And who will enforce the cleanup? Think real hard now. Yep, that's right, guys with baseball bats with nails sticking out on the end. We couldn't trust the government to enforce the cleanup or even mandate it. Right?
It may surprise you, but there's a concept that's been around for a long time that addresses situations like this. If someone can demonstrate a viable business plan and is willing to purchase a performance bond or put some money in trust to repave the streets if they fail then what exactly is your objection to letting them try?
I see. So when you go to buy a house, you call up your lawyer and get him to review everything you sign, at N hundred dollars per hour. Also, you pay economic advisers to tell you whether what you're considering is feasible. It must be nice to be so rich.
Spare me the attempt at biting sarcasm. I don't call a lawyer to review every contract that I sign. I read them myself and if there's something that I don't understand I seek advice or do research on the subject. Public libraries are free the last time I checked and should be ample to research most matters. For something with a 30 year commitment (i.e: mortgage), I would probably pay a lawyer for a consultation before I signed it, but to each their own.
As far as "economic advisers" go, if you haven't already figured out your budget situation and how much house you can afford then you have no business buying a house. It's not exactly rocket science to use a calculator. A spreadsheet is even more useful and can be comprehended by most people with a little bit of training and practice.
But I guess expecting a government of, by, and for the people to help its people is just stupid, huh?
Oh my gosh, whatever did we do before we had the government to sit with us at our closing and make sure the big bad bank didn't rip us off? Tell me, how can I get some government help getting my car fixed? I'm convinced that my mechanic is ripping me off but he's using big words like "catalytic converter" and I don't understand what he's talking about. Is there a government program somewhere that can teach me about this stuff? Somebody told me to use "the google" but I don't understand what they mean.
And for them to tell you that you will be fine with that loan is still being honest, I guess.
So if I sell you something it's my responsibility to make sure that you can afford the product I'm selling you and that it represents the best deal possible for you?
Do so at your own peril. Republican mismanagement and policies that protect the select few and screw the rest of us are exactly what brought us to this point, and anyone who has been paying attention already knows this. Keep supporting them and you'll get exactly what you deserve.
Who said I support the Republicans? I've never voted for a Republican for any office higher than County Executive. I just stopped taking you seriously when your comments made it blatantly obvious that you are a political partisan. Any serious examination of the last 20 years would discover that both major political parties are to blame for our current situation. Funny how you mentioned everything that the Republicans did wrong but were silent on the topic of the last Democratic President who pushed through free trade policies that have gutted the American working class, deregulation policies that would have made Reagan smile, censorship policies and copyright policies that we've all come to know and hate.
Take your blinders off and stop blaming the Republicans for everything that's wrong in this country.
I might, if they, being the authoritative money experts, told me it would be no problem and that this is all pretty standard and not to worry too much about it, just sign here plzkthx.
Then that makes you an idiot. I read everything that I sign and have little sympathy for those that don't. If I don't like what I read then I don't sign it. If I don't understand what I read then I postpone signing it until I can research it or find someone who does understand.
The expert has the responsibility in dealing with the non-expert to deal correctly and honestly, which didn't happen in this case, due to...you guessed it, insufficient regulation.
The expert has the responsibility of being honest (otherwise it's fraud) but I dispute that the expert has the responsibility of holding the hands of the non-expert. Nobody held a gun to your head and forced you to sign that 50 year interest-only adjustable rate mortgage.
However, the citizenry -- some of them -- did in fact vote the Republicans into office
Yes, it's all the fault of the Republicans. Sorry, this is where I stop taking you seriously.
Well Kudos for you. Let me outline my last experience with DMV. I walked into the office to renew my drivers license. Two clerks working behind the counter. One of them announces that she's going on her lunch break and puts a closed sign on her desk. The other one makes eye contact with me and then proceeds to pick up the phone and make a really "important" phone call: "You won't believe what my boyfriend did! He ran up my cell phone bill texting his ex girlfriend and now I can't afford that tattoo I was saving up for!"
A private business would have lost me as a customer at this point, but alas, Governmental monopoly so I don't have the luxury of doing business with someone else.
Patriotism is bigotry.
Love of my country makes me a bigot? Quite the sweeping statement you've made there.
