It's like we're trying to protect the entire world. In spite of the fact that most of the world doesn't want our protection.
We are trying to protect the entire world. The US has security alliances with virtually all of Europe, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Australia, New Zealand, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Israel, Pakistan, Morocco and Canada. That's just off the top of my head, I suspect I've neglected a few....
And the sad thing is that while this country drowns in debt, taxes are at their lowest in decades.
You mean income taxes are at their lowest in decades. If you consider property/sales/FICA/excise/blah/blah/blah taxes the picture looks very different. It's entirely possible to live in one of the higher taxed states (my own state comes to mind, NY) as a non-rich person and lose close to 50% of your income to taxes when all is said and done.
Whether you agree with Obama or not, he's been very thoroughly devoted to trying to compromise.
No he hasn't. It might seem that way if you sit on the left side of the political fence but most of those in the center do NOT see it that way at all. The health care bill was written by the Democratic leadership and forced on the rank and file. Even their own rank and file didn't get a say on it, never mind the other political party. "We have to pass the bill to know what's in it." Really? Are you kidding me?
The combination of the HCR debate and stimulus bill killed the independent enthusiasm for the Democrats. These people didn't vote for Barack Obama because they wanted the country to be governed from the left. They voted for him because they were sick of GWB and assumed that McCain/Palin represented more of the same.
And to be fair, Lincoln suspended habeas corpus just as the constitution allows him to "...when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it."
Actually that section comes under Article I, which describes the powers and limits of the Congress, not the Executive. POTUS has zero authority to suspend or otherwise ignore habeas corpus.
Boner says his primary goal is to destroy the health care bill just passed. With one chamber, he's going to have his work cut out for him, particularly since he will be kicking a lot of kids out of cancer therapy and onto the curb to do it.
The House originates revenue bills. If they were willing to stick to their guns (which I doubt they are but that's another matter) they could easily destroy the health care bill.
Personally, I don't care what they do, as long as they kill the individual mandate. I would prefer to see it repealed through legislation but am enough of a realist to know that isn't likely to happen until 2012 or later. In the interim they can kill it by denying the IRS the funds to implement it.
The refund that I received was accurate. Actually it was 'inaccurate' in that they had already given me credits for these charges but it was 'accurate' in that they properly credited me for all the fees I was charged plus the taxes on those fees.
YMMV of course. If you were an affected customer and the refund doesn't match up with what you were charged then dispute it with VZW.
And you've received it. The affected customers are getting refunds. Verizon paid $25,000,000 to the US Treasury. I'm sorry if that isn't good enough for you.
Your entire argument is that they couldn't tell the difference, but suddenly with this settlement, they know exactly who and how much?
This is the third or forth time you've implied that they aren't acting in good faith with regards to these refunds. Do you have any evidence of this or do you simply believe in "guilty until proven innocent" for corporate transgressions?
All too often the punishments for things like this are smaller than the profits made through them
"All too often"? Way to generalize!
Exactly how much proof do you need?
I want proof that this was a deliberate effort on Verizon's part to screw people over. You can't offer such proof because you don't have it. Your main point of contention seems to be the fact that they never notified their customers about this issue and that somehow proves fraud. You have no timeline for when management became aware of the problem nor do you have a timeline for when the problem was fixed. It would seem to me that you would need that information before you can level a fraud charge based on the lack of notification.
We all know how SCOTUS feels about things like "rights" and "human dignity."
I dunno, the last two years have been pretty good for the 1st and 2nd amendments at SCOTUS. They aren't perfect and they get it wrong some of the time but I'm not sure I can share your pessimism.
I just want to see accountability from corporations, which is seriously lacking, which we've seen in case after case for years.
What kind of "accountability" do you think is called for here? They refunded the money that people were incorrectly charged. They paid an eight digit fine for their transgressions. What more should happen?
At some level, someone decided not to tell anyone about these overcharges.
Another charge for which you offer zero proof. Yawn.
I'm not aware of any law that restricts the sale of 'R' rated movies. I am aware of several corporate policies that restrict such sales. Wal-Mart is notorious for this -- I've watched the Wally World drones card people for 'R' rated movies while letting the next person buy beer without being carded.
Is there an actual law on the books somewhere that restricts the sale of 'R' rated movies?
You assume that "they" had any clue what was going on. Ever worked for a large corporation? Do you honestly believe this problem was on management's radar at the beginning? You have a handful of customers that are complaining about a $1.99 charge. The vast majority of those charges WERE legitimate (data usage for application downloads and web browsing).
