities kept from them, and that they are not a lazy and incompetant peolple.
i would prefer my taxes to not fund welfare (at least the way it is now) and social security (again, at least the way it is now).
But I do not believe in simply abolishing them... I believe in reform.
I believe we pay way too much in taxes. I believe the government is too large right now.
BUT, it still needs to have a presense. If the government lost 85% of its power... the depression would happen all over again. It would be possible to live in a country with 70% unemployment. Even for the 30% that are employed, it is a bad place to live because you have to be constantly wary of crime.
The government, through various measures can prevent this from happening. That is important.
This may shock you, but I have voted Republican and Independat my entire life. I want less government. But I am also realistic, and know that it is needed. And I want as many people as possible to have the opportunities America has given me.
I am sorry that you want to revoke your citizenship. I can not think of any place better.
You may be correct. I do not know enough about Affirmitive Action myself.
From my understanding, it lowers the test scores and placement tests for a minority to get a job or into a college, and sometimes gives a minimum of minority workers or students needed. This, in effect will keep people from getting that job who might be more deserving. While the premise may be to correct racially biased measures, I think it has gone beyond that.
At least it has in many people's minds. Many white people out there blame affirmitive action as reasons they did not get a job, or as the sole reason why a black person got a job. This creates more racial tension.
for instance, I recently listened to a girl bitch about affirmitive action. Her father was a police officer, and she said that the test score necesary for a white cop was 92. For a black cop: 78.
Whether this is true or not, affirmitave action has created this kind of feeling. And i notice that it is quite widespread.
How can the effect be determined as long lasting? Wasn't it only introduced this decade?
But again, I am not pretending to know much about it... only how I have perceived and from others.
I still favor funding towards underpriviledged children more however.
It is not wrong to want everyone to have the opportunity to "work hard" and earn a living.
I am not talking about hand-outs here. I am talking about giving opportunities to a group of people who have not even enjoyed equal citizenship in this country for 30 years now.
Many of these people simply do not know of the opportunity out there. What they see around them is wellfare and laziness... if you are taught that working hard takes you off wellfare so you can make minimum wage flipping burgers, you would not give up the freedom that wellfare offers you either!
But if we teach the kids that there is more than flipping burgers (or being a sports star or musician) as a means for them... many will take advantage of it.
I do not think Mr. Isbell is advocating we reward laziness... but merely, seeing to it that funding goes towards insuring that ALL Americans have the opportunity to work hard (as Kintanon has repeatedly proved he has) and make a living.
Poor black people in this country are at a tremendous disadvantage towards realizing these opportunities than others. This, specifically needs to be addressed.
I believe that such funding is available to all students who wish to go to college.
You are right, but often, the children we are talking about do not even make it to a point where college is an option.
I am speaking of earlier funding for high school and gradeschool. Instead of money merely going to parents in the form of welfare, and hoping they will provide for their children. That money should go directly to the children and help to provide for them early... while they still have a chance to get an education.
How this would work... i do not know. Send the kids to newly created boarding schools, where they can get away from the poverty in order to really learn. Set up a fund where the money can only be put towards educational materials.
I do not know the specifics... but i do know that by the times most people start receiving help... it is too late to help most.
> And I think Communism is the furthest thing from Pure Darwinism.
Really? Then we should be moving more toward Social Darwinism. Communism has been shown to be a failure. The idea that "it failed the last time because that group of thugs did it wrong - our group of thugs knows better" is perverse. We in the U.S. are headed toward a police-state the likes of which has not been seen since 1930s/40s Germany. Our rights are being taken away day-by-day, and the majority of people are either ignorant or are welcoming it! We are becoming statist - Communism and Fascism are only two sides of the same coin.
Please re-read my statement, and then read yours.
In a quick summary:
Communsim = Everyone is equal
Social Darwinism = Survival of the Fittest
I am being flamed for stating these to poles as opposites?
Use your head!
Complete Social Darwinism leads to fascism. The best rise to the top of the heap, and have a vested interst in keeping everyone else down. Things do not progress and evolve under this type of rule.
Capitalism is the best in my opinion. The fittest do blossom very well under this system, and there is providing for those less well-off.
The government handles the jobs no one else would do, or would want to do... and represents the people internationally and domestically.
This is great.. as long as there is active participation. If we become a nation of couch potatoes, it will become very easy to steal our rights from us. So you are right in that aspect.
I find your statement to be racist and offensive.
No one is allowed to express any negative inclinations along racial lines. It's not nice.
Not sure what you are refering to.
Lemme think here... Middle Ages... Serfs... Born into poverty... never knew anything better... Violent revolution... I'd say that one way or another poor folk who want to get a better life will. And they don't need a handout from some yuppy geek that wants to make himself feel better.