Yes, I think that someone who has a potentially viable business plan should be allowed to try and execute that business plan with a minimal amount of governmental interference. Make them put up the money to repair the streets in trust and then get the fuck out of their way.
Ah, selective hearing. It's ironic that you quoted me and still only read part of my sentence. If you'd bothered to read it all you would have seen that I blamed poor lending standards as well as people who wanted to live beyond their means.
Sell people on loans -- for commissions, of course -- regardless of the borrower's chances of being able to keep up with it
And the borrower doesn't share in the responsbility in that scenario? Would you take out a loan that you had no chance of being able to repay even if the bank was willing to let you do it?
they only cry to blame the citizenry while simultaneously begging for handouts from them
The citizenry does share some of the blame here. Have you seen the neighborhoods in CA and FL that were hardest hit by this? They are all filled with McMansions that invariably had two SUVs in the driveway and at least one big screen TV in the house. I have very little sympathy for this "keep up with the Jones'" manner of living.
The people trying to absolve Main Street of blame in this crisis are just as bad as the people trying to absolve Wall Street. We all fucked up. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we can start fixing the mess we've created.
But they've gone from lending to everyone and his hairy dog to not loaning to anyone at all.
Car dealerships are having trouble because nobody can get a car loan.
*shrug*, that hasn't been my experience. I opened a $5,000 line of credit with my credit union last month (after I found out that Chase would be closing the existing one that I had with WaMu even though it's four years old and in good standing -- bastards) and my girlfriend just financed a $18,000 car. I've heard similiar stories locally and on the national level.
The big lenders have pulled back but the community banks and credit unions are still lending. The difference between them and the big boys is that they never got into the subprime mess to begin with -- they aren't "too big to fail" so they actually had to have lending standards. If you only qualified for a 'subprime' before then you probably won't get financing in this environment -- but I'm not convinced that's a bad thing. The people with good credit are still getting financing.
What if several people want to dig up the same major road at various times. No attempts to protect existing infrastructure from damage, or force companies to publicly document where their lines are going? Just nothing... a wild-west mentality toward building infrastructure.
WTF? I say "If they think they can do it profitably and clean up after themselves then why not allow it?" and you think I'm in favor of a wild west mentality?
I should be obvious to anyone who isn't pushing an agenda that I wasn't advocating just letting any old slob with a jackhammer and some cat5 start tearing up the roads. I would presume that they'd still need to meet local codes and get building permits. I would presume that they'd have to pay to have the street repaved after it was torn up -- in the same manner that my existing natural gas or water utilities have to pay if they rip up the road. I would presume that they'd have to respect existing infrastructure in the same manner as anyone who is building anything has to respect existing infrastructure.
What you seem to have missed or just ignored is the fact that even if you had a business plan that would meet all of the above requirements and wanted to enter a new market you would be shut out from doing so by a government backed monopoly.
2) tell the homeowners "you lucked out; you own your home free and clear."
Fuck that shit. I have no goddamn sympathy for people who bought more home than they could afford. This notion that the rest of us have to bail them out is infuriating. If I had known the Government was going to bail out bad mortgages I would have stopped paying mine months ago.
1) tell the investors "tough shit, you made a bad investment, you lose your shirt"
I'm a proud member of the center. Where do you fall, honestly?
On economics issues? Mostly in the center. I believe in the free market and think that Government generally does a piss poor job of trying to manage things -- but some regulation is usually called for. The difference between most liberals and myself is that I've been involved in running a business and I can recognize that all regulation imposes a higher cost of doing business. Thus I only support regulation when the net benefit to society is greater than the economic impact of the regulation. As a random example I'm sure that Jiffy Lube could provide cheaper oil changes if they were allowed to dump the used oil in the river -- but few people would advocate that as being a good solution.
On civil liberties I'm a staunch civil libertarian. I believe in all aspects of the Bill of Rights and this places me at odds with both political parties. Democrats on guns and Republicans on wiretapping.
On foreign policy I'm more of a mixed bag. I toy with the idea of wanting to see the United States return to our non-interventionist/non-aligned roots (notice how nobody is flying airplanes into Swiss buildings) but I question if such a thing is feasible in the modern world.