Verizon could have avoided this whole mess if they had simply treated all data the same. For better or worse they decided to give some of it away for free. It worked fine for most customers but their billing system wasn't completely up to the task and some customers got charged when they shouldn't have been. Those people have now been made whole.
I'm at a loss to understand why you think this was deliberate fraud, other than your ideology and hatred of all things corporate.
If Verizon had a way to determine the legitimate from illegitimate charges you would have a point. As I explained in my earlier post they had no real way to separate legitimate data charges (mobile web browsing, application downloads, etc.) from charges for data that was supposed to be "free" (backup assistant, my verizon, etc.)
That was the whole crux of the problem. They got the idea of billing $1.99/MB for data (previously data sessions used plan minutes) and sometime after the fact decided to give away some of that data for free. On the previous plans all data incurred minute charges. On the new plans some data was supposed to be free, but it took them awhile to iron out the kinks in their billing system.
You can keep living in your world where this was a deliberate attempt on the part of Verizon to commit fraud but I'm taking you less and less seriously as you continue to decline every invitation to back up your accusations with proof.
They refunded it instantly for the people who bothered to read their bills and disputed the charges.
You're trying to pin the blame on Verizon's customers.
They share part of the blame if they can't be bothered to review their bills for accuracy.
You're really straining to try to make them seem innocent on this one
Keep putting words in my mouth. I've just disputed your claims that they committed fraud. You still can't back up those claims with actual evidence of wrongdoing so I'm not going to waste any further time trying to debunk them.
I know, he wasn't ordered to do it, it just occurs to me that he COULD have been.
Actually, Scotty or one of his colleagues should have been ordered to do it. No sense in the XO abandoning his bridge post during a crisis when the engineering staff is (or should be) capable of addressing the problem.
Again, you make claims with no evidence to back them up.
and did nothing to even warn their customers about the possibility of an overcharge on their bill due to problems with their billing system
It's your own responsibility to review your bill for accuracy.
but instead just continued to collect the money and say nothing
Actually, they eventually fixed the problem with their billing system and agreed to offer refunds to the impacted customers. I've not personally observed this problem in over a year. I suppose you are entitled to keep believing that they "did nothing" if that better fits into your ideology though:)
The fees are legitimate. Read the contract you signed. Verizon bills you $1.99 per MB of data, rounded up. You knew that going in, or at least you should have if you bothered to read the agreement that you signed.
What's not legitimate is that the fees were applied towards data that was supposed to be free. Verizon has a bunch of data categories (backup assistant, My Verizon, OTA software updates, etc.) that aren't supposed to be billed but wound up being billed anyway for one reason or another. I've heard explanations ranging from billing system issues (it's worth noting that it wasn't that long ago that Verizon finally got a unified billing system, previously each market had it's own billing system) to software glitches on the phones themselves.
Either way, it's a huge leap from "billing system and/or software bugs" to "fraud" and it would be less inflammatory if you could back up such an accusation with proof. Of course you can't do that -- you are just assuming that because they are "big scary evil corporation" that this was some deliberate attempt to screw people over rather than an honest mistake.
I wonder why China lets that happen, as it would be trivial for them to ban any data coverage in this area and/or report any suspicious activity to the North Korean authorities. Maybe it's a way for them to put some pressure on their North Korean "ally", which has become somewhat of an embarrasment to them lately.
Maybe they use it as a cheap and easy way to get their own information out of the country?
Ah, but I'm not the one trying to claim that fraud happened, now am I? I suppose backing your claims with evidence is too much to ask for?
Why the hell would someone want to sue Verizon over a $1.99 fee that was (in my experience) refunded without any hassle when the customer complained about it?
It was shot on a cheap camera by a man who goes by the pseudonym Kim Dong-cheol, a North Korean with a double life. In addition to his job as a driver for a company, Kim also works as a clandestine reporter for AsiaPress, a Japanese news agency that's taken advantage of the digital electronics revolution to get reports from inside North Korea.
Slashdot Mirror
It's like we're trying to protect the entire world. In spite of the fact that most of the world doesn't want our protection.
We are trying to protect the entire world. The US has security alliances with virtually all of Europe, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Australia, New Zealand, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Israel, Pakistan, Morocco and Canada. That's just off the top of my head, I suspect I've neglected a few....
And the sad thing is that while this country drowns in debt, taxes are at their lowest in decades.