So you would prefer a bloody revolution to reform? That makes a lot of sense.
I think you have reached a point where you are disagreeing with me just to disagree with me.
The price of living in the United States is that you pay taxes. I prefer my taxes to go to work as a means of opening opportunities for people I feel would not have one by any other means. As opposed to wellfare... which I do view as a form of "handout".
In a civilized society you help those that are poor. The reason taxes exist is so that people like yourself are forced to help the general populace, as well as the poor... we both know you would not do it otherwise (who would!?). Your responsibility is to pay those taxes, and in my view, I think you should care that those taxes are being used in the best means possible.
This is where you are screwing up. You can send your money wherever you want to. BUT as soon as you start dictating where MY money should go I start getting pissed. What if I believed 'our' tax dollars should go towards teaching Dolphins sign language? would you let me just drag another 50$ a week out of your paycheck for it?
So you think that the money you pay for taxes is being used properly!? The goverment has been dictating where your money has been going... but you get pissed when I suggest that money should not go towards wellfare, but towards scholarships and the like!? If you believe that taxes should be increased for animal intelligence projects... preach it, try and raise concern for it. That is what I am trying to do. I do not have the power to make you pay an extra 50 bucks for poor black children (maybe I could beat it out of you:), but I can hopefully raise a concern from you. And maybe you might take the time to vote for someone who is advocating these kind of things.
I believe that our government has put a large group of people in a bad situation, and I want to see them right it.
I understand that slavery was bad, and slavery was wrong and that slavery never should have happened. But Get a CLUE Slavery was not INVENTED in America.
Wow!? I had no idea!
I am not talking about slavery as much here... I am talking about the fact that blacks were not even full citizens of this country until 30 years ago!
Come on, that is has a lot of bearing on their lives today! More so than slavery.
And how well off would those people today if they hadn't been brought to America as slaves? Slavery still exists in Africa today, if you feel so strongly about slavery, why aren't you doing something about it?
Because I care more about my country and where I live. Fix that, then you can fix the world. Errrr.... maybe.
Fucking right I do. If black people would have the same attitude instead of the contempt for education and hard work that many of them display, half the problem would be solved.
Yes, those damn darkies... No respect!
You didn't understand a word I wrote. It doesn't take much money. What was the statistic that was posted somewhere on this discussion about how much money was spent for clothes for a black child in a year? $2400 or something. And they can't afford a computer? Give me a break. I doubt I've spent $2400 on clothes in the last 10 years.
My Point was that we do not give this money to the parents to buy this crap for their kids (through welfare). They do not know any better. They do not know that they could buy a computer and ISP for their children for well under that kind of money.
You need to start with the children... educate them, and if they work at it, give them the money to furhter it. Give the kids opportunities to realize $2400 can be spent on better things (this statistic is bullshit anyways though). Their parents simply do not know better
America is not a place where a culture ceases to survive if the members of the culture cease to stick together..
I agreee. While I feel it is important to identify and celebrate your culture, isolation is a very bad thing.
To back this up, I believe that the cretion of Indian reservations in the United States is one of the worst things we could have done for American Indians.
PS, I'm as white as can be, and southern to boot.
Really!? I find that really hard to believe.
You have a many valid points... but I think it is a mistake to state there is no difference between a poor black family, and a poor white family.
A poor white family was not "placed" there by our government because of the color of their skin. There is often a reason they are poor.
But you do not conveniantly forget the past.
I believe that the majority of poor black people are there because they were born into it, and simply have not had the opportunity to know anything better. History gives us the reason why this is so.
I believe the majority of poor white people are there because they have refused to take advantage of the opportunities given to them, or are just plain ignorant and lazy.
This does not apply to everyone of course... but I really feel that poor blacks are at a disadvantage from the beggining, in our country.
To ignore that is wrong.
The activists' attempts at "helping" racial minorities have resulted, simply, in more inequality and more divisiveness. Economic disparity won't change overnight, but it will take much longer if we persist in preying upon color of skin as a political weapon.
This is true. Such policies as affirmative action have perpetuated themselves into making more problems. They are only short term solutions to appease a certain political group.
More long term solutions need to be taken. That is why I am in favor of giving increased scholarships and education to these underprivilidged kids.
By lowering the boundaries for black adults, you promote lackluster work... and merely piss off a whole lot of people who would otherwise deserve the job.
Give the kids the means to make themselves nito a person who could get that job without affirmative action!
There is no denying that children should be reached at a young age.
We really do not care how great you are.
(at least under this topic)
I was guilty of generaliztion in my previous statement... yes.
I meant that the majority of poor blacks in America have known nothing else.
Some of them know more. But my point was that these people are not "lazy", as many peolpe like to shrug them off as... they are taught to be that way from their parents, creating a horrible cycle.