Ever heard of the political compass? It's a as good of an indication of where you lie on the political map as any other. I score a +1.38 on economics and -2.82 on social. I used to score around a -6/-5 before I became a recovering liberal;)
Energy independence Stimulus Package. Tax rebates for people who buy cars made in America
That won't stimulate the economy. That will spark a trade war with our European and Asian trading partners and the resulting decline in industries that rely on imports/exports will more than outweigh the resulting increase in Detroit.
The way to stimulate the economy is to get the banks lending [slashdot.org] again and get consumers spending again.
Ah, the hair of the dog. Wasn't it poor lending standards and people living beyond their means (i.e: greed on everyone's part) that got us into this mess? Just once I'd like to hear somebody talking about people needing to save in addition to talking about them needing to spend....
I have plenty of liberal friends, and I'm still not attracted to the ideology at all
It's a sad reflection on the political discourse of the modern world that Americans actually have to state that we have friends who hold differing political views.
You can tell the US needs a network upgrade when I'm halfway around the world away getting the first post on a dial-up?
Guess we don't need the upgrade cuz you didn't get the first post;) Thanks for confirming that our tubes are working properly and saving Uncle Sam a cool $10,000,000,000.00!
You are already required to carry a form of photo-Id anytime you're on public property, driving or not. I don't know if it's a Federal law yet, but it's a law where I live and the cops here consider it probable cause.
I'd like to see a citation for that. If it's a law where you live then you need to work on getting that law changed.
Slashdot Mirror
And who will enforce the cleanup? Think real hard now. Yep, that's right, guys with baseball bats with nails sticking out on the end. We couldn't trust the government to enforce the cleanup or even mandate it. Right?
It may surprise you, but there's a concept that's been around for a long time that addresses situations like this. If someone can demonstrate a viable business plan and is willing to purchase a performance bond or put some money in trust to repave the streets if they fail then what exactly is your objection to letting them try?
I see. So when you go to buy a house, you call up your lawyer and get him to review everything you sign, at N hundred dollars per hour. Also, you pay economic advisers to tell you whether what you're considering is feasible. It must be nice to be so rich.
Spare me the attempt at biting sarcasm. I don't call a lawyer to review every contract that I sign. I read them myself and if there's something that I don't understand I seek advice or do research on the subject. Public libraries are free the last time I checked and should be ample to research most matters. For something with a 30 year commitment (i.e: mortgage), I would probably pay a lawyer for a consultation before I signed it, but to each their own.
As far as "economic advisers" go, if you haven't already figured out your budget situation and how much house you can afford then you have no business buying a house. It's not exactly rocket science to use a calculator. A spreadsheet is even more useful and can be comprehended by most people with a little bit of training and practice.
But I guess expecting a government of, by, and for the people to help its people is just stupid, huh?
Oh my gosh, whatever did we do before we had the government to sit with us at our closing and make sure the big bad bank didn't rip us off? Tell me, how can I get some government help getting my car fixed? I'm convinced that my mechanic is ripping me off but he's using big words like "catalytic converter" and I don't understand what he's talking about. Is there a government program somewhere that can teach me about this stuff? Somebody told me to use "the google" but I don't understand what they mean.
And for them to tell you that you will be fine with that loan is still being honest, I guess.
So if I sell you something it's my responsibility to make sure that you can afford the product I'm selling you and that it represents the best deal possible for you?
Do so at your own peril. Republican mismanagement and policies that protect the select few and screw the rest of us are exactly what brought us to this point, and anyone who has been paying attention already knows this. Keep supporting them and you'll get exactly what you deserve.
Who said I support the Republicans? I've never voted for a Republican for any office higher than County Executive. I just stopped taking you seriously when your comments made it blatantly obvious that you are a political partisan. Any serious examination of the last 20 years would discover that both major political parties are to blame for our current situation. Funny how you mentioned everything that the Republicans did wrong but were silent on the topic of the last Democratic President who pushed through free trade policies that have gutted the American working class, deregulation policies that would have made Reagan smile, censorship policies and copyright policies that we've all come to know and hate.
Take your blinders off and stop blaming the Republicans for everything that's wrong in this country.
I might, if they, being the authoritative money experts, told me it would be no problem and that this is all pretty standard and not to worry too much about it, just sign here plzkthx.
Then that makes you an idiot. I read everything that I sign and have little sympathy for those that don't. If I don't like what I read then I don't sign it. If I don't understand what I read then I postpone signing it until I can research it or find someone who does understand.
The expert has the responsibility in dealing with the non-expert to deal correctly and honestly, which didn't happen in this case, due to...you guessed it, insufficient regulation.
The expert has the responsibility of being honest (otherwise it's fraud) but I dispute that the expert has the responsibility of holding the hands of the non-expert. Nobody held a gun to your head and forced you to sign that 50 year interest-only adjustable rate mortgage.
However, the citizenry -- some of them -- did in fact vote the Republicans into office
Yes, it's all the fault of the Republicans. Sorry, this is where I stop taking you seriously.
Well Kudos for you. Let me outline my last experience with DMV. I walked into the office to renew my drivers license. Two clerks working behind the counter. One of them announces that she's going on her lunch break and puts a closed sign on her desk. The other one makes eye contact with me and then proceeds to pick up the phone and make a really "important" phone call: "You won't believe what my boyfriend did! He ran up my cell phone bill texting his ex girlfriend and now I can't afford that tattoo I was saving up for!"
A private business would have lost me as a customer at this point, but alas, Governmental monopoly so I don't have the luxury of doing business with someone else.
Patriotism is bigotry.
Love of my country makes me a bigot? Quite the sweeping statement you've made there.
Ah. Usually when people advocate that they are advocating protectionism for domestic industries (i.e: the big 3)
Yes, I think that someone who has a potentially viable business plan should be allowed to try and execute that business plan with a minimal amount of governmental interference. Make them put up the money to repair the streets in trust and then get the fuck out of their way.
Ah, blaming the victim.
Ah, selective hearing. It's ironic that you quoted me and still only read part of my sentence. If you'd bothered to read it all you would have seen that I blamed poor lending standards as well as people who wanted to live beyond their means.
Sell people on loans -- for commissions, of course -- regardless of the borrower's chances of being able to keep up with it
And the borrower doesn't share in the responsbility in that scenario? Would you take out a loan that you had no chance of being able to repay even if the bank was willing to let you do it?
they only cry to blame the citizenry while simultaneously begging for handouts from them
The citizenry does share some of the blame here. Have you seen the neighborhoods in CA and FL that were hardest hit by this? They are all filled with McMansions that invariably had two SUVs in the driveway and at least one big screen TV in the house. I have very little sympathy for this "keep up with the Jones'" manner of living.
The people trying to absolve Main Street of blame in this crisis are just as bad as the people trying to absolve Wall Street. We all fucked up. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we can start fixing the mess we've created.
But they've gone from lending to everyone and his hairy dog to not loaning to anyone at all.
Car dealerships are having trouble because nobody can get a car loan.
*shrug*, that hasn't been my experience. I opened a $5,000 line of credit with my credit union last month (after I found out that Chase would be closing the existing one that I had with WaMu even though it's four years old and in good standing -- bastards) and my girlfriend just financed a $18,000 car. I've heard similiar stories locally and on the national level.
The big lenders have pulled back but the community banks and credit unions are still lending. The difference between them and the big boys is that they never got into the subprime mess to begin with -- they aren't "too big to fail" so they actually had to have lending standards. If you only qualified for a 'subprime' before then you probably won't get financing in this environment -- but I'm not convinced that's a bad thing. The people with good credit are still getting financing.
What if several people want to dig up the same major road at various times. No attempts to protect existing infrastructure from damage, or force companies to publicly document where their lines are going? Just nothing... a wild-west mentality toward building infrastructure.
WTF? I say "If they think they can do it profitably and clean up after themselves then why not allow it?" and you think I'm in favor of a wild west mentality?
I should be obvious to anyone who isn't pushing an agenda that I wasn't advocating just letting any old slob with a jackhammer and some cat5 start tearing up the roads. I would presume that they'd still need to meet local codes and get building permits. I would presume that they'd have to pay to have the street repaved after it was torn up -- in the same manner that my existing natural gas or water utilities have to pay if they rip up the road. I would presume that they'd have to respect existing infrastructure in the same manner as anyone who is building anything has to respect existing infrastructure.
What you seem to have missed or just ignored is the fact that even if you had a business plan that would meet all of the above requirements and wanted to enter a new market you would be shut out from doing so by a government backed monopoly.
2) tell the homeowners "you lucked out; you own your home free and clear."
Fuck that shit. I have no goddamn sympathy for people who bought more home than they could afford. This notion that the rest of us have to bail them out is infuriating. If I had known the Government was going to bail out bad mortgages I would have stopped paying mine months ago.
1) tell the investors "tough shit, you made a bad investment, you lose your shirt"
I'd be ok with that.
I'm a proud member of the center. Where do you fall, honestly?
On economics issues? Mostly in the center. I believe in the free market and think that Government generally does a piss poor job of trying to manage things -- but some regulation is usually called for. The difference between most liberals and myself is that I've been involved in running a business and I can recognize that all regulation imposes a higher cost of doing business. Thus I only support regulation when the net benefit to society is greater than the economic impact of the regulation. As a random example I'm sure that Jiffy Lube could provide cheaper oil changes if they were allowed to dump the used oil in the river -- but few people would advocate that as being a good solution.
On civil liberties I'm a staunch civil libertarian. I believe in all aspects of the Bill of Rights and this places me at odds with both political parties. Democrats on guns and Republicans on wiretapping.
On foreign policy I'm more of a mixed bag. I toy with the idea of wanting to see the United States return to our non-interventionist/non-aligned roots (notice how nobody is flying airplanes into Swiss buildings) but I question if such a thing is feasible in the modern world.
Ever heard of the political compass? It's a as good of an indication of where you lie on the political map as any other. I score a +1.38 on economics and -2.82 on social. I used to score around a -6/-5 before I became a recovering liberal ;)
Energy independence Stimulus Package. Tax rebates for people who buy cars made in America
That won't stimulate the economy. That will spark a trade war with our European and Asian trading partners and the resulting decline in industries that rely on imports/exports will more than outweigh the resulting increase in Detroit.
We need more production and less consumption
Hmm.......
Allow every company that wants to dig up whatever infrastructure they want wherever they want?
If they think they can do it profitably and clean up after themselves then why not allow it?
than a government administered network whose goal is public service
You'll forgive me if my experiences with DMV don't inspire confidence in the ability of government to run anything.
However, savings accounts earn such a low rate of return that with any inflation at all it costs money to have it in savings.
Who said a savings account is the only place you can park your money?
as it is embarassing that I let it happen to me
Don't feel too bad. I wound up filing Chapter 7. Some of it (medical bills) was beyond my control but most of it was caused by my own stupidity.
The way to stimulate the economy is to get the banks lending [slashdot.org] again and get consumers spending again.
Ah, the hair of the dog. Wasn't it poor lending standards and people living beyond their means (i.e: greed on everyone's part) that got us into this mess? Just once I'd like to hear somebody talking about people needing to save in addition to talking about them needing to spend....
I have plenty of liberal friends, and I'm still not attracted to the ideology at all
It's a sad reflection on the political discourse of the modern world that Americans actually have to state that we have friends who hold differing political views.
You can tell the US needs a network upgrade when I'm halfway around the world away getting the first post on a dial-up?
Guess we don't need the upgrade cuz you didn't get the first post ;) Thanks for confirming that our tubes are working properly and saving Uncle Sam a cool $10,000,000,000.00!
They don't think government can help with anything.
Do you think the government issuing franchises that creates monopolies backed by the power of the state has helped?
Only another few hundred In Soviet Russia jokes to scroll through before you start to get to original content.
In Soviet Russia, joke scrolls YOU
(Yeah, that was bad ;)
I'm thinking it was my fault. I was reading Shakrai's journal, went to post a reply, and bam, no more slashdot.
My bad. Sorry ;)
No, the Large Hadron Collider already provoke a Time-Space anomaly.
So that's what John de Lancie has been up to since Stargate SG-1 ended. I always knew the human race would be judged for our barbarism.
You are already required to carry a form of photo-Id anytime you're on public property, driving or not. I don't know if it's a Federal law yet, but it's a law where I live and the cops here consider it probable cause.
I'd like to see a citation for that. If it's a law where you live then you need to work on getting that law changed.