You mean income taxes are at their lowest in decades. If you consider property/sales/FICA/excise/blah/blah/blah taxes the picture looks very different. It's entirely possible to live in one of the higher taxed states (my own state comes to mind, NY) as a non-rich person and lose close to 50% of your income to taxes when all is said and done.
Whether you agree with Obama or not, he's been very thoroughly devoted to trying to compromise.
No he hasn't. It might seem that way if you sit on the left side of the political fence but most of those in the center do NOT see it that way at all. The health care bill was written by the Democratic leadership and forced on the rank and file. Even their own rank and file didn't get a say on it, never mind the other political party. "We have to pass the bill to know what's in it." Really? Are you kidding me?
The combination of the HCR debate and stimulus bill killed the independent enthusiasm for the Democrats. These people didn't vote for Barack Obama because they wanted the country to be governed from the left. They voted for him because they were sick of GWB and assumed that McCain/Palin represented more of the same.
And to be fair, Lincoln suspended habeas corpus just as the constitution allows him to "...when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it."
Actually that section comes under Article I, which describes the powers and limits of the Congress, not the Executive. POTUS has zero authority to suspend or otherwise ignore habeas corpus.
Boner says his primary goal is to destroy the health care bill just passed. With one chamber, he's going to have his work cut out for him, particularly since he will be kicking a lot of kids out of cancer therapy and onto the curb to do it.
The House originates revenue bills. If they were willing to stick to their guns (which I doubt they are but that's another matter) they could easily destroy the health care bill.
Personally, I don't care what they do, as long as they kill the individual mandate. I would prefer to see it repealed through legislation but am enough of a realist to know that isn't likely to happen until 2012 or later. In the interim they can kill it by denying the IRS the funds to implement it.
The refund that I received was accurate. Actually it was 'inaccurate' in that they had already given me credits for these charges but it was 'accurate' in that they properly credited me for all the fees I was charged plus the taxes on those fees.
YMMV of course. If you were an affected customer and the refund doesn't match up with what you were charged then dispute it with VZW.
Neither. Kids buying 'R' rated movies are a problem for parents, not Washington and/or Sacramento.
I'm asking for accountability, not assurances.
And you've received it. The affected customers are getting refunds. Verizon paid $25,000,000 to the US Treasury. I'm sorry if that isn't good enough for you.
Your entire argument is that they couldn't tell the difference, but suddenly with this settlement, they know exactly who and how much?
This is the third or forth time you've implied that they aren't acting in good faith with regards to these refunds. Do you have any evidence of this or do you simply believe in "guilty until proven innocent" for corporate transgressions?
All too often the punishments for things like this are smaller than the profits made through them
"All too often"? Way to generalize!
Exactly how much proof do you need?
I want proof that this was a deliberate effort on Verizon's part to screw people over. You can't offer such proof because you don't have it. Your main point of contention seems to be the fact that they never notified their customers about this issue and that somehow proves fraud. You have no timeline for when management became aware of the problem nor do you have a timeline for when the problem was fixed. It would seem to me that you would need that information before you can level a fraud charge based on the lack of notification.
We all know how SCOTUS feels about things like "rights" and "human dignity."
I dunno, the last two years have been pretty good for the 1st and 2nd amendments at SCOTUS. They aren't perfect and they get it wrong some of the time but I'm not sure I can share your pessimism.
I just want to see accountability from corporations, which is seriously lacking, which we've seen in case after case for years.
What kind of "accountability" do you think is called for here? They refunded the money that people were incorrectly charged. They paid an eight digit fine for their transgressions. What more should happen?
At some level, someone decided not to tell anyone about these overcharges.
Another charge for which you offer zero proof. Yawn.
Scalia is more partial to Duck Hunt, particularly when he hangs out with Dick Cheney ;)
I'm not aware of any law that restricts the sale of 'R' rated movies. I am aware of several corporate policies that restrict such sales. Wal-Mart is notorious for this -- I've watched the Wally World drones card people for 'R' rated movies while letting the next person buy beer without being carded.
Is there an actual law on the books somewhere that restricts the sale of 'R' rated movies?
You assume that "they" had any clue what was going on. Ever worked for a large corporation? Do you honestly believe this problem was on management's radar at the beginning? You have a handful of customers that are complaining about a $1.99 charge. The vast majority of those charges WERE legitimate (data usage for application downloads and web browsing).
Verizon could have avoided this whole mess if they had simply treated all data the same. For better or worse they decided to give some of it away for free. It worked fine for most customers but their billing system wasn't completely up to the task and some customers got charged when they shouldn't have been. Those people have now been made whole.
I'm at a loss to understand why you think this was deliberate fraud, other than your ideology and hatred of all things corporate.
If Verizon had a way to determine the legitimate from illegitimate charges you would have a point. As I explained in my earlier post they had no real way to separate legitimate data charges (mobile web browsing, application downloads, etc.) from charges for data that was supposed to be "free" (backup assistant, my verizon, etc.)
That was the whole crux of the problem. They got the idea of billing $1.99/MB for data (previously data sessions used plan minutes) and sometime after the fact decided to give away some of that data for free. On the previous plans all data incurred minute charges. On the new plans some data was supposed to be free, but it took them awhile to iron out the kinks in their billing system.
You can keep living in your world where this was a deliberate attempt on the part of Verizon to commit fraud but I'm taking you less and less seriously as you continue to decline every invitation to back up your accusations with proof.
Years later, after they got sued by the FCC.
They refunded it instantly for the people who bothered to read their bills and disputed the charges.
You're trying to pin the blame on Verizon's customers.
They share part of the blame if they can't be bothered to review their bills for accuracy.
You're really straining to try to make them seem innocent on this one
Keep putting words in my mouth. I've just disputed your claims that they committed fraud. You still can't back up those claims with actual evidence of wrongdoing so I'm not going to waste any further time trying to debunk them.
They were the ones overcharging people and keeping the money.
Except they refunded the money.
So you're saying they aren't responsible for alerting customers when they know they have a billing problem that could affect them?
I said nothing of the kind, all I said was that it's your responsibility to review your bill for accuracy.
Meanwhile we only have their word to go on that they're refunding the proper amounts to everyone that should get a refund
If you think they are lying you have a remedy through a civil lawsuit and the discovery process. Otherwise it's just another unproven accusation.
I know, he wasn't ordered to do it, it just occurs to me that he COULD have been.
Actually, Scotty or one of his colleagues should have been ordered to do it. No sense in the XO abandoning his bridge post during a crisis when the engineering staff is (or should be) capable of addressing the problem.
they deliberately allowed it to continue
Again, you make claims with no evidence to back them up.
and did nothing to even warn their customers about the possibility of an overcharge on their bill due to problems with their billing system
It's your own responsibility to review your bill for accuracy.
but instead just continued to collect the money and say nothing
Actually, they eventually fixed the problem with their billing system and agreed to offer refunds to the impacted customers. I've not personally observed this problem in over a year. I suppose you are entitled to keep believing that they "did nothing" if that better fits into your ideology though :)
I'm not justifying anything, I'm only calling BS on your unproven accusations of fraud. Fraud:
deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.
Unless you can prove that Verizon deliberately did this there is no "fraud" here. Billing errors != fraud
The fees are legitimate. Read the contract you signed. Verizon bills you $1.99 per MB of data, rounded up. You knew that going in, or at least you should have if you bothered to read the agreement that you signed.
What's not legitimate is that the fees were applied towards data that was supposed to be free. Verizon has a bunch of data categories (backup assistant, My Verizon, OTA software updates, etc.) that aren't supposed to be billed but wound up being billed anyway for one reason or another. I've heard explanations ranging from billing system issues (it's worth noting that it wasn't that long ago that Verizon finally got a unified billing system, previously each market had it's own billing system) to software glitches on the phones themselves.
Either way, it's a huge leap from "billing system and/or software bugs" to "fraud" and it would be less inflammatory if you could back up such an accusation with proof. Of course you can't do that -- you are just assuming that because they are "big scary evil corporation" that this was some deliberate attempt to screw people over rather than an honest mistake.
I wonder why China lets that happen, as it would be trivial for them to ban any data coverage in this area and/or report any suspicious activity to the North Korean authorities. Maybe it's a way for them to put some pressure on their North Korean "ally", which has become somewhat of an embarrasment to them lately.
Maybe they use it as a cheap and easy way to get their own information out of the country?
Ah, but I'm not the one trying to claim that fraud happened, now am I? I suppose backing your claims with evidence is too much to ask for?
Why the hell would someone want to sue Verizon over a $1.99 fee that was (in my experience) refunded without any hassle when the customer complained about it?
From TFA, emphasis mine:
It was shot on a cheap camera by a man who goes by the pseudonym Kim Dong-cheol, a North Korean with a double life. In addition to his job as a driver for a company, Kim also works as a clandestine reporter for AsiaPress, a Japanese news agency that's taken advantage of the digital electronics revolution to get reports from inside North Korea.
Yeah I fucked that up. Whoops.