They need to learn, at a young age, that there is *more* out there, than the world they know. And that it accessable to them...
I never meant to state the majority of black people are poor and ignorant. Sorry.
...is to tell you to go fuck yourself. There will always be poor. Poverty is relative. As long as someone has a place to live and food, and education, I owe them nothing. Our current society is a far from Pure Darwinism as you can get. Heh.
Very well thought out argument.
The lazy deserve to be poor. Those that are born in our country into poverty, and are taught nothing but ignorance do not deserve to be. They deserve our help. We are not cavemen.
And I think Communism is the furthest thing from Pure Darwinism.
Please think before you press "submit"
This is quite a strong flame against me.
Sorry to bring up the point that a culture (other than our own) in our country has suffered more than necessary.
Yes, I am sure that many of you were poor, and I am sure that many of your parents were poor. But at least your parents and grandparents were EQUAL CITIZENS of this country!
This goes a long way towards your children and grandchildren to eventually make it.
The fact that I want my tax dollars to help underpriviliged, prejudiced against kids makes me a traitor to true freedom and liberty?
You are either a blithering idiot, or you completely misunderstand me. I want everyone in this country to have equal opportunity, not standing... that does not exist right now. And I believe our tax dollars should go towards mending our mistakes in the past. And I want people like you to understand why these were mistakes.
I am far from a bleeding heart liberal, and I consider myself to be a huge advocate of liberty, freedom, equality and the capitalist society.
Your ability to see things from only your point of view is what is bullshit.
While your relatives were fighting for a decent job, they were fighting for the simple right to vote. For the right to ride the same bus, use the same restrooms and go to the same schools.
They have fought... a lot more than you obviously understand.
You seem to be the one who is whining. Poor you, look how YOU have suffered. And now that you have made something of youself you flaunt it and denounce those that could not.
Thank you for informing ME how to program. Now, what needs to be done is to teach kids how to program, that would not have had that opportunity otherwise. You do not need to do this personally, but try to see to it that your tax money goes there, and elect the people who say they will enforce that. Don't just give their parents money through welfare.
Ah... but it was an almost pure form of "survival of the fittest" that instituted Feudalism.
The most powerful became kings and rulers of their fiefs, and succesfully instituted a system to keep their offspring in power. And to keep people well-inside of their castes.
Yes, I was reffering to social darwinism (which is a mutation of darwinism). But I really feel that if what a lot of the posters are screaming for would result in such a system. And that would be horrible. As you have pointed out.
As for it being a duty of anyone priviliged living in a civilized society to assist those who are less priviliged, I think that if that is your personal view of what you believe that you should be doing, than it is a highly admirable one.
However, I do not agree that it is the price you pay for living in the U.S. and I do not believe it should be either.
It is a good and decent thing to help those less fortunate than yourself, and I highly reccomend it. However, it is not, and should not, be made mandatory. Once you start mandating morality you wind up with the difficult question of whose morality. Whose values do you endorse across the board? So we just blithely let the government decide what causes are and are not worthy? I hope not.
It needs to be mandatory, or not enough people would do it. We need taxes (though not to the extent we currently pay), there is no denying it. I just feel that a different road needs to be followed with this money. And I hope to have officials elected that will do this.
We still can vote those people in and out of office yah know.
I never said there is a need for more taxes.
In fact, I think there is a need to reduce taxes.
You are already paying a lot of money to supposedly help the poor through your taxes going through wellfare programs. What I am arguing is that money should not be going towards the parents who are much more content to sit on their asses and let the checks roll in than to get a job.
I want that money to instead go towards the kids in the form of scholarships. The parents are a hopelss case.
If the kids go to school and get good grades, money goes to them in order to open opportunities. Their parents are not going to be opening any opportunities with that money except the chance to follow in their footsteps.
Would that be at the expense of other people who might have EARNED a place at college? There isn't exactly an unlimited amount of space at most campuses. So for every undeserving person you force into school you are taking an opportunity away from someone who might have been trying very very hard to get a scholarship to that school.
No. Unfortunately this happens... and I feels it perpetuates itself into more prejudice and hard feelings. That is an easy solution that does not take the whole issue into play.
Instead, you create more schools and oportunities for enrollment. This is a long-term goal... not something to merely keep a certain people content for the time being.
People are just people. Until someone comes along and tells them to feel rage because they are different, and "victims."
Or how about when someone comes along and tells them that they are inferior, lazy and stupid?
This is much worse, and it happened(s).
People are not just people... our society was created and based upon celebrating our differences and uniqueness, and accepting those differences. Somewhere along the lines that did not apply to black people.
Cultures are a wonderful thing to hold on to and preserve, and it is a wonderful thing to be identified with your culture. You should be proud of